User talk:ARR8

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Hello, ARR8! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. If you are familiar with Wikipedia, take a look over some of the differences here.

Thanks for improving Staten Island and other articles. --ϒpsilon (talk) 05:22, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

I'd like to add my welcome and thanks. Being new doesn't in any way diminish your right to have opinions and participate in discussions. With time, you'll learn more about how Wikivoyage works and its history, and that will give you better perspective on issues that are up for discussion, but in the meantime, for don't hold back. Ground Zero (talk) 06:15, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
I think Ground Zero means don't hold back, and if so, I would agree. Thank for making an immediate impact. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:54, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
Thanks all. I appreciate the kind words and advice. ARR8 (talk) 16:35, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
Yes, and thanks for your work on the Bucks County article. Converting content to listings is not a fun task, but you were doing it and really improving the quality of the article. Keep contributing, --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 22:47, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Listings in country articles[edit]

Hi, ARR8. Your work is great! One small thing, though: Listing templates are used in city articles. In country articles, what's exceptional should be highlighted, but as a prose summary with a link to the city or other destinations article where it has a listing. Otherwise, someone is liable to slap a "movetocity" tag on the article, and someone else will have to undo your work.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:19, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: Are you referring to Trinidad and Tobago? I know the policy; I didn't add those listings. When the conversation about the article began in the pub, I waited until someone else did, and added IDs under the assumption the listings would be moved to the appropriate articles later. I probably could have explained that in the edit summaries, though.
If you're talking about a different article, then it does sound like I made a mistake. Otherwise, thanks for keeping an eye on things. ARR8 (talk) 02:04, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
Yes, Trinidad and Tobago. And now that I understand what you're doing, I simply thank you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:38, 7 October 2018 (UTC)



Reverts of redirects by White Star Shipbuilder[edit]

Any insight into your reasons for these? Do you suspect this user of being someone's sockpuppet? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:40, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I do. ARR8 (talk) 21:43, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
I see. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:44, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Edition of Aqaba[edit]

Hi there.

Thanks for your edit of Aqaba. Could you please in the future verify the data quality of Wikidata? Unfortunately, we found that the GPS information of Wikivoyage often is much better than Wikidata. Just adding the WD tag lightly will overwrite the existing GPS information with the WD one. Hence, before adding the WD code, just head over to WD and verify whether the GPS is legit. If not, just copy the Wikivoyage information there.

I corrected the WD information for the flagpole now - took the information from Openstreetmap directly.

Many thank, Ceever (talk) 21:20, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Hi, @Ceever: Thanks for keeping an eye on the article. Unfortunately, I'm not really understanding what you're trying to say or what you changed. I always check Wikidata coordinates unless they are very close to the previous coordinates. In this case, they were the same, but missing some slight decimal precision, which in most cases doesn't matter, as the marker will show up in the same place. For a flagpole, which is a single point, I can see how that would matter, so mea culpa for not checking more closely.
However, it seems to me that you just removed the coordinates, but somehow there's still a marker there, and I'm not really sure what you're asking, or who "we" is. Are you saying that the Wikidata coordinates were wrong? In the future, if you find that some coordinates on Wikidata are slightly off, why not change them there and then update the listing? Seems to me that it would benefit everyone, including other languages' Wikivoyages. Also, how exactly are the coordinates defined now, if not through the listing? Thanks, ARR8 (talk) 21:33, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
I corrected the GPS information on the WD side. The pole position of the former WD was off about 50 m. Sure, this might seem not much, but were do you draw the line? Nowadays, I think there is no issue being 2-5 m exact, which is the actual GPS accuracy (isnt it?). We have discussed the terrible WD quality in the pub and agreed that when updating the WD code, it is meaningful to verify the quality of the WD (GPS) information.
Just think of all the people that put a tremendous amount of work in putting down a high quality GPS tag here at Wikivoyage, and this just gets erased like that because we lightly link the WD code. Actually, WD should profit from the good WV quality, shouldn't it? But it cannot if editors do not carry the quality over to WD.
Regarding the missing GPS, if you remove the GPS, it is taken from WD directly. I do not know which is better. Feel free to recopy it again.
Cheers, Ceever (talk) 22:03, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
Okay, I see, thank you. I generally do check the coordinates and choose the better of the two, but it seems my intuition of when to check is calibrated for buildings. I'll recalibrate accordingly.
Also, I didn't know that coordinates were optional. That's very good information to have, and relevant to what I do here, so thank you. ARR8 (talk) 22:12, 28 October 2018 (UTC)


I archived the discussion somewhere on Wikivoyage where vandals are unlikely to see it.

