Talk:Chinese revolutions

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"Disastrous failures"[edit]

Re: this passage:

According to the Communist Party, the Revolution had several phases, including the Great Leap Forward from 1958-1962, and the Cultural Revolution from 1966 until Mao's death in 1976. Both of these are regarded as disastrous failures that resulted in the deaths of millions of people.

Regarded as "disastrous failures" by whom? Is that the Communist Party line? If so, that needs to be directly stated, and that shouldn't be the last word. The "Great Leap Forward" surely fits the designation of "disastrous failure", because Mao surely didn't intend for his policy of deemphasizing farming in favor of factories to result in famines. If forcing urban intellectuals incompetent to farm to nevertheless do farm work during the Cultural Revolution resulted in any deaths by famine, I would accept that as an unintended consequence, too. However, at least the bulk of the deaths in the Cultural Revolution were not from famine but from murders; see w:Cultural Revolution for a quick reference. The Cultural Revolution was surely calamitous, but the deaths were murders carried out by the party and the dislocation and delayed higher education that occurred were also direct — and not as in the "Great Leap Forward", indirect — consequences of official policy. I think we need to address these things and not risk seeming to pretend that mass murders carried out by a government were mere "failures". Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:48, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying portray a fair portrait that both of these caused a huge amount of harm to China. Re-phrase it if you think there's a better way of conveying that. The key point that I'm trying to make is that Mao's policies resulted in the deaths of millions of innocent people, but I want to do it in a way that doesn't come off as propaganda. The dog2 (talk) 13:38, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say it currently comes across as propaganda. Deaths from famine caused by bad policies can be a horrible mistake; mass executions are not. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:32, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Edited. Now, another question: Hua Guofeng was Mao's "designated successor", per w:Hua Guofeng, but what about Jiang Qing and the rest of the so-called "Gang of Four"? They always seemed to me like the direct ideological successors to Mao, who worked to continue the Cultural Revolution. Hua as I remember calmed things after they were defeated and represented a kind of interregnum before Deng was able to rehabilitate himself and take power. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:46, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You're actually right about that. Hua Guofeng arrested the Gang of Four and managed to calm thing down, but he also insisted on adhering to communist principles. However, he later lost the power struggle to the more reformist-minded Deng Xiaoping, and it was Deng Xiaoping's reforms that led to China's economic rise and lifted over 800 million people out of poverty. The dog2 (talk) 20:55, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:14, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I've expanded it a little. Please copyedit as you appropriate. The dog2 (talk) 23:31, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's better. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:15, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Words in Chinese[edit]

I thought we agreed not to write words in Chinese as well as English unless it was travel-relevant. I may be mistaken. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:15, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree these historical terms aren't necessary, though they do feel more appropriate here (in a historical travel topic article) than in the main China article. I might suggest keeping 孙中山 Sun Zhongshan, as his most common name in English (孙逸仙 Sun Yat-sen) is not as well known in China. (By the way, the pronunciation of Hua Guofeng's surname can easily trip up an intermediate or advanced Mandarin learner—even my dictionary gets it wrong!) —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:36, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Since this is a historical travel article, I think having these names is more useful here than in the main China article. If you're going to look for historical sites connected to these important historical figures, you're going to have to know the Chinese names to ask Chinese people where to find them. I haven't translated everything into Chinese, but only the more important names. And yes, you're right regarding Hua Guofeng. The Chinese character 华 is usually pronounced huá, but as a surname, as well as in the name of the Chinese mountain Huashan, it is pronounced huà. If you want another example (not concerning any names in the article), 区 is usually pronounced , but as a surname, it is pronounced ōu The dog2 (talk) 20:24, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Usable status[edit]

I have upgraded this article to usable status per Wikivoyage:Travel topic status. @The dog2: or others who are knowledgeable about this topic — let me know if there is a reason why the article should be returned to outline status. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:54, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have no objections. The dog2 (talk) 15:57, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]