Talk:Kosovo

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Comments on and improvements to the article are appreciated. Just started it this afternoon on a whim and it is still very much a work in progress... Once finished I'll be moving on to do a detailed Montenegro, which will be a huge amount of work as well as more detailed info on Bosnia. (WT-en) Aburda 09:09, 4 Jul 2005 (EDT)

parts when talking about "Stay safe", where it calls Albanians as Xenophobic, are not appropriate. Thus, I will remove it. Keep this article apolotical, please! (WT-en) Ilirpz 19:21, 26 March 2006 (EST)


You seem to know quite a bit about the region, so I'd encourage you to re-write some of it with the mindset of a neutral party! Write with these guidelines in mind: No direct references to the reader ("you"), no narration ("Well, actually its not that hard" and in particular the "Ahh" preceding the main section), and a focus on facts rather than viewpoints ("Many in Kosovo have said" versus "People from Kosovo are"). Good luck, I know I'm curious about the Kosovo region myself! (WT-en) Experia 02:52, 10 January 2007 (EST)

Independence[edit]

So, I'm not set to believe Kosovo is an independent country. Russia, Greece, Spain, and Serbia are not going to recognize this declaration of independence as legit. Therefore, I suggest that we do not declare Kosovo as an independent country or a "former" province of Serbia. Kosovo needs legitimize its declaration before we make such declarations - that's what we did with Montenegro. -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 13:07, 17 February 2008 (EST)

The traveller comes first, so once Kosovo starts acting like an independent country (eg. requiring Kosovan visas instead of Serbian ones), it's an independent country in my book. Cf. eg. Northern Cyprus or Palestine, which aren't independent by most measures, but are treated more or less as countries anyway. (WT-en) Jpatokal 01:07, 18 February 2008 (EST)
I agree -- the traveller comes first. -- (WT-en) Colin 18:23, 18 February 2008 (EST)
Agreed. The US is already talking about setting up a mission there ([1]) and it would seem that, for all practical purposes, it is an independent country. While that's not the issue, I don't see how this can be reversed anyway (short of an all out war).--(WT-en) Wandering 16:19, 18 February 2008 (EST)
Well, I wouldn't rule out forcible retaliation against Kosovo's government by the federal government despite the Serbian President's assurances. The leader of the Kosovar branch of the Serb Orthodox Church has encouraged the army to intervene and to purchase weapons from Russia and ethnic Serbs are very angry about the declaration. I'd propose dealing with this like the Palestinian Territories by saying the government is "Palestinian Authority and Israel" (Gaza Strip guide). That way we're fair to all sides and travelers. There are ways for Serbia to subvert the traveler and Kosovo's claim that it's declaration of independence is legitimate. Plus, Kosovars are waving Albanian flags around, so who knows if it will possibly end up to be absorbed by Albania. -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 18:06, 18 February 2008 (EST)
Aside from adding a quickbar, what would change if we call it a country? I see no reason to get overly involved in cataloging the politics—we don't need to declare anything. All that's important IMHO is who you need to go to to get your visa, and whose laws you must obey while traveling there. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 22:25, 18 February 2008 (EST)
My crystal ball foresees lots of stupid edit wars over the isIn|Serbia-vs-Mediterranean Europe bit... but I've now added the quickbar, changed the intro and moved Kosovo into Med Europe. (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:19, 18 February 2008 (EST)

Insurance payment[edit]

Hi! I've been to Kosovo late last year (entered December 30, left December 31, 2008). At the entry point, there was no need for an insurance to be bought. Our (German) insurance had told us prior to the journey that Kosovo was dealt with like Albania (!). While I assume the situation is still in flux in some way it might be sensitive to have the "Get in by car" section re-worded a bit to make it sound less rock-solid. Thanks. --141.35.15.102 12:16, 28 January 2009 (EST)

Regions[edit]

What about the regions of Kosovo? Personally I don't think it needs any regions. IF (only if), we have to do something, we could use the UNMIK subdivisions [2], but I think we could do with just listing these cities in the city list. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 08:24, 11 January 2010 (EST)

If we some day have an awesome guide to Kosovo with tons of content, then it would make sense to add regions. But for now it's probably best to leave it as our standard light grey, a la Andorra. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 13:50, 11 January 2010 (EST)
No regions makes sense to me. I can easily create this map from my Serbia map. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 02:21, 21 April 2010 (EDT)

Fixing the map[edit]

The map of Kosovo is not separated Central, Western, Southern, Northern and South-eastern Kosovo although the regions are color coded.