Actually, the Wikibreak I took recently has helped, at least so far. I've also hidden some revisions; it's not perfect, but you get the idea. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 02:37, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. To be perfectly honest, I'm generally inclined to openness, and prefer to have as much publicly archived as possible, so I'm not enthusiastic about the deny "policy." I think of it as a necessary evil. Hopefully, one day, these measures won't be needed. ARR8 (talk) 02:55, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I would too. I don't like the idea of being secretive, but unfortunately it's sometimes the "necessary evil", as you say. As you know, I've historically been pretty bad at dealing with all these vandals, and when someone sounds genuinely sorry, it seems cruel not to forgive them. But many of these vandals aren't ordinary people; most normal people don't want to spend their life wrecking positive websites. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:01, 2 December 2018 (UTC)


Would you like to be a patroller, which would give you 1-click rollbacks you could use for a series of vandalistic edits? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:03, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Sure, that would be useful. Hopefully I won't have occasion to use it. ARR8 (talk) 01:11, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
OK, I'll change your status right away. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:27, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
Sounds good! I agree with you (Ikan Kekek) that we should have more patrollers, since it's a good intermediate position between admin and autopatroller that doesn't require a nomination or huge amounts of experience or trust. However, Ypsilon doesn't want to be a patroller (see talk page), and I asked K7L if he/she wanted to be a patroller and got no response.
Anyone else who could be patroller? We have some good contributors, like City-busz and Heisy Bordel, who add a lot of stuff and make great autopatrollers, but until they revert vandalism, there is little point in giving them patroller status. I don't mean this in a bad way to either them, and both have done great work so far (same goes for Mbrickn), but patrol status is not appropriate yet. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 06:36, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
By the way, there's a list of patrollers here. I don't need to be a patroller, since I'm an admin, but there's nothing I can do about that. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 06:50, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
I agree with you. Patroller is a useful status for someone who's already reverting vandalism, not for anyone else. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:24, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
Yes, and ARR8 has reverted vandalism. By the way, could you remove my patroller status since I don't need it anymore? I can't add or remove the status. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 14:51, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
As for me, I was frequently reverting vandalism on Wikidata as well as Wikivoyage, and fought vandals a few times on Commons and Wikipedia. Personally, I think the best course of action here is to attract cross-wiki contributors. I haven't got a clue how to do that, though. I don't think we'll get much latitude out of asking users who are here to write prose about travel to devote time to fighting vandals. Some of our best users are primarily involved in other Wikimedia projects but spend a decent chunk of their wiki contributions here, and I'm sure others would do the same if they knew how they could help. ARR8 (talk) 15:39, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
Selfie, I removed your patroller status. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:56, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @Ikan Kekek: Thanks. ARR8, I agree that's a good way to get more contributors. However, I tried to get interest from a speedway fan to contribute to the Speedway article, with no results. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:12, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for being on the ball[edit]

Your help is greatly appreciated. Have a wonderful holiday season and enjoy your travels :-) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:49, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, and happy holidays to you, too! ARR8 (talk | contribs) 23:55, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the Barncompass and noticing all of the work that I was doing with the pagebanners and Wikidata. It is very appreciated! Zcarstvnz (talk) 21:18, 20 January 2019 (UTC)


Hey, I saw you undid my edit on the ocean city, nj page, which had deleted an entry. My thought was that since the entry in question was 50 miles north of OC, it would be more suited to the seaside heights area of wikivoyage, rather than ocean city. Thoughts? --Solardrum (talk) 17:01, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

@Solardrum: Sure, go ahead and put it in the closest destination article. Generally, we don't put listings anywhere except destinations, though, so I wouldn't put it in a region or county. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 17:50, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
Hi @Solardrum: It always helps others if you give reasons for your edits in the edit summary box, then misunderstandings like this are kept to a minimum. Welcome to Wikivoyage and thanks for your edits :-) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:55, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
Danke mucho, @ThunderingTyphoons: & @ARR8:. Should've been more clear about why I changed it. Having some trouble with figuring out how to change the map on the page. Since with that one entry, it was showing another town entirely and I can't figure out how to make the map show OC. --Solardrum (talk) 18:00, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
@Solardrum: See the documentation at {{mapframe}}. It needs center coordinates and a zoom level; you can play around with it using the page preview button to make incremental changes. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 18:05, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Kosovo & statehood[edit]

