User talk:Идеологист

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Hello, Идеологист! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

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Thank you for your edits to Strumica. You wrote that the Orta mosque has been closed for many years due to structural fragility. Does that mean the museum has closed? Is there anything worth seeing at the mosque site (i.e. is the outside interesting or beautiful?) If not, we should delete it, because we don't keep records of closed attractions and businesses.

Let me know what you think. Regards, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:08, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Hello! Thank you for the warm welcome and the additional editing!

I was thinking about removing the Orta mosque from the list, but I wasn't sure if that will mean vandalizing the article. However I should really say that it is a place that is nearly always mentioned when people from the museum or generally from the tourism sphere number the locations in the city that are historically/culturally important and/or have tourist potential. Yes, the place is completely closed (to be honest as a local I've never seen it opened for public) and you can only watch it from across the street. This building is in a somewhat residential neighborhood where, as a local, I've never seen tourists come by themselves, without someone that will guide them. So mainly for this I think it is better to be removed until the local museum that has the authority over the building decides to open it as a tourist location. Идеологист (talk) 17:45, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

That's fine, we'll remove it then. Maybe one day the mosque will reopen, but I imagine restoring it to make it safe will cost a lot of money.

In future, please plunge forward when you see something that shouldn't be in an article. It's understandable to be cautious, but nobody should accuse you of vandalism if you explain your edit in the summary box (exactly as you did here). Plus, if you make a mistake at any time, it only takes a couple of clicks to undo it!

Hope you have a good evening, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:47, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Oh, by the way, if you can add at least one restaurant listing to the 'Eat' section (maybe a couple of your favourites in town), then we can upgrade the Strumica article from 'outline' to 'usable', which would be really nice.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:58, 27 July 2020 (UTC) Done

Hello and welcome. I reverted your deletion of the Orta Mosque listing prior to reading the discussion here. Perhaps it would be better to mention that the mosque is not open to the public at this time rather than deleting it entirely. Local hero (talk) 22:03, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Hey. We developed a discussion about this with ThunderingTyphoons! on my talk page (just above). I listed the current situation with this place. The place is closed for public. You can only see it from across the street, but as I mention above: This building is in a somewhat residential neighborhood where, as a local, I've never seen tourists come by themselves, without someone that will guide them. Идеологист (talk) 22:09, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Additional: Since we are discussing places that are not always accessible for the public, I should mention the Old Turkish Post Office (Open the See section of Strumica; also this post office is just accross the Orta mosque, see Google Maps for further Орта џамија Струмица, Турска пошта Струмица). The post office is also under the authority of the museum and is opened only for special occasions. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but I've seen it open only on organized tours or special events that the museum does. Идеологист (talk) 22:17, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict)If it's been closed for years, I don't see the point in mentioning it at all. It's not like Notre Dame de Paris where it's (a) world-famous and (b) definitely going to reopen, it's just a closed place of worship.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:10, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

@ThunderingTyphoons!: I guess that's where I'd disagree (check out the mk wiki article). This is a structure dating from the 11th century and it features historic Ottoman architecture. It is inscribed on the List of Cultural Heritage of Macedonia. Regardless of whether it is open to visitors, I strongly believe it warrants being in the guide. Its location being in a out-of-the-way area shouldn't mean much either; the Skopje Aqueduct is far from anything else interesting in the city. Local hero (talk) 03:37, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Идеологист: regarding the Old Turkish Post Office, this building isn't as significant as the Orta Mosque but in writing the guide I found its architecture warranted it a listing, especially with its use in special exhibitions. I guess it really is a subjective discussion. Anyway, I look forward to your improvements on the guide and perhaps other nearby guides like Novo Selo :) I've only been to Strumica a couple times so I'm sure there's plenty of room for improvement. Local hero (talk) 04:00, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Local hero: @ThunderingTyphoons!: My suggestion is to either return the Orta Mosque to the See section, adding that it is closed for public, or mention it in a paragraph explaining the multiculturalism and rich history of Strumica in the Understanding section. I am for the second option, to be honest, since my opinion is that the See section should list places that are easily accessible and are in a way touristic locations. I would like to hear from both of you first. Идеологист (talk) 06:10, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

If this place is "nearly always mentioned when people from the museum or generally from the tourism sphere number the locations in the city that are historically/culturally important and/or have tourist potential", it should certainly be mentioned, and I think it earns a See listing (change Churches to Churches and mosques, to have a natural place for it). One should mention that it is closed and a bit away, but many readers might want to take the detour. --LPfi (talk) 08:30, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I might has misread that ("nearly always mentioned..."), but I took it to mean that it's mentioned by tourism professionals within their own circles and in the town's administration, not necessarily in literature for visitors. If consensus is for mentioning it in 'See', then I support that, though listing somewhere that people don't visit is still odd to me.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:46, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

OK. I don't know the mosque, nor the town or even the country, so others should decide. I got the impression that it was among the most important historic buildings in the town, and if that is true, somebody who wants to see it should get the information from us, even if most visitors to the site come by tour. The section on churches is not too crowded, and also the See section manageable, so I think there is room for it even if few visit – and there is a point in having Churches and mosques instead of just Churches, to show the multicultural heritage. --LPfi (talk) 09:19, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't know any better than you. My impression is that the only person in this discussion who is familiar with Strumica is Идеологист, though perhaps Local hero also knows the town.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:35, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I think we reached a common ground; I'll return the Orta Mosque to the See section with mentioning its importance and its current state. @LPfi: I agree that it can be listed in a separate section subtitle, but it can't be in a Churches and mosques one since the Orta Mosque is a museum today. Perhaps a Old religious buildings subsection will do the job as it can include both current and former religious buildings. Идеологист (talk) 09:45, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

This is a new experience for me. I am really amazed that all of you didn't hesitate to leave a opinion about how an article should be written for a city that is not important outside the country and to a broader extent for the bordering region in Bulgaria. Thank you again! Идеологист (talk) 09:56, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Wikivoyagers are nothing if not busybodies :P --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:36, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I guess since the Orta Mosque was a church prior to Ottoman rule, it could go under the churches section. However, I still think the best placement is just under the top part, not under any particular subsection. Local hero (talk) 13:41, 28 July 2020 (UTC)