Talk:Sweden/Archive 2005-2014

Religion

As usual, the amount of christians in Sweden is extremely exaggerated, due to the extremely high amount of church membership (since everyone born before 1996 automatically became a member, and few care to end their membership). 23 percent atheist is, as anyone knows, not true. 76% would be more like it. Can someone find some good sources, preferably quick, to replace these lies? It's not like there is any controversy surrounding this issue. One recommendation would be to check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Sweden Actually, one of the sources of polls shown there shows 76% not being theist (http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_225_report_en.pdf page 9), thus definitely not 76% luthereans. 81.226.215.80 16:41, 2 May 2009 (EDT)

I agree 76% lutherans is an exaggerated figure. According to the Eurobarometer poll you linked to, however, 23% is an accurate figure for atheists. The problem is the 53% who answered "I believe there is some sort of spirit or life force". Strictly speaking, this view does fall under the term atheism in it's broadest sense, the absence of belief in gods. It is not, however, an outright rejection of theism and I don't think many among those 53% would accept the label "atheist" (a frustrating number of people present agnosticism as their religious views when in fact it's a purely philosophical one).

I suggest the following text instead of the one now present:

23% theist (mainly Lutheran with muslim and catholic minorities), 76% nontheist (including 23% atheist)

opinions? (WT-en) Stfn 14:17, 16 October 2009 (EDT)

Agree with User:Stfn. Pretty few are atheists, pretty few are denominational, most are eclectic "believers" in this-or-that spiritual. User:Rursus on Wikipedia 03:20, 16 December 2011 (EST)

Time zone

UTC does not change when summer time comes along. Swedens time zone is CET in wintertime and CEST in summertime. Or am I reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC incorrectly? Also, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GMT which has a nice map showing this.

Finally, see the time zone entry on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden

I didn't change anything since it's probably following the same pattern for all countries. With fact errors like this, I beginning to doubt that wikivoyage is even serious.

Population

Moved from main article...

For a little time ago it was 9 million. But according to this population clock: http://www.scb.se/templates/befolkningsklocka/befklocka_mall____75500.asp it is not it any more. It says around 8 980 000.

But it is from the Statistiska Centralbyrån, and they know that.

As of 19 Nov 2004, this link says 9,010,000 people... so let's just say about 9 million for now. -(WT-en) Nick 18:14, 19 Nov 2004 (EST)

Hierarchy

The 3 lands that were listed before make an excellent short introduction. The provinces are listed in each land. Is there a strong reason to change this? I think not. --(WT-en) Evan 10:39, 15 Dec 2005 (EST)

I've rolled it back; please see Project:geographical hierarchy for details as to why. --(WT-en) Evan 10:41, 15 Dec 2005 (EST)

Road pirates

Road-pirates! what!? Urbanlegend based on a few isolated road-muggings..

Yeah, I'm not sure I even understand the description. They fill up your tank while you're sleeping? Huh? Is the car moving during this procedure? --(WT-en) Evan 20:34, 16 Jan 2006 (EST)

Hum, I'll make it shorter or remove it untill someone manages to give a proper description in English. /(WT-en) Adestro 18:25, 18 Jan 2006 (EST)

Road pirates are people that come into your, say, caravan at night while you are asleep on the side of the road and steal stuff. Very, or even extremely uncommon, see no reason for it to be in here. /Joel

I wouldn't say "very, or even extremely uncommon" and absolutely not "[u]rbanlegend based on a few isolated ...". Sure, the problem has declined during 2006, but the last few years before that were pretty bad and the police have been running several campaigns warning people not to sleep in their vans alongside certain roads. 83.233.155.80 14:03, 11 December 2006 (EST)

Being serious when it was written, the warning seems obsolete by now. The last report was years ago. /(WT-en) Blist 11:29, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

City listings

According to the Wikivoyage guidelines, lists of cities, regions etc should not exceed 9. The list for Sweden is well over this number. If someone has sufficient knowledge of ther country, could they prune the list. Thanks. (WT-en) WindHorse 14 Feb 06

Done! /81.235.1.154 10:28, 23 February 2006 (EST)

Thanks for picking out the right cities. I restored four of the deleted cities because no region article currently links to them, and we prefer not to orphan them. They're clearly marked so that we know they ought to be deleted once the region article exists. -- (WT-en) Colin 14:34, 23 February 2006 (EST)

I don't really think Kiruna could be called a major city, could it? Luleå is a slightly dubious candidate as well, but at least it is the major city of northern Norrland.