Hello. The IP was mine. So you know (answering to your summary), the State of Palestine was declared in 1988 and is recognised by 137 UN member states, and two non-UN states (Vatican & Western Sahara). It trumps Kosovo hands down but if you look at the way the article is presented, it is totally framed as if written by Zionist apologists persons with a pro-Israeli outlook. I am not interested in representing one point heavier than the other, only a balanced outlook. For example, on Wikipedia. we say Kosovo is a "partially recognised state" or a "disputed territory". As you see with Palestine, it is not a "first past the post" scheme. The 40%+ of the world not to recognise Kosovo takes this matter well beyond fringe theories. I am happy to come to some form of solution with you. --Juicy Oranges (talk) 15:59, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

@Juicy Oranges: I am acting without regards to my own opinion on the matter. Per our policy, if you add something, which another editor reverts, you cannot put it back without discussion. There is a discussion started at Talk:Kosovo, which you have been invited to join.
I will not say anything further on the matter on this page. I must say, though, that your original edit seemed neutral enough to me, but your subsequent edits are forcing me to reconsider that. Also, really - "Zionoist apologists"? ARR8 (talk | contribs) 16:05, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
All right leave that one with me, I realise that was lame. And yes I am happy to carry on talking at the main talk page. Regards. --Juicy Oranges (talk) 16:13, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Sorry friend, I was totally ignorant here. Apart from that, let me know on Talk:Kosovo how you'd feel about about a presentation intro akin to Crimea. Then we can slowly bring it back to how it was (e.g. I'll remove "administrative" before "border"). --Juicy Oranges (talk) 16:29, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for being open to discussion. I think the best thing to do now is to let the text of the article stand as-is while discussion happens. Wikivoyage is consensus-driven, and, generally, now is the time for other editors to weigh in. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 16:35, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Agreed. --Juicy Oranges (talk) 16:48, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Editor mode[edit]

Discussions have continued in the pub, so having enabled the listing editor, I have responded here.

I have enabled the new listing editor and looks fine, though hardly different. Am I missing something? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:42, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Aha, I was in the listing creation tool. I'm now editing a listing and I get a different interface. Thanks for the work! --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:45, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
@SelfieCity: Glad to hear it! ARR8 (talk | contribs) 03:46, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
However, I'm not quite sure about how the sync with Wikidata works. So far, when I've tested, it doesn't seem that I get any additional information from Wikidata, only decide what to include; for example, no new fields. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 04:46, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
@SelfieCity: Can you provide an example? ARR8 (talk | contribs) 16:31, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
I was going to provide number 4 in Pleasanton#Do, Brushy Peak Regional Preserve, but it actually looks like in that case there is no additional Wikidata info to collect. Perhaps it is just that in the cases I have tested, there was no new information to add. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:52, 2 February 2019 (UTC)


A few months ago I remember having a discussion with you and you felt it was still too early to become administrator. Since then, you've done more good stuff, including some hard work on the listing editor. I no longer see the sense in holding you back from the position of administrator, which I believe would help you even more do great work for this wiki. It's entirely up to you, but you've done a good job on this wiki so far and it seems only foolish to keep holding back the admin position when you've gotten to be a great help to this wiki so quickly.

Thanks for your contributions,

--Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:50, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Seconded. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:22, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Thirded. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:28, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
I'm with these others on this question. Great work, you. Ground Zero (talk) 04:58, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
@SelfieCity, AndreCarrotflower, Ikan Kekek, Ground Zero: Wow. I have to say I'm touched by this show of support. Well, I'm convinced; I'll accept a nomination if somebody would like to open one. Thanks very much, and it's been a pleasure editing with this community. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 18:59, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Paragraph removal in Christianity[edit]

Thanks for removing the paragraph in Christianity, which was mostly irrelevant to travel.

However, I think the last sentence, "As such, Christians generally believe that the only way one can be cleansed of sin and avoid eternal damnation is through belief in Jesus Christ" is important and the concept should probably be included somewhere else, if it's not already. If that's already covered somewhere else in the article, then there are no problems.

Otherwise, the paragraph was irrelevant for the traveler and thanks for finding it and removing it! --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:45, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

template mapbanner[edit]

I see you are editing a version called Sandbox. I have been editing a version called sandbox and have updated the active one for mobile. So we do not clash I will stop editing for today in this area. --Traveler100 (talk) 17:33, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

@Traveler100: Should be fine. The two differ by case. The first-letter-case-insensitivity of article titles does not apply to subpages, I'm led to understand. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 17:39, 10 February 2019 (UTC)


Moved to Template talk:Bottomboxes#Mobile display so others can read. --Traveler100 (talk) 08:51, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Policy and violations thereof[edit]

That there are violations of Wikivoyage policy and style is the worst possible justification for reverting a change that brings an article in compliance with it.

