Talk:Delmarva Peninsula

Move content about Delmarva as a whole to this guide?

This guide didn't exist until a day or two ago: There's probably a lot content in the region guides that apply to Delmarva as a whole, and not those regions specifically. Maybe we should move that content to this guide, and let the region guides focus specifically on their regions. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 02:56, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, that sounds sensible. With a summary and a pointer to this article left in those region articles. The only possible concern is not to shortchange Delaware as a state article in the hierarchy. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:00, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I'd probably be doing that myself, but I'm no expert on the area. I'm not sure what applies to Delmarva-as-a-whole, and what applies to the regions specifically. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk)

And I've realized I missed an obvious solution: Looking stuff up. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 05:16, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I wouldn't be too worried about shortchanging Delaware. State or not, it's a bottom-level region article. At some point, we can replace Delaware with Delmarva on the Mid-Atlantic guide, if Delaware becomes too shortchanged.

But as for a summary and a pointer to this article: How do we do that? Could you give me an example of an article like that? Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 07:28, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Delaware is an article for a state, so in that respect, it's more important than a bottom-level region article for someplace like Cattaraugus County, New York. Replacing it with an extra-region article would be unprecedented and I don't think it would work well in terms of WV:Breadcrumb navigation, because what would it then be subordinate to?

Off the top of my head, I would think of a summary as looking something like this:

"Areas of Delaware which are south of the Delaware and Chesapeake Canal are part of the Delmarva Peninsula, along with the eastern coastal regions of Maryland and Virginia. You can read more about Delmarva in general in the article about that peninsula." Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:01, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

It'd be subordinate to the Delmarva article. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 08:10, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

And you'd propose to breadcrumb Delmarva to what? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:17, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I've already breadcrumbed Delmarva to the Mid-Atlantic, same as Delaware and Maryland. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 08:22, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Right, but this is an extra-region article because it is a region that crosses state boundaries. I wouldn't agree with breadcrumbing a state to an extra-region. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:27, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I think there's been a misunderstanding. All I'm saying is: If Delaware gets shortchanged in favor of Delmarva, then an easy solution would be for the Mid-Atlantic article to send readers to the Delmarva article instead of the Delaware article (that means Delmarva wouldn't be an extra-hierarchical region). I'm not proposing that Delaware be made an extra-hierarchical region. It's possible Delaware might become an EHR in the future, if we decide to reorganize Delmarva's regions by geography rather then by state lines. But I think that's a ways off. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 08:37, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Have I made my position clear? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:45, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

No. I'm still confused, and I still don't know what you think my position is. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 08:48, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Oh. I misread your posts, you didn't say anything about Delaware becoming an extra-hierarchical region. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 08:54, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

[unindent] (1) Delaware is a state article that should be breadcrumbed only to the Mid-Atlantic region. (2) This is an extra-hierarchical region article, and breadcrumbed as such to Mid-Atlantic. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:00, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

And to be clear, that's as it should be. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:00, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm inclined to say that, if the "Delmarva" and "Delaware" articles were equally developed, then it'd be better for "Mid-Atlantic" to send readers to the "Delmarva" article. Like I said at Talk:Delaware#Should the lead explain Delmarva?, I think Delmarva's a more natural and useful region for the traveler then Delaware.

If that happened, I don't picture Delmarva being an extra-hierarchical region. Yes, Delmarva includes parts of two other states, in addition to Delaware. But I don't see that being much of a problem: Serbia lists Kosovo, and that situation is a little more complicated then the one we'd have here. I think "Virginia" and "Maryland" can continue to list and cover their parts of Delmarva, without really caring that the "Delmarva" articles covers them as well. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 09:29, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I disagree, and please see where Kosovo is breadcrumbed to. It is not an extra-hierarchical region at all, but a country, and recognized as such by a majority of U.N. members.

Please understand: By definition, extra-hierarchical regions are not part of the breadcrumb navigation trail. I don't think you can find any other example of any land being part of two breadcrumb trails, and that's by design. If you find such an example, it would be a mistake. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:39, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

If I'm reading this right: Turkey is part of two breadcrumb trails, the Middle East and Europe. The Europe guide seems to list and cover Turkey, same as it would any other European country. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 05:04, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I think you're not reading it right. The breadcrumb trail is at the upper left of the page, and in the case of Turkey, it is breadcrumbed to Middle East, which is then breadcrumbed to Asia. Of course, Turkey is also part of Europe, so it makes sense to cover the country in the article about Europe, too, but there is only one breadcrumb trail per article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:38, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I think you've made my point for me. Maybe there's technically only one breadcrumb trail (if for no other reason, because the technical limitations of {{IsPartOf}} prevent it from showing more then one trail). But the Europe guide is happy enough to treat Turkey as part of the Europe region, regardless of what {{IsPartOf}} says, or if the Middle East guide covers Turkey.