-(WT-en) Stfn 14:21, 16 October 2009 (EDT)

Racist?

From article: It is not likely, but it might happen that a group of foreign looking (non-Swedish) young men approaches you and ask for cigarettes. When (if) you choose to not give them any (or that you simply don't smoke) they might rob you and beat you up!

What makes it more likely that non-Swedish looking people would rob you? Sounds a little bit racist to me --217.211.68.33 08:14, 12 October 2006 (EDT)

Come on! The risk of getting robbed is almost zero.

WTF?? Foreign-looking young men asking for cigarettes and then robbing you? that is just racist and plainly stupid. I'm erasing it.

It's true though. A few friends of mine who have been robbed in that manner, all robbers were non-swedish

the truth about racism in sweden isnt accepted on this site, for information youll have to look for other sources!

What could be added is the fact that it is quite uncommon for people to come up to you and ask for ciggaretts (except from bars). People comming up to you MIGHT have another purpose.

To paraphrase Colberg, "reality has a well-known racial bias".

I've always wanted to go to Sweden, but I just read that in Sweden there is discrimination even based on hair colour! - Cannot believe it! Is this true?

"I've always wanted to go to Sweden, but I just read that in Sweden there is discrimination even based on hair colour! - Cannot believe it! Is this true?"

Yes, just like in any other country in the world there is discrimination based on hair color. The truth is Sweden is a modern nation with many immigrants. Thus it naturally has some difficulties assimilating and accomodating them - also like any other modernized country. The situation is quite complicated however, so don't get caught up on the hair color aspect, as if that was the defining issue. About 1/5 of the Swedish population is now composed of immigrants and their children. So, don't worry if you have dark hair or skin and are going on vacation here, people won't give you any notice on the streets (I met a guy from black guy from Texas here that said he loved it because people didn't stare at him when he was in public places). Besides, Swedes are in my experience less racist than Germans, Franchmen, Spaniards, Italians, Americans and Australians. The problem with racism here is to a large extent "structural racism", that people of e.g. Middle-Eastern descent have a harder time getting employment. ((WT-en) Vidyadhara 12:03, 16 July 2008 (UT))

Sweden is the country of double standards, Saying one thing, doing another thing. Besides, as Swedes Them Selves say "Sweden is boring, cold and dark," That Is Why They drink so much and Behav like pigs. A very very depressing place.

Ironically how you yourself seems to be a racist and generalize how you think all Swedish persons behave.

I minor objection about the handling of fresh fruits

Quote: "When shopping for groceries, it is customary to buy fruit and vegetables that you touch."

I have never heard anyone complaining about people touching fruits or vegetables and then not buying them. I think this is an expression of the germ fear of the author. Instead I would say that it is quite ok. to feel if fruits etc. are ripe.

if you live there and have first hand knowledge of it then why not just go in and change it to a more suitable description - or erase it altogether, if it isn't really an issue - no need to talk about feeling fruit for ripeness unless there's something uniquely Swedish about it...  :) (WT-en) Cacahuate 05:08, 27 November 2006 (EST)

Agree with Cacahuate. Go ahead and remove it. /Jake73

Removing it NOW since I live here. /Mattias

I do to, and, while I don't think about whether others might have touched the fruits I buy, I always feel a bit guilty when touching fruits I don't buy. Maybe just me. :-) —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 83.253.224.93 (talk • contribs) 9 May 2007

Swedes are not THAT sensitive, or are they?

Quote: "Keep hand gestures to a minimum. The Swedes use few gestures when speaking and are not comfortable with a lot of bodily contact, so maintain an arm's length of personal space and avoid backslapping and other overt physical expressions. Speak in a calm and composed manner at all times. You rarely hear people raising their voices in Sweden."