Also the region's map is always on the top of the "Central Kosovo" descripitions for some reason and I can't fix.

"The country"[edit]

In my opinion, the anonymous edit which removed every single instance of Kosovo being described as a country, and added the caveat of "administrative" to the description of the border with Serbia, is not "tidy[ing] up...neutrality issues" as was claimed in the edit summary, but is actually taking a Serbian nationalist perspective, rather than that of travellers. So I am taking up the IP user on his or her kind offer to talk things over here and invite other users to join in too. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:34, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Right you've made a number of glaring errors. The Serbian "nationalist" perspective is that Montenegro, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Krajina, Macedonia and Kosovo all belong to Serbia. The Serbian "government" position is different, and that is that Kosovo is an autonomous province of Serbia. Stating it is a de facto country is still heavily weighted towards the Kosovo/western position. So by saying "administrative border", it respects neutrality and removes the need for bigger circumventing (the territories that Belgrade and Pristina control are known). --Juicy Oranges (talk) 16:09, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
See this edit, too. A country recognized by half the world is not merely a "de facto country". Can we please stop with these political edits? This is not a debating society on Balkan issues; it is a travel guide. I don't think we should be in the business of characterizing countries as "de facto" and "de jure" on this site, anyway, as the only point on a travel guide is what authority the traveler needs to approach for permission to enter and travel within an area of land (sea, etc.). Any problems a traveler might encounter from the governments of other places that don't recognize the independence or legitimacy of another country or are enforcing sanctions against it are also obviously relevant, but can we please stop setting ourselves up as legal authorities here? Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:48, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
It has nothing to do with number of recognitions. "De facto" means this is the way it operates. More than de facto is "de jure" and no convention exists to determine this factor. As for more than half the world, Kosovo pales in comparison to State of Palestine by about 20 countries, but click that article and see the biased pro-western narrative of the article. So if Transnistria is de facto, no reason for Kosovo to be different. --Juicy Oranges (talk) 16:08, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
The original edit seemed more-or-less unobjectionable to me, but the user seems dead-set on preventing the word country from appearing anywhere in the page, even if it refers to the countryside of Kosovo or to Russia. I am leaning towards reverting the changes to the use of "country" wholly, if that is an option being considered. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 16:14, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
As an act of good faith, I am happy to review it. I only meant to modify references to the political unit and I assure you I never intended to project some form of Serbian bias. I can see one instance definitely where I went overboard and I will fx that one as soon as this is posted. --Juicy Oranges (talk) 16:18, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Asides that, I'll happily pore over all other instances one by one to see where there is agreement and where there isn't. Where we have no agreement, we can explore "what else can we try" rather than pushing harder for the point that was rejected. --Juicy Oranges (talk) 16:23, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

For travelers, de facto control of access and travel within a zone are the only issues, other than potential visa problems in entering other countries that don't recognize each other. So the issue with Palestine is precisely that they don't exercise much de facto control over access to their own country. I do agree that we should treat Transnistria - and indeed every place with stable control over access and travel within an area - the same way as Kosovo, except inasmuch as we mention something about how many countries recognize its independence in the "Understand" section. I have no interest in either "western" or "eastern" points of view on whether a place is a country or not, and at my earliest opportunity, I will propose doing away with all references to countries being "de facto", as not within the purview of a travel guide. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:33, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
I am slowly coming around but let's try at least to get some consensus. I have these past minutes looked at other examples and in truth, there is clearly no one-size-fits-all policy on Wikivoyage. So how would you feel about an intro similar to Crimea? Get it out the way early on that dispute exists but due - not so much to number of recognitions but to facts on the ground - we will treat Kosovo like a sovereign state because that is precisely what matters to a visitor. Then we can forget de facto and even "administrative" as a qualifier before "border". --Juicy Oranges (talk) 16:46, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
It may be time to revisit some of the contents of the disclaimer in the Crimea guide, as for example, war there seems quite unlikely for the foreseeable future. My feeling is, go ahead and write your proposed disclaimer text for discussion here. But I do think that the larger issue is really that deviation from a strict policy of recognizing all stable de facto conditions ill serves the site, and any hint of bias in any direction in regard to borders and declarations of independence should be removed, in keeping with Wikivoyage:Be fair. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:19, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Thanks but I never meant anything as drastic or complicated as that. I mean (roughly, not verbatim), "despite being unrecognised by Serbia from whom it declared independence, we treat Kosovo as an independent state because this reflects the facts on the ground". Hereinafter, we can go back to the original references. I'll have to check again what they are because a blanket revert would remove my additional material... --Juicy Oranges (talk) 17:27, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