I know that we do not always use "See and Do" because I have corrected many instances of it. There are lots of instances of touting that have not been removed, and we never accept them as justification for allowing new touting.

I do not wish to edit war, but the WV:sh policy is clear here. Ground Zero (talk) 08:11, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

It's pretty easy to find examples of "See and do" headings that comply with the policy:

And this isn't even the completely list. I'm reverting your incorrect formatting. Ground Zero (talk) 08:58, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Are you referring to changes like this. If that's the case, to clarify, ARR8: we go with {{eat}} rather than {{listing|eat}}. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 14:52, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
SelfieCity, the listing templates are an unrelated topic that is being discussed elsewhere (1 2). For what it's worth I agree that "See and do" is the right capitalization, though I've certainly seen the other capitalization as well so I'm not surprised that ARR8 has too. Thanks to all three of you for your hard work improving the site. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:11, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
You mean, this whole thing is about capitalizing the listings? I definitely think this needs to be resolved. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:16, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
@SelfieCity: No, that is another unrelated topic. This is about special:diff/3727904. As far as I'm concerned, I consider the matter resolved. @Ground Zero: I thank you for pointing this out to me. I had been using Manchester as my example. When I'm not sure about the de facto practice of something here, I try to find a high-profile article with the appropriate detail and imitate that. There are certainly instances - I can think of a couple - of policies which are no longer strictly followed and, de facto, a "new" policy is observed. The first counterexample was sufficient here, and I'll scratch this one off my list of informal policies. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 15:38, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for your kindness about the issue of the capitalization of these headings, but because this is such a minor issue, I think we should go ahead with your administrator nomination. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:29, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
I've been here a couple of years now, and I'm still learning new things. I don't see this as having any impact on ARR8's admin nomination, which I support. Ground Zero (talk) 17:39, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
Yes, sorry, I saw the original comment here and thought it was a more serious issue than it actually way. Sorry about that. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:34, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Administrator nomination[edit]

Congratulations and welcome to the team! -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:39, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Thank you very much! ARR8 (talk | contribs) 01:39, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
It's great news, and big congrats! It will be great to have another warrior against vandalism and another assistant in vfd and other operations where an admin is required. Thanks for all your hard work. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:41, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
49th of many, I hope. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 01:51, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
Truly. If we could have a new admin a month and not lose any (to lack of participation), in 3 years we'd get 36 new admins. We've got this. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:53, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
Welcome on board! Though you've truly been on board for quite a while already. I'm glad you have more tools to help out now, and thanks for being willing to do this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:59, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
It's my pleasure. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 05:28, 18 February 2019 (UTC)


Thanks for updating the marker edit tool! Hopefully that will encourage editors to connect markers with Wikidata more. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:11, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Sure, glad to hear it worked. At some point, the same should be done for {{listing}}. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 19:30, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I think it's important that we use Wikidata as much as possible, because it enables us to get plenty of data with one short "link". --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:12, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
User:SelfieCity - The more we rely on Wikidata rather than local resources, the more control over our content we cede to an entirely different community who may be unaware of or indifferent to the goals of this site. I'm not anti-integration with Wikidata by any means, but it's important that we do so carefully and cautiously, and only to the minimal degree necessary to keep the site up to date. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:26, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
(ec) I'm very glad you agree! One of my goals here is to improve Wikidata integration, because I think it's the best way for other languages and sister projects to benefit from our work here, and vice versa. That's why I created the listing editor with bidirectional sync. One of my plans in the near future is to increase the number of fields auto-fetched in listings, especially some of the easier cases like Wikipedia links. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 22:27, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
Ha, two different perspectives spelled out here. Although I will say, I'm not anti-care and -caution by any means ;). ARR8 (talk | contribs) 22:28, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
Yes, when I first saw the two comments on top of each other, I thought, "This is interesting..." You're probably both right, or at least partially so. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:30, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Mcdowell County[edit]

Do you want to me delete that county article I made? You commented on my page that I shouldn't have made it... Pstar07 (talk) 00:35, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

@Pstar07: I admire your enthusiasm, but I'd hold off on creating new pages until you get a feel for what kind of pages we have; we're not Wikipedia.
Deletion is probably unnecessary. I would recommend merging it with New River and Greenbrier Valleys - you can put the See listings you wrote on the county article there, and then it can be made a redirect, so anyone searching for McDowell County will end up in the right place. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 00:39, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Okay, I'll do that. Let me know if you have any other useful advice. Where can I find more info on page format? Pstar07 (talk) 00:40, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