While the above may be a good description of how the average Swedish person talks and acts, I definitely think that it's over the top to tell tourists that it's how they should act. It's not like the Swedes have a problem with hand gestures and back slapping. Most of them have even seen a foreigner before! :) If nobody objects I'll erase or at least modify it. /Jake73

No objection here! better that you just make it sound better and then if anyone objects they can further alter it... plunge forward! (WT-en) Cacahuate 06:42, 28 November 2006 (EST)

Well acctually, it's a very good descriptopn of swedes. Speaking as a swede, I personally hate it when foreigners do this (mostly swedes of middle-easterns ethnicity), and I find it quite disturbing. So, I guess, using excessive body language with intrusion to the personal space, and raising your voice, would be recommended against. /PutBoy

I dont think there's anything wrong with telling visitors what would be polite or warn them that Swedes may have different ideas about personal space. It's up to people to decide if they care or not, but it's nice to mention it. Maybe the wording could be changed to more descriptive and less prescriptive? It seems like useful cultural information to me. (WT-en) Maj 17:18, 11 December 2006 (EST)

Prostitution and cannabis

I noticed that two bits of information had been removed and I restored them. The bits are that buying sex is "considered extremely shameful by most people in Sweden" and "Do not expect Swedes, including young people, to be liberal when it comes to cannabis and other soft drugs". I strongly want to defend those paragraphs since they concern two areas where a visitor to Sweden may turn himself into instant pariah by saying the wrong thing. Swedes in general are, without a doubt, much more negative to prostitution and cannabis than citizens of most other Western countries. (WT-en) Jake73 19:01, 20 December 2006 (EST)

Planning a trip in Sweden

I plan a trip in Sweden, and i have two weeks time (from 4th May to 18th May). Which places do you suggest me to visit?

Regions

I am busy creating a new map for Sweden (a combination of the Region map and CIA map). Can anyone tell me if that open gap between Svealand and Götaland on the current region map is intentional or is there a province that should slot in there. --(WT-en) NJR_ZA 13:40, 15 October 2007 (EDT)

That's a lake :-) --85.227.189.54 14:51, 1 April 2008 (EDT)

hitchhicking ??

" Ordinary people are often afraid to pick up strangers, unless they're women with babies in desperate conditions, after dark maybe (when it's probable that leaving them there means killing them by hypothermia "

What kind of sentence is that....

Hej, I've never edited anything on wikipedia before and it seems a bit strange to just do it without consulting anyone. Of course this is very much based on your experience but I have had no problems hitching in Sweden and nor has anyone else I know, I would definitely rate it as easy as anywhere else in Northern Europe to get a lift, so I'm gonna edit it in a few days to be a bit more positive unless anyone has any objections.

DRUGS

"Though narcotics are not unheard of, most Swedes, old as young, are strongly opposed to them, and the criminal penalties are hard by Swedish standards. This also applies to cannabis and other "soft drugs"

This is complete rubbish. I live in Sweden, and drugs; mostly cocaine, are COMMONLY used at clubs and by ordinary Swedes. Whoever wrote this is a complete moron. ((WT-en) SebastianGS 12:06, 27 June 2008 (EDT))

Take it easy there. You're just thinking wishfully because you hang out in certain, limited groups who use stimulants, probably get away with it, and probably continue relatively successful lives. Remember now that Swedes in general are intolerant of narcotics (compare with Americans; despite their official "War on Drugs" Americas use drugs much more often, which I can say from reading research and having lived in both countries and partaken in the night life). Importantly, this article is written to help tourists. Additionally, the statement you quote is corrent. Most Swedes are strongly opposed to narcotics. Criminal penalties are hard compared to other crimes, and the penalties are also among the hardest in Europe. Moreover, the concept of "recreational drugs" does not exist in Sweden. Yes, as you say you can go to some clubs in the largest cities and find amphetamines and cocaine, and if you know have connections you can aquire drugs in all shapes and sizes, as in any country with urban centers. But, as I said, this article is written to make help tourists with the majority culture. Finally, Sweden isn't known for its wonderful drug culture anyhow. So even if narcotics were legal, common and accepted here, it would be misleading to recommend using drugs in Sweden, because they are uncommon. (In that case one goes to America, Great Britain, Germany, etc.) ((WT-en) Vidyadhara 11:48, 16 July 2008 (EDT))

