Talk:Moselle Valley (Luxembourg)

Title

Wauteurz, this title in my opinion is ambiguous because the Districts_of_Luxembourg were 3 and the Cantons of Luxembourg are 12. None of them is called "Moselle" (and clearly none of them "Moselle District")

I would suggest to change the name into "Luxembourgish Moselle Valley" in line with the German and Italian articles. In this way will be clear that the name do not comes from an administrative division. --Andyrom75 (talk) 22:15, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

That's fine, but are we using that adjective or "Luxembourgois"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:34, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Ikan Kekek, I'm not a native English/French speaker so I'm not able to catch the difference between these two words. "Luxembourgois" sounds French infact is very similar to the French "Luxembourgeois", but when I've tried to translate "Luxembourgeois" from French, or "Lussemburghese" from Italian I got "Luxembourgish".

An example to explain you my doubt. Both "Egizio" and "Egiziano" are translated in English with "Egyptian", but in Italian, "Egizio" is typically referred to the "Ancient Egyptian" while "Egiziano" to the "modern" one. --Andyrom75 (talk) 10:04, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Right. The thing is, English often uses French words, and I just don't know which adjective is normally used in English. I hope someone who does posts here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:08, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

AndreCarrotflower, maybe you could support? --Andyrom75 (talk) 11:14, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

According to Wiktionary, either Luxembourgish or Luxembourgian can be a valid adjective for anything, well, Luxembourgian. Luxembourgeois (it means nothing without the e) however can only be a person from Luxembourg, but is limited in usage to only the French language. I believe I used "Luxembourgian" consistently through the articles that I made, but I am not a native English speaker either, so it mightn't have been the best choice.

Either way, it's been a few years since I last visited Luxembourg, but if I recall correctly, I named these districts based on how I saw them referred to in English while there. Many of these names (like Guttland) are still used by visitluxembourg.com today, excluding the Moselle District. I'm willing to bet that my logic for naming it as such would have been it being the Grevenmacher District, but that not being too descriptive. I myself wouldn't be too happy if we suddenly start naming the Eastern Netherlands as "Zwolle Region", so I substituted Grevenmacher with the Moselle, as is a key feature in the entire region that for as far as I know is more descriptive of the area. The word "District" wouldn't have been something that needed to be changed in that scenario. I personally don't think the name is too bothersome as-is, but I can see how it would imply to be a name derived from an administrative district. In fairness, this article covers exactly the same area as the Grevenmacher District, so in some way it is do with the administrative districts. I'm not for or against anything here. If the consensus is to change it, I'm fine with it so long as it's named for the Moselle.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 12:54, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

So according to Wauteurz's POV the choices are the followings:

1. Luxembourgish Moselle Valley
2. Luxembourgian Moselle Valley
3. Luxembourgeois Moselle Valley

Since we have to choose the more appropriate (if any) English word to use, I think would be preferable to have feedback from native English speaker. --Andyrom75 (talk) 13:39, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Number three isn't an option to me. "Luxembourgeois" doesn't mean anything in English. In French, it's a person from Luxembourg, but this isn't French Wikivoyage. I'm also open to something that isn't "Moselle Valley", so long as it contains the name of the river or region. "Luxembourgian Moselle Region" or simply "Luxembourgian Moselle" or the even shorter "Musel" (Luxembourgian name of the greater wine region) are also a-okay by those rules. I don't have a very strong preference either way.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 13:49, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, my fault, I've misunderstood. Now I've strikethrough the third option.

Initially I've thought as you for a shorter name, but "Moselle" is the river or the French department, so to avoid misunderstanding I think it would be better to specify "Valley" as done in both de:voy and it:voy. --Andyrom75 (talk) 14:23, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

ThunderingTyphoons! could you help for the choice? --Andyrom75 (talk) 16:14, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

"Luxembourgish" is the better adjective to use, as I've not heard of "Luxembourgian" before (not denying its existence, but it's probably not common), however I don't think using any adjective is particularly 'English'. Calling this the "Luxembourgish Moselle Valley" implies it's the valley of the Luxembourgish Moselle; I'd rather use Moselle Valley (Luxembourg), and possibly move the existing Moselle Valley article to Moselle Valley (Germany). Either that, or forget about the Moselle altogether and call it Grevenmacher District.