The "Help" and "Policies" sidebar links are good places to start. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 00:41, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
Also the WV:Article templates, which are split by type of article, and What is an article?; I still find myself referring to these after many years Wikivoyaging.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:57, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikivoyage:UX Expedition[edit]

You sent a ping to me and T100 for a discussion there. Sorry that I haven't been taking part, but when it comes to mobile there is not much I can say, because some time ago I decided not to use Wikivoyage on mobile to prevent making accidental rollbacks.

I wish the best to you and Traveler100 in your continued hard work to improve Wikivoyage user experience. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:14, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

@SelfieCity: Doesn't seem like that should be a factor. We have the gadget enabled now to ask for a confirmation, plus you'd only need to visit one page, not the recent changes. But you can of course choose not to help. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 04:02, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
Well, if that's the case, then Sandbox 2 seems fine, though I don't really notice any difference from the original. Still, on this screen, the banners don't completely cross the page, but I'm not exactly sure if that's what you are working on. I'll take a closer look at the commentary. Also, apologies, in the heading I had the wrong link. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 04:38, 21 February 2019 (UTC)


I just started using CropTool and it's very efficient! Thanks! --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:14, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

@SelfieCity: Glad to hear it! ARR8 (talk | contribs) 04:05, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Yes, much less downloading/uploading work to do, which also fills up memory space on whatever computer I use. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 04:13, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
@SelfieCity: Noticed the banners you've been adding. They're turning out quite well so far; don't forget, though, to add the banners to Wikidata while adding them here, so that other WVs can benefit from them, too. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 01:44, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Oh, I'm so sorry! I didn't know you had to do that. Thanks for letting me know. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 02:25, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Is this the correct way to do it? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 02:28, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Yep, thanks! ARR8 (talk | contribs) 02:31, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Unfortunately, though, [1] still is showing in the category page. It shouldn't take that long to update, should it? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 06:04, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Potentially months (see Disadvantage header). ARR8 (talk | contribs) 06:26, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
I see, it's one of those. Anyway, I'll get to work. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:27, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Although, thanks to somebody (I'm guessing, you) it's all fixed! Good news!

By the way, perhaps if you use visual editor to insert a pagebanner, a notice could be added saying that the change should also be made to Wikidata. Should the same be done if a pagebanner is replaced? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:28, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Not me, but the always-amazing User:Zcarstvnz.
That's a good idea, should be looked into. I don't know much about the visual editor, but I imagine the templatedata can do this. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 16:22, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
One other request that perhaps someone could work on: creating a bot that does the Wikidata for us. It's a big question, but if possible, would really help timewise. I guess you'd need to get the permission of other-language wikis, though. It would be another project of the user experience expedition. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:29, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
There already is one (ctrl+f wikivoyage). ARR8 (talk | contribs) 16:32, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
How does the bot get activated though? Does it have to be run? I was thinking more of a bot that runs automatically. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:59, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

@SelfieCity: Hi! After adding a pagebanner to a Wikivoyage article follow these steps below to get new banners into Wikidata. These instructions may look long or difficult, but after you've completed a few it becomes very quick and easy to do correctly.

Step 1a - In Wikidata, search for the location name or term you need to find. After opening up the Wikidata page, scroll almost all of the way to the bottom to find the Wikivoyage entry/section. If you are editing the English version of Wikivoyage, there should be an entry under Wikivoyage that starts with "en" for "English" and then the article name. If you see this, then proceed to Step 2 below.

Step 1b - For entries in the English language, if you don't see the "en" for "English" and then the article name, then you need to enter this data first. The article name must match only the Wikivoyage article name after the "/wiki/" portion of the URL. So for the Wikivoyage Ocean Island Beach article:

--- The URL for this article is:
--- In Wikidata you should see:  en    Ocean Isle Beach

Note that you must enter the two character language designation first (in this case "en" for "English" before you can enter the article name. Be sure to click on "Publish" after entering the data.

Step 1c - Sometimes other editors have added the Wikivoyage statement to the wrong article or perhaps you are adding the page banner to the wrong Wikidata article. So it is possible that you will get a warning message that the Wikivoyage article name is in use on another Wikidata entry. The nice part about this warning message is that you can click on the Wikidata article number in the warning message (its highlighted in blue for you) and open it up in a new tab to see which entry is correct. If you're adding the pagebanner to the wrong Wikidata article, simply click "cancel" on the wrong entry, and then add the pagebanner to the correct article. If the other article is incorrect, simply delete the Wikivoyage entry at the incorrect article, and then publish the entry on the correct article. I have yet to have anyone complain about making this type of change.