During my years at a Swedish university, I have only seen one student using drugs on the campus. It was an American exchange student. Otherwise, I agree with Vidyadhara. If you think drugs are accepted at Swedish clubs, go ask an unfamiliar ordningsvakt on duty where to buy some. I don't guess he will be that helpful. /(WT-en) Blist 17:04, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

Hard drugs exist everywhere, and if you frequent the "right" circles they would seem common even in Tehran and Riyadh. But they are indeed mostly frowned upon in Sweden, and legal punishments are quite severe compared to what they hand out for other misdemeanour's. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 17:10, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

New paragraph

Hi there. I have inserted a paragraph that I consider important to all Sweden tourists but wasn't sure where exactly to put it. Please move to a better place if there is one. Cheers, 90.233.184.6 06:38, 8 February 2010 (EST)

crime section

Is the text here really representative for Sweden? I think it needs to be re-written.

The crime section is exaggerated - lets face it, you can't have the risk of crime as "moderate" in a country such as Sweden where the crime statistics and rate of reporting are inflated due to the active participation of the population. Crimes committed against Swedes abroad or by Swedes abroad are also collected as part of the national crime statistics and suicide is included in the murder rate (so is attempted murder). When analysing things on a comparative level it has been shown that Sweden has one of the lowest violent crime rates in the world and thus I have ammended the "Stay Safe" section to reflect this.

Not in great shape

This article that is. A tiny understand section with no History or Climate sub-sections. And only two valid Other destinations listed. Someone who knows Sweden well please have a go at improving this.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:42, 4 March 2010 (EST)

Get In

Please clarify discussion of "...counter begins..." in fourth para. Probably refers to number of days any traveler may stay in country or (Schengen) countries without a visa, but doesn't refer to any discussion of the "counter" or number of days, on this page or elsewhere. Same text occurs for Denmark & Copenhagen, possibly others. Regards, hennejj@aol.com.

ATM section is very confusing

The sentences "For withdrawals with debit cards accounted for the last five transactions on the memory patch. A medkontohavare can make withdrawals from the account with their own cards. Do you have withdrawal rights, you own card with them aside from others' accounts" is particularly confusing; I cannot make out what the original writer is trying to convey, even after reading it multiple times. Could someone with knowledge of the banking system in Sweden please rewrite this section? (WT-en) midnightreport 19:12, 8 August 2010 (EDT)

I've deleted it, as it's hardly relevant for travelers, and those few it would be relevant to, will have this thoroughly explained by their Swedish bank.--(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 19:45, 8 August 2010 (EDT)

Hamburger chain max

The bit about hamburger restaurant Max seems a bit exaggerated.. "for tasteful Scandinavian furnishing, clean restrooms, no trans fats and free coffee with meals". The second and third statements are uncertain and subjective. Forth statement is pure advertisement, not relevant for an article about sweden. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 80.216.227.32 (talk • contribs) 17:29, 16 August 2010

Shoes?

I as a Swede do no tknow anyone that would like to have anyone to walk around in their appartment with their shoes on. In very rare ocasions are shoes allowed indoors.

Shoes?

I as a Swede do no tknow anyone that would like to have anyone to walk around in their appartment with their shoes on. In very rare ocasions are shoes allowed indoors.

Get in entry requirements

In case anyone wants to know the source of my edits to include information about the visa exemption for 'Annex II' nationals to work during their 90 day visa-free entry, see this European Union document - . (WT-en) Yeahtravel 17:33, 31 May 2011 (EDT)

VAT/other taxes

Suggest someone who knows the facts make a few remarks on this topic that would be useful to visitors. At the risk of redundancy, the same remarks might also be made in subordinate articles, e.g., for Stockholm. Regards, Hennejohn (talk) 21:58, 7 October 2012 (CEST)

If you could be a bit more specific as to what exactly you would like information on, other than the rate, I'd be happy to add it. Sertmann (talk) 22:54, 7 October 2012 (CEST)