This with the caveat that I have never been to Luxembourg nor to any other river Moselle than the one in Tottenham.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:36, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Sorry for the misspelling above. According to w:Districts of Luxembourg: "The districts were abolished per 3 October 2015 leaving the Cantons, of which there are 12...." See w:Cantons of Luxembourg for a map. It would appear that this Wikivoyage region would comprise two cantons: Grevenmacher and Remich; however the former Grevenmacher District also included Echternach canton, which is treated as a different Wikivoyage region by itself called "Mullerthal". So I think "Grevenmacher District" won't work as the name for this article unless we merge Mullerthal into it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:50, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

I can say from experience that both regions are not oriented towards each other much, at least not in ways that the traveller would notice or in ways that would benefit the traveller. Moselle is oriented towards the Moselle river and has a notable wine industry. The Mullerthal is oriented towards the Sauer/Sûre river and is best known for its forests and landscape. Both regions have, from what I know, completely different identities. Merging the two would not very helpful to the traveller in my perception.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 11:58, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

So I think we should probably use Moselle Valley (Luxembourg) for the title of this article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:01, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Agreed, seems like a fine enough name to me.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 22:29, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Ok, so wrapping up there are two choices:

• Option 1
  1. Move current "Moselle District" into "Luxembourgish Moselle Valley"
• Option 2
  1. Move current "Moselle District" into "Moselle Valley (Luxembourg)"
  2. Move "Moselle Valley" into "Moselle Valley (Germany)"
  3. Creating a disambig on "Moselle Valley"

Which is the preferred scenario? --Andyrom75 (talk) 23:03, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

2, though I won't insist on changing the Germany one if others have the opinion it's the more notable.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:07, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

ThunderingTyphoons!, as specified both on w:en and voy:de, Mosella Valley includes areas of three Countries (Luxembourg, France and Germany), so I would say that a disambig is necessary. --Andyrom75 (talk) 08:11, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Option 2 seems the neatest. What would be the advantage of Option 1, other than less work to make the change? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:15, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Ikan Kekek just preferences. Initially I was for option 1, but after I was aware about the existence of "Moselle Valley" article, I would go for option 2. I agree that this is the clearer approach. --Andyrom75 (talk) 09:23, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Also in favour of option 2 here. As far as notability goes, I can say with some certainty that when people here in the Netherlands say they're going to the Moezel (Moselle), they almost always mean the French region. I presume that following after that comes the German part of the region, with the Luxembourgian region in third. For as far as linking France in the disambig goes, I'm guessing it'd either be a link to Grand Est or the cities in the region that are covered here (Metz, Nancy and Épinal).
-- Wauteurz (talk) 10:05, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Agree with Wauteurz for the "Moselle ranking".

Since we reached a consensus, I'll proceed on reorganizing the article as per "option 2". As usual, you all feel free to improve the disambig once created :-) --Andyrom75 (talk) 11:05, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Probably Grand Est, as there are at least two departments with Moselle in the name, but we don't have articles for them.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:06, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

I think I've done everything (article rename, category rename, disambig creation, link adjustment). I just miss the link con the French Moselle Valley, since the discussion was ongoing. Please insert the more appropriate wikilink. --Andyrom75 (talk) 11:42, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

I've created the "Moselle Valley (France)" redirect to Grand Est and updated the "Moselle Valley" disambig. Now it should be also easier to update the redirect. --Andyrom75 (talk) 13:34, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

I've uploaded a new version of the region map with the necessary changes as well, so that is everything done, I believe :)
-- Wauteurz (talk) 14:23, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Well done, you two.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:03, 26 October 2020 (UTC)