Step 2 - In Wikidata you must add the Statement called "page banner" along with the name of the page banner filename with the file suffix (e.g. Ocean Isle Beach banner.jpg).

Note that in Wikidata there are two types of entries: Statements and Identifiers. Be sure you adding the pagebanner in the "Statements" section which is above the "Identifiers" section. Some articles do not have any "Identifiers."

Step 3 - Add the reference statements. To be complete you should add two reference statements: p143 and p4656.

  • P143 captures the fact the banner is being used on Wikivoyage. For the English language version of Wikivoyage the statement for P143 is always "English Wikivoyage."
  • P4656 captures the URL/location the file is being used on in Wikivoyage. The statement P4656 changes with each banner you upload. For Ocean Island Beach, you would enter the URL shown above.
  • Note that Wikidata converts the p143 and p4656 codes to the correct names. I use the codes so that I don't have to type the long names.
  • Make sure you click on Publish after inputting the pagebanner data and the references. When complete, you should see a thumbnail photo of the banner, and it should show one reference.

Step 4 - The last step is to go back to the Wikivoyage article where you added the banner, click on edit, scroll to the bottom, DO NOT add a summary of changes, and then click on Publish changes to finish the edit. This step picks up the new data you entered in Wikidata and adds it to Wikivoyage. Now your new pagebanner should be completely published. Failure to complete this step will cause the article to still appear to not have its pagebanner data published in Wikidata.

And finally, there is no need to place a note on the Wikivoyage article that the banner needs to be added to Wikidata. This information shows up on the Maintenance panel under "Maintenance categories." It is the first category shown: "Banner to WD." If you are replacing a banner and you are a good editor, you should note that in the "Summary" of your changes before publishing a page change. That should be sufficient for other editors to track what took place regarding the replacement pagebanner.

If you need any additional info or have problems regarding this process, please let me know. Zcarstvnz (talk) 18:17, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

OK, I was only doing steps 1 and 2. I will do the others in future. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:44, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

I've copied the above content to User:SelfieCity/Banners to WD for reference. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:46, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
@Zcarstvnz: I think you made a small mistake in the above text. Where you wrote, "P4656 captures the URL/location the file is being used on in Wikivoyage. The statement P4656 changes with each banner you upload. For Ocean Island Beach, you would enter the URL shown above" it should be the pagename, not the URL, that you add as the reference. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:30, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Oh, and one other thing: per step 4, if I don't actually change anything, I can't publish my "changes". --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:31, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
No, the pagename isn't working either, since it's just linking back to WD. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:42, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
@SelfieCity: In regards to what you said about p4656, yes, there was a small error. This should have been, "P4656 captures the URL/location of the article where the pagebanner is located on Wikivoyage."
As for your other comment, even if you don't make any changes to a page you can still click on the "Publish changes" button at the bottom of the edit screen of an article. It works every time I have done this. When you do, nothing shows up in the View history portion of the article's history. It's like you didn't do anything, but it actually does update the article. As long as the "Publish changes" button is not grayed out, you can click on it.
Please take a look at the Ocean Isle Beach Wikidata entry. Hopefully that will help clarify the instructions. Thanks for catching the error above. Zcarstvnz (talk) 20:24, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
You mean source editor, I guess. I was referring to the visual editor. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:10, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

@SelfieCity: I have struck through the instructions above. I have updated large portions of these instructions and they are at the following page: Category:Banner missing from Wikidata. It would be too hard to maintain multiple pages for this topic, so that seems like the best place to make updates. Further discussion of this topic would best be held at the article Discussion page. Please be sure to "ping" me if you open a discussion there. Thanks! Zcarstvnz (talk) 22:41, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Text in Presidents of the United States[edit]

This text, "During his time in office, Mexican revolutionary Pancho Villa led an invasion of the US mainland to date, to which Wilson responded by sending a punitive expedition led by John Pershing which accomplished nothing" is true. The problem (and this is the only thing I edited) was that the text last invasion was incorrect; otherwise the section is true. The "accomplished nothing" could be removed, however. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:25, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