Good observation. VAT information might include: For what kinds of purchases, lodging or fees-for-service (e.g., taxis) does it apply? Is it usually included in prices listed or added at the point of sale/use? What is the basic VAT rate...or rates if they vary by type of item purchased or service rendered? Can visitors obtain refunds for any items purchased, e.g., as they leave the country or the Schengen (sp?) Area; if so, basically how and where? Are other kinds of taxes levied on visitors besides VAT; if so, what? Thanks for asking, Hennejohn (talk) 23:51, 30 October 2012 (CET)

Regions

As the three lands of Sweden are a bit too few, and have weak cultural identities, maybe we should consider splitting them up? Götaland could be divided into Southern Sweden (Scania & Blekinge), Western Sweden (Västergötland, Dalsland, Bohuslän and Halland), Southeastern Sweden (Småland, Öland, Gotland and Östergötland). What do you think? /Yvwv (talk) 16:40, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Current map of Sweden is not according to our standards and I can create a new map but I'm confused with the regions. --Saqib (talk) 17:25, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Sweden's regions seem indeed to be a bit messed up. Traditionally Sweden is divided into three parts; Norrland (red on the map), Svealand (green) and Götaland (blue) which are then subdivided into regions ("län"). Somebody has cut up the last one in three parts without changing map here on the Sweden article and then put the Götaland map both in the Western and Southeastern Sweden articles. Saqib, I guess you're not personally familiar with Sweden but perhaps you can read something out of the Götaland map. In addition I can see that the colors in the Western Sweden article don't fit with the ones in the map either, but the names of the regions in the map are fortunately correct. So, I'd say, update the map on the Sweden article into the current five regions and make new maps for West and Southeast. I'm also gonna let Yvwv know about this discussion. ϒpsilon (talk) 09:53, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I was looking for a source map to trace the new map but I'm confused which one to use, because there's some difference in the provinces boundaries, For example Halland. See the map here and this one. --Saqib (talk) 10:10, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I just remembered it. Sweden can be subdivided in two different ways, a more traditional and a more official/administrative. At a first glance at the Götaland map I earlier referred to it looks like some creative individual has used a little bit of both systems when subdividing Sweden. Frankly talking, I don't know what to say. ϒpsilon (talk) 10:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Hurray, its done! --Saqib (talk) 15:19, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Once again I can say: great job! ϒpsilon (talk) 20:03, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Nice map! /Yvwv (talk) 00:31, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Longer stays and "personnummer"

I have the impression that opening a bank account, getting your salary etc. - and sometimes even quite mundane tasks - is nearly impossible without a Swedish "personnummer" (social security code?). This should be mentioned at least in the Work section, together with some discussion about getting one. --LPfi (talk) 12:11, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Regional division

OK now, it's been a year that the division as discussed above is in place and I don't think we achieved much but confusion with it. Loads and loads of levels of articles containing but a few notes and long lists of redlinks now await the weary traveller foolish enough to think they will be aided in exploring Sweden by our guides. One has to click through numerous regions to find out that, apart from the few main cities which are to a large extent accessible from the main article, there is not much more there we can advise upon.

I know Sweden holds a wealth of opportunities to explore, and every little municipality is worth discovering but, realistically, we won't be able to cover that for the time being. All we do is create an impression that we are an unprepared mess and the traveller should go elsewhere for information on Sweden, or that Sweden is a complicated destination and they should stick to Denmark instead :D

Seriously - I propose revisiting the split. I may have overlooked a case proving otherwise, but I'd go by this:

• Keep the first-level split into Gotaland, Svealand and Norrland - there may be more cultural diversity to Gotaland, but there simply isn't enough content to merit the split, and we would need many more new maps (for now, Western Sweden and Southeast Sweden, which are regions nobody outside of Wikivoyage heard of, use the general Gotaland map)
• Then go by counties - they are to a large extent following the historical province borders and when they don't, they make more sense than historical provinces, like in the case of Stockholm county vs. Uppland / Sodermanland. Counties are also quite easy to find references to in other sources, have actual local administrations and bodies resulting from them (regulating transport, tourism etc.) and are easy to refer to.
• The directly to municipalities and cities

If we believe that Gotaland, Svealand and Norrland don't add much, we can try to remove them and simply licts the 21 counties under three headings, but I guess the geographic composition of Sweden would make Gotaland hard to make out, so I can see the benefit of adding this level. There is also a pronounced difference between Gotaland, which is, by Swedish standards, densely inhabited and filled with destinations and transportation opportunities, Norrland which is anything but, and Svealand, which is Stockholm and the lakes, forests and small towns west of it.

