Talk:The Negro Motorist's Green Book

The Negro Motorist's Green Book

Swept in from the pub

Hi, I write about black issues and I'd like to create a page on here for the best locations for black travelers.

My username is based on The Negro Motorist's Green Book, a book published in the first half of the 20th Century that helped black people find welcoming environments for travel.

I would like to create an article by that title to help black people find environments where they feel welcome and safe. The Negro Motorist Green Book (talk) 03:35, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

https://negromotoristgreenbook.si.edu/ The Negro Motorist Green Book (talk) 03:36, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Great! Glad you're here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:28, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

I second this. Looking forward to it! SHB2000 (t | c | m) 05:10, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

@NatGertler: A bit of a longshot, but you're active on our sister projects and it's possible that you may want to collaborate here on this topic. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:56, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

I have at least looked at this discussion. I'm no travel expert. (For those looking on, Justin tagged me because I publish the facsimile editions of original Green Book volumes that you can purchase at the gift shops of museums and historic sites.) But I'll be glad to answer things if I can help. -- NatGertler (talk) 23:17, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

We wouldn't normally have an article on The Negro Motorist's Green Book (or any other travel guide).

A more typical thing to do would be to add points of interest to city articles, or to expand descriptions to mention relevant facts. For example, Detroit/Downtown needs an entry on the historically important Black church, the Second Baptist Church https://www.secondbaptistdetroit.org/. You can decide whether you think it fits better under Detroit/Downtown#Architecture or in a Wikivoyage:Where you can stick it#Cope section.

Many cities need descriptions that mention that a recommended business is Black-owned, or a new entry for a decent place to get a good haircut.

A third way to contribute is to create Wikivoyage:Itineraries. If there are businesses that were listed in The Negro Motorist's Green Book that still exist, and they would make a reasonable trip (e.g., stay at this 80-year-old Black-owned motel, have breakfast at this 90-year-old Black-owned restaurant across the street, etc.), then an itinerary that follows the old routes across a state or through a region might be very interesting. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:04, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

I like the idea of an article, but I am not sure about the name. I saw the 2018 film Green Book and I think we should keep the Green Book title free for either an article based on the original books, or an itinerary following the film journey. The term green book may not be well understood outside the US, and those who don't know of the books may not like some words in the title.

I assume the article will mainly be about general travel advice for black travellers, and that specific details will go in destination articles. Will the advice be applicable worldwide or just in the US? Will it only appeal to motorists, or is public transit in scope? AlasdairW (talk) 22:49, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Just as a quick note, the term ''Green Book'' may be reasonably understood outside the US because of the feature film, which [https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt6966692/?ref_=bo_se_r_1 grossed] $85 million in the US but $237 mill outside of the country. -- NatGertler (talk) 23:22, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

In the interim, I've added a pagebanner for now – is there any way we can get italic text on page banners? --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 23:21, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

I have attempted to add it to several pages (e.g. Breaking Bad and Mission: Impossible), but it doesn't work. :/ —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:08, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh well – I guess we'll have to live with it for now. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 00:15, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I think there's no problem with a travel guide themed around a historic guidebook that is no longer updated, and that it's in fact a great idea. I also don't think there's a problem with using the historic title. Similarly, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People proudly maintains its historic name and offends no-one by so doing. All that said, we could discuss on the article's talk page whether to change the title to The Black Motorist's Green Book. I think that would be a bit of a falsification and anachronism, but I wouldn't lose sleep over it if that were the consensus pick. In the meantime, the article needs actual content! Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:04, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Ikan, it seems that if you talk to a generation or two younger than us, it appears that many of them think that "Negro" is actual "the N-word". This is apparently common enough that if school teachers who are teaching historic texts (like Martin Luther King Jr's "I Have a Dream" speech) feel it necessary to explain this point.

(Also: Hooray for a world in which some kids have never heard that racial slur.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:28, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

It makes complete sense to contextualize history. We need to do that in this article, too. I should say, when I was growing up, "Negro" was becoming increasingly old-fashioned and gradually became more offensive. But that's how things go. "It sucks" was an extremely obscene expression when it was commonly used by my 7th-grade class, and if a teacher heard you say it, you'd be in trouble. Now, it's totally normal, and hardly anyone thinks of it as short for "it sucks cock" and so forth, like we did. So words and expressions can become offensive or inoffensive as time goes on. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:39, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Let me note that the last two editions of the Green Book (the 1963-1964 and 1966-1967 editions) did not have "Negro" in the cover title; they were simply Travelers' Green Book. So that is an option if it is decided that the original title is a problem. -- NatGertler (talk) 03:45, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

OK, that's definitely a consideration. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:30, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I gotta say as a non-American, to me, that word is simply a Spanish word translated into English but used as a derogatory term, but I agree with Ikan. Could maybe be that I'm not from the US and I'm probably way younger than most of you guys here. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 05:55, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I think that it's odd for Wikivoyage to take something that exists and claim it as our own. For example, we have Narrow Road to the Deep North, which highlights the travels of Matsuo Basho. If one of us were "inspired" by his travels and made our own "Road to the deep north" highlighting what sights we personally visited or recommend in the Tohoku region or if we edited the current article to highlight "better" places, it would be confusing. Using a historic travel book for a topic that isn't about that book will also make it difficult for anyone who might find it useful to find the article.

I also have questions about what the intended contents will be exactly regarding the metrics determing where to avoid or recommend, the scope, and even who "the Negro" is in the modern context, but I don't want to jump too quick to judgment without giving it a chance. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 12:18, 18 September 2024 (UTC)