It is too negative relative to how notable the event was, in my opinion, especially the last part. It could be read as biased or opinionated. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 00:31, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Name one stated goal that the Pershing expedition accomplished. And if it was not the last land invasion of the lower 48, what was a later land invasion of the lower 48? Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:33, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Re the first part: it doesn't matter what it accomplished. We're not here to pass judgment on history. Frankly, we're not here to report it either, and I don't get the purpose of that page at all. Regardless, if it's here, it must be fair. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 00:37, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
I think "The Pershing Expedition into Mexico achieved none of its stated goals" is a fair summation of what it did. What would not be fair would be to call it a blatant act of Yankee imperialism that drenched the innocent soil of Mexico with the blood of her best sons. It would also not be fair to call it a smashing success in avenging a heinous crime committed on unsuspecting US citizens by murderous bandits. Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:40, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Putting the phrase "accomplished nothing" at the end of the summary of a presidency, even if it is actually describing some minor event, sets the tone of the whole thing. Even a careful reader may read that as an opinion on the president. I don't see why the expedition needs to be judged at all, or included. If you really think it's absolutely essential to include, keeping in mind these are short summaries and Wilson is much more well-known for other things, I don't think anything should be said beyond the fact that it happened. None of the other presidential blurbs have opinions, only events. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 00:47, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── frankly the world would be a better place if Woodrow Wilson had accomplished nothing. Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:18, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Phrasebook edit[edit]

Deletion of Stanzer Valley[edit]

Hi ARR8, just wondering why you deleted Stanzer Valley a few days ago. I can't find any discussion and I don't see anything obviously wrong with the article. —Granger (talk · contribs) 04:16, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Well, apparently, the IP user 178 who created that article and many others of interest around Austria was blocked - again by ARR8 - on the grounds that they were an attempt at block evasion by ArticCynda. ARR8, can you please point out where it was discovered that ArticCynda and 178 were the same person? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:28, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
@Mx. Granger, ThunderingTyphoons!: special:diff/3730141 among others; see edits where the IP user upgraded the article status.
I figured the other articles were sufficiently developed enough to require a deletion discussion but I could nip this one in the bud. If you disagree, restore it. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 10:56, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for your answer, and for the actions you took. It seems that months of quiet and productive contributions weren't enough for the user in question, and the needs of ego betrayed him. I had suspected for a long time that this IP user was either a 'named' Wikivoyager incognito or a previously banned user, but the edits were good and there was no evidence linking them to anyone else.
However, I don't think we are applying WV:Deny recognition to ArticCynda's edits, so am not too sure about deleting any of these pages. Feel free to propose it, but in doing so be aware that you may drag up old unpleasantness that the community would rather not revisit. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:40, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
@ThunderingTyphoons!: Yeah, I'm disappointed, too. What's worse, I think some of us (I was, at least) were hesitating from correcting this "new user" on their mistakes, such as adding regions without discussion, because of the quality of their contributions. Re: the deletion, I did it not based on Deny but on our longstanding practice of reverting contributions by banned users; if you look at previous AC sockpuppet incidents, similar measures were taken. As I said, I thought the rest of the edits were too substantial to delete outright. Let me know if what I did was in error. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 11:48, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
I may be mistaken and/or a hypocrite, depending on what is in my edit history (!), but I believe that longstanding practice you refer to was more in the case of cut-and-dried vandalism or disruptive behaviour. For instance, I removed a comment by AC to an adminnom which was little more than a character assassination of one of our most-trusted editors, however previous comments of his IP socks (see the Star nominations page) are still in situ. I definitely think your removal of his 'docent' template was the correct thing to do, and I wouldn't worry too much if Stanzer Valley remained deleted, but would ask that, in future, you consider how disruptive edits are before you delete them.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:11, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Will do. But, I have definitely seen even constructive mainspace edits reverted before on grounds of block evasion - for one example, the series of edits around this one. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 12:27, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Without commenting on the grounds for this particular deletion, I do want to suggest that you make sure to include an explanation in the "reason" box when deleting an article, so that it's easy for people poking around later to figure out what was going on. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:52, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Agreed.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:21, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Got it. I normally do, but wanted to avoid calling attention to the vandal, which I gather he wanted. I can see how that could be concerning/confusing, though. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 16:05, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Replacing PNG maps with SVG[edit]

Hi there, I saw you've replaced a number of PNG region maps with SVG (like Mozambique). Part of the reason we use PNGs for region maps instead of the SVG is because the SVG version often holds languages other than English. Each language version is then exported out as PNG to suit the WV language version. Otherwise, whoever edits the SVG last usually leaves it in the language he/she was using... so an English SVG map today could become Russian or French (or another language) tomorrow. Cheers -Shaundd (talk) 17:52, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