I know I sound harsh but I wanted to make a very pronounced point here. I believe we are NOT helping the traveller by adding theoretically good, but practically confusing regional divisions here. Until we get too much content to handle, let's make whatever we have accessible and easy to navigate. PrinceGloria (talk) 04:56, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I think you stumbled upon my recent outbreak post at Talk:Western Sweden?

Anyways, I do agree that the current region division of Sweden to a large extent does "look devilish", as one would say in Swedish. There are many small subdivisions that are just there... because they are there. The traditional large division of Sweden is into Norrland, Svealand and Götaland and this would be a logical division for our article as well. But let me propose another version: Scania and Gotland as the fourth and fifth region directly under Sweden - they are culturally different enough from the rest of Götaland and Sweden and in that way we'd also keep ourself inside the 7 2 rule. Listing all the 21 counties directly in the Sweden article, that's just too much.

By the way, we have about equally many counties in Finland and there it works very well to have 4 larger regions (+Åland) and 4-6 counties in each of those.

Then we come to the counties and their content. I absolutely agree we do not need anything between the counties and the municipalities and cities. Let's just list them in the county articles.

As Stockholm is divided between Uppland and Sörmland I would keep Stockholm as an independent entry in Svealand, just like it is now. To speak of that, let's first finish Sthlm before moving on to this larger project. ϒpsilon (talk) 06:14, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

As a matter of fact I have not seen your note at Talk:Western Sweden before you pointed it out to me - I was rather looking for a way to sort out the madness surrounding Stockholm. I believe that having Stockholm Country separate from any other county/province, directly under Svealand, could help with that - we could allocate all the stuff surrounding Stockholm to either one of the Stockholm districts or one of the extra 3-5 articles on other municipalities or larger divisions within the county. That would help a lot IMHO.

I did forget about Gotland completely, I am truly sorry - I am alright with making it an extra region. As regard Scania, I am not quite sure what will be achieved by keeping it separate - it is a county, and any extra subdivision thereof as now present (Middle Scania? How about Southeastern Middle Scania?) is superfluous to me. If we decide to keep Scania as a part of Gotaland, we could use the old maps and the redistrictification would be pretty much painless. I could even agree on having some counties combined, e.g. the three ones into Smaland, as they are now, just to avoid making that many new maps. PrinceGloria (talk) 06:25, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Those silly small subdivisions of Scania should most definitely be thrown out of the window! Nevertheless I do think of Scania as different from the rest of Sweden, maybe it is because of the landscape and the Danish-like dialect they speak there. Just "greying out" Gotland and Scania from the current static regions' map for Götaland is done in a minute. ϒpsilon (talk) 06:51, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I am OK with having Scania and Götaland separate if you are willing to edit the maps. We could use one more person supporting us and I think we can have a go at it, given the general lack of interest in Sweden among users here. PrinceGloria (talk) 07:20, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Danapit might be interested? Perchance User:Jonte-- too.

Will fix the maps this evening. ϒpsilon (talk) 07:29, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Done ϒpsilon (talk) 17:17, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

And in addition to the maps, now all the articles are properly organized too! Phew! There are just those small practically empty in-between categories in Scania and Västergötland but that may wait until a later point (and some cleanup would do them good). For now, let's concentrate on Stockholm and it's surroundings. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:51, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Brilliant, tack sa mycket! We may need a new map for the whole of Sweden now though - if you would get down to it at any point, you may want to add some detail to the otherwise quite empty map - e.g. mark the county boundaries, major roads and railroads and perhaps major airports which see scheduled passenger traffic. PrinceGloria (talk) 19:02, 16 June 2014 (UTC)