And it's the same here. The Maryland and Virginia guides can cover their Eastern Shores, regardless of what {{IsPartOf}} says, or weather Delmarva is or isn't labeled as an extra-hierarchical region. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 07:28, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I didn't realize that was your point and definitely don't disagree with it. The thing I'd disagree with would be to breadcrumb this article to Mid-Atlantic, with Delaware not breadcrumbed to that article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:50, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think the problem is that all the other states of the US have their own region article within the regular hierarchy, so it would be very confusing if you would take out Delaware as it would break with that convention. It sometimes makes sense to not use political borders, but in this case I think this would be inconsistent.

Furthermore if you add this article to the regular hierarchy, you would create an overlap with the two other states articles, which is something we should avoid. (See also this: Wikivoyage:Geographical_hierarchy#Overlap).

I think this region is exactly one of those cases that extraregions are for, as it straddles three different states.

The description of extraregion says: "These extra articles usually provide only basic information and links to articles in the hierarchy. This article can be expanded if the information is specific to the page; otherwise new text should generally go in the appropriate region or city article." So I think this should really only serve as a sort of general overview of what this region contains and information which is pertinent to the region as a whole, but most detail should go into the articles in the regular hierarchy. I see there is some duplicate content copied over from the Delaware article, and I don't think that is a good idea, as in future edits one of them might get edited and not the other one, which will lead to inconsistencies. Drat70 (talk) 07:57, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

[unindent] I see your point about how listing Delmarva in a list of states could be confusing.

As for copying information over: I think we agree. My goal isn't simply to copy information from the region guides. The region guides have quite a bit of content that applies to Delmarva as a whole; I want to move that content into this guide. Let this guide cover Delmarva as a whole, and let the region guides specifically cover information that applies to that region. That's why I started this discussion, but then we got sidetracked talking about breadcrumbs and all.

But when someone reads a region guide: I want him to know that the region guide is abridged, and that he needs to see this guide to get the full picture (this is an extra-hierarchical region, most readers are going to get to the region guides from the main hierarchy). I'm just not sure how to go about that. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 04:07, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

I have an idea: How does this look? Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 06:33, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Virginia and the Civil War

About this edit: I don't think we should go into that much detail about Virginia and the Civil War. This isn't a Civil War article, or even the Virginia article. I think just saying that Virginia was a border state is enough. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 00:26, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

You mean a Confederate state. I rather agree. West Virginia also isn't part of Delmarva. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:34, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Actually, Virginia was one of those border states with two competing state governments: One loyal to the Union and one loyal to the Confederacy: wikipedia:Restored Government of Virginia. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 00:56, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

IIRC the "border states" are usually those four slave states that stayed loyal to the Union - Kentucky, Maryland, Delaware, Missouri. Of course Delaware would like all people to forgot they were ever considered even remotely "Southern" as soon as possible. The others are still seen as varying degrees of "Southern" by many. Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:23, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Virginia did stay loyal to the Union: If you believe the Restored Government of Virginia. Kentucky and Missouri seceded and joined the Confederacy, if you believe their pro-Confederate state governments. Looking at a map of blue states and gray states oversimplifies the picture.

As for Delaware wanting people to forget that they were Southern: Isn't that just the part of Delaware north of the canal, the Wilmington area? Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 21:37, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

I thought all Confederate states but South Carolina had a region that remained loyal to the Union. Does that make, for example, Alabama not a Confederate state? I was always taught that Virginia was Confederate, and indeed, it contained the capital of the Ccnfederacy. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:58, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Maybe they did all have areas that remained loyal to the Union. But I think only Virginia, Kentucky, and Missouri actuality had pro-Union state governments that competed with the pro-Confederate governments. But the maps tend to show Virginia as gray, and Kentucky and Missouri as blue. And yes, the Confederate capital was Richmond, Virginia. —The preceding comment was added by Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk • contribs)

Point taken. The Virginia Unionist government became West Virginia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:39, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

It's a little more complicated then that. The Virginia Unionist government created West Virginia, but remained the government of (East) Virginia, and continued to have the same Governor. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 02:11, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, this is better. But I still think that puts too much focus on the Civil War. Maybe we should just remove the bit about the Civil War altogether. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 06:47, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Why? It was one of the most important events in the history of the area and the definition of "the South" that excludes geographically Southern places like Arizona is a direct consequence of the Civil War. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:01, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Is Delmarva Southern?

But anyway, this stuff about the Virginia Unionist government isn't what's impotent. What's impotent is what Hobbitschuster said about Delaware wanting people to forget they were ever Southern. Is this just Greater Wilmington, the part of Delaware north of the canal? Or is that the area south of the canal as well?

Because if it's just Wilmington, then that's consistent with the Delmarva articles: Delaware\Delmarva south of the canal is Southern. But if it's the area south of the canal as well, then the Delmarva articles are grossly intact in portraying Delmarva as Southern!

We may have to do some digging to find out results of self-identification as Southern by region. Here's one in which people who identified as Southerners got to rate whether various different states are Southern or not, which is not the same thing as self-identification. Identification as Southern is a personal thing. I've read articles about it, but I'm having a hell of a time trying to find maps or lists of self-identification as Southern by state, let alone sub-state region. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:57, 22 August 2017 (UTC)