@Shaundd: Hi Shaundd, I'm aware of this. I only replace the PNG if this is not a factor. For example, the Mozambique file is only in English. For the rest, I've been converting some of them to truly multilingual files, where they contain all the languages by design and you can specify which to use, and edit the layers separately. See commons:File:Map_of_China.svg for an example; note the drop-down language select menu. I don't replace the PNG without either verifying it is monolingual or doing the conversion. Thanks for the map updates and for taking an interest. -ARR8 (talk | contribs) 20:48, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
OK, sounds good. Thanks for the explanation. -Shaundd (talk) 05:39, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
Something's wrong with the new map in China. The letters aren't aligned correctly, giving some of the province names a weird wobbly look. For instance, the "G" in "ZHEJIANG" is slightly lower than the rest of the word, and the first "G" in "GUANGDONG" is slightly higher than the rest of the word. This wasn't a problem in the previous PNG map. —Granger (talk · contribs) 05:49, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
Also, Tianjin is misspelled. It looks like that was a problem in the PNG map too, I just never noticed. —Granger (talk · contribs) 05:51, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
@Mx. Granger: All of these were problems with the old map, too, if you zoom in. It may be more visible now, though. I'll take a look when I get a chance. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 16:29, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
I don't know how it works on the back-end, but the previous map looked good while the current one unfortunately looks a little sloppy. I preferred the PNG Europe map too—the country names are a little harder to read on the current one. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:20, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Currency templates[edit]

ARR8, I'm wondering what the purpose is of the currency templates that you added to Haarlem. As far as I can, the only difference between €100 and €100 is that the latter is underlined. Can you enlighten me? Thanks. Ground Zero (talk) 22:02, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

@Ground Zero: Sure. The intent is that hovering over the text shows you a popup with the equivalent value in several other major currencies. This works on my browser, and, on PC, there's a hint towards this in that mousing over it changes your cursor to a "help" icon. Does this work on your end?
Even if it doesn't, the other advantage of the template is that it standardizes the format. Haarlem, before I converted them all, had currency in multiple formats, i.e. €100, € 100, €100.00, €100,00, etc. So now they're all unified, and what's nice is that if the community decides tomorrow that we'd prefer euros to be in the 100€ format rather than €100, we can change the template and switch all uses of it to the new format without any difficulty.
Similar templates exist for many other currencies; see {{Exchangerate/list}}. Looking at the revision history, seems User:Traveler100 started this, so maybe he has some more info on it. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 22:29, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for explanation. The hovering does not work on my Android phone. Ground Zero (talk) 22:35, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
That's a problem, of course. Seems that's something the WMF skin developers should take care of, as <abbr> tags are used sometimes. Maybe, though, that's up to mobile browser developers.
Traveler100: Maybe we can do something about it. I whipped up a quick stylesheet to show the conversion popup on tap for mobile. Since the exchangerate template doesn't add a class, I've written it to apply to all abbr tags. I'm thinking this might be better suited for skin styles, and not for responsive media queries. It's pretty basic and can be improved. Maybe the WMF web design people will have something to say about the general issue of abbr tags on mobile. (User:Jdlrobson?) Regardless, here it is:
@media screen and (max-width: 768px) {
  abbr[title]:hover:after {
    content: " "attr(title);
    color: black;
    position: absolute;
    background: beige;
    margin-top: -1.4em;
  abbr[title]:hover {
    color: gray;
Let me know if you/anyone reading would like me to put this in a sandbox. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 23:11, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Good idea! Can confirm it works on desktop Chrome, Windows 10.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 01:12, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes I think it would be good to get this function working on mobile too. Also some people have commented that they do not like the underline, maybe we should explore options on either no marking or a different one, or a different font or color. --Traveler100 (talk) 02:23, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
To be honest, I am not entirely sure what's being asked for here. Relying on :hover for anything UI related on mobile is not very discoverable and problematic and I don't advise doing it (this is one of the reason the page previews feature is disabled on mobile). An abbr tag can use a title attribute to show the non-abbreviated text on hover. abbr tags should style with a dotted underline on phones but obviously there is no way to hover over them on touch devices which do not have a mouse cursor. The tag seems to be used for a wide variety of things across Wikimedia projects, so I encourage you to experiment with styles and make a proposal on Phabricator for anything that you think would be useful for all those abbr tags. Jdlrobson (talk) 20:53, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
@Jdlrobson: Thanks, that answers my question. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 21:24, 23 March 2019 (UTC)