If anyone now wants to tweak or adjust my edit then that will be fine. I'll return tomorrow to check as I'm out the rest of the evening and I only use PC and never phone. Cheers to all and thanks once again to each person for discussing. --Juicy Oranges (talk) 17:37, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

As IK said, "write your proposal for discussion here" and wait for consensus to be achieved BEFORE changing the page. Until so, it will be reverted every time. Ibaman (talk)

I think we should perhaps have a page (in "Wikivoyage" space) that clearly explains our stance on these political issues. This problem has come up before. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:41, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Wikivoyage:Be_fair#Political_disputes -- ϒψιλον (talk) 20:46, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Sure, but I mean a separate page just about political issues like this. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:48, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
I'd suggest we'd expand that section and if it looks like there will be a lot to say about how we handle places like Kosovo or Taiwan, then it can be split into a separate policy page. Though there isn't much to say; if someone going to the country X that is regarded as part of country Y by some but has its own immigration rules, borders, visa, currency etc. and the visitor will experience it as a different country, then we handle country X as a different country. ϒψιλον (talk) 21:09, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
I can do a userspace draft like we did with WV:Deny recognition, but I don't have the time to do it at the moment — maybe I could start later today. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:41, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

I am happy with the compromising tone struck by User:Juicy Oranges above, but would like a bit more detail on what (s)he is proposing in order to fully understand it.

I am of the same opinion as Ypsi that a whole new policy page - even as a draft - probably isn't needed at this stage. Expand Wikivoyage:Be_fair#Political_disputes.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:09, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

We just need to follow the be fair policy more closely, as I outline in Travellers' pub#"De facto countries". Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:02, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
@ThunderingTyphoons! In my case it's he but thanks for pointing out the ambiguity. Basically after making an amassment of changes that were neither intended to present Kosovo as a sovereign state (pro-independence viewpoint) nor as a Serbian province (anti-independence viewpoint), I came to realise that the wider Wikivoyage projects observe facts on the ground more than de jure status or controversy. On this note I began to dismantle my earlier changes but felt that the page would best be served by an initial note explaining that despite robustly divergent standpoints dividing the world in almost two equal halves, that as a project WV editors do not mean to flagrantly disregard this crisis but as an online travel guide merely seek to explain things to visitors in such a way that is relevant to them. I mean if most are not happy then we can go back to a "neither fish not fowl" arrangement but my hunches for improvement lie with the first option. --Juicy Oranges (talk) 13:27, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Any more thoughts here? --Juicy Oranges (talk) 12:14, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm happy with the changes made by User:ARR8 which follow our policies at Be fair, and think we adequately explain the situation to travellers in the lede and Understand section. Time to move on to different things, I'd say.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:08, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Page protection[edit]

I have protected Kosovo so it can only be edited by administrators, until February 1, 2019. This should prevent any more edit warring until then. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:55, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

For the record, I believe this is an overreaction, and is more likely to discourage the new contributor than welcome them. The user has shown every sign of good faith and a willingness to discuss and compromise, so recommend you rethink.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:01, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Agree with this (and that). The rules have been explained since the accusations of edit warring; we should demonstrate we trust the user to follow them. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 23:47, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Protection changes to autoconfirmed users accordingly, and maybe even that is overprotection. I don't think this reversion generally improved things, either, though I haven't touched it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:48, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Sure, but may I please explain something in the privacy of an abuse filter? It's relevant. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:31, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
OK, sorry if I created a problem. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:36, 27 January 2019 (UTC)