Talk:Driving in Germany

Points overhaul

There has recently been a major overhaul of the whole "points" system, with the general tendency of less points and the limit lowered to nine or ten points before an automatic driving ban. As I don't own a drivers license and don't plan on getting one soon, I don't know much of the details. Do any of you? Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:02, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I have some vague recollection of 12 points being the cut off point in Germany 10 years ago, but probably changed by now.

As an aside, I remember (some usually annoyed) people used to speed on purpose to get their speed camera picture as a memento :) --Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:43, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Yeah unlike most other offenses driving too fast carries a fine divorced from the offender's income, hence making it disproportionately cheap for rich people to not care about speed limits. Most other fines, especially in criminal prosecution are however levied in "Tagessätze" (i.e. based on what you earn in a day). Anyway, back to the issue at hand. German Wikipedia does shed some light on the recent overhaul, even though it is unnecessarily complicated and not all that easy for me to understand. I guess the gist of it is that now the highest number of points you can get for a single offense is 3 points and the limit after which you lose your license is 8 points... But as I said I really don't care all that much for stuff like that, so I may be mistaken... Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:19, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

On the issue of gas prices

This picture has the German gas prices in real and nominal terms from the 1950s till today

While I don't think this image belongs on the main page, it may provide some context on the talk page, so I just put it here. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:15, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Intersections

I heard from my father (who's been on a lot of business trips to Germany lately) that German law for uncontrolled intersections (intersections without a light or stop sign) is different from other countries. Something about how the traffic on the main road has to yield even if there's no stop sign or markings. I can't find a good description of this. Can anyone shed some light on this? Is it something worth explaining in this article? --Bigpeteb (talk) 18:20, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

If there are no signs at an intersection such as a "Give Way" of "Stop" or that you are on the main right of way (a yellow diamond sign) then you have to give way to traffic coming from the right, even if visually you appear to be on the main road. This is generally only a situation in villages and small towns as other roads have clear priority markings. We have to add a section to the article on this, as it is important and different from many other countries. --Traveler100 (talk) 19:48, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Also unmarked T-intersections are treated the same as unmarked regular intersections, so unless there is something present telling you otherwise (e.g. a police officer, traffic light or sign) it's left yields to right (politically incorrect, I know). Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:53, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Habemus Road Toll

Swept in from the pub

So today the news report that after long delays and false starts, the law establishing a road toll for cars has just passed the Bundesrat after it was approved by the Bundestag. Unless something weird happens and the President withholds his signature or the constitutional court stops the law on constitutional grounds it will soon enter into effect. If I read the news correctly, the toll will only become operational in 2019 and it is to be modeled after the Austrian and Swiss system of - basically - a "flat rate", where you pay once for a vignette valid for x amount of time and can use all public highways during that period of time. Rates have obviously not been set yet (and there is an election coming up in September), but it's supposed to be a few Euros at most, depending on the type of car. Now I won't comment on the toll or its implementation, but quite a few of our articles, besides Driving in Germany mention there being no toll, so we'll need to update them sooner or later. Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:12, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

There's a page about it on German Wikipedia: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pkw-Maut_in_Deutschland. It doesn't appear to have been implemented yet. A problem is that EU courts struck it as discriminatory because the toll was only supposed to be charged to foreigners (with the assumption that German drivers paid their responsibility in German taxes). 93.136.220.154 17:42, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

To guide and FTT some day?

I know we already have too many topics related to Germany, but what would need to be done to get this to guide and FTT? Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:54, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Right before left

Right before left is mentioned in connection with amber-flashing traffic lights ("you then have to observe traffic signs or, if absent, the "right before left" rule") and 30 zones ("a "30 Zone" also marks the beginning of an area with right-before-left traffic"), and defined in Traffic rules: "If there are no markings on a crossing regulating otherwise, then the vehicle/cyclist approaching from your right has the right of way ('right before left' rule").

As "right before left" is the default (which I suppose is common across the world, reversed in left-hand traffic jurisdictions), I don't understand why it is mentioned in the 30-Zone context. Are priority roads so common that the rule is seldom used in practice? Are there some contexts where it does not apply?

–LPfi (talk) 08:40, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

@LPfi: @Bigpeteb's comment in #Intersections and following comments by @Traveler100 above seem to indicate that this is something worth mentioning, at least in general. Not sure if it really needs to be mentioned in the 30-Zone context, I was just trying to clarify what was already there. It is already mentioned in the Traffic rules section, so maybe that's enough. El Grafo (talk) 09:22, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I still think it is odd to mention it in the context of 30-zone, but we might want to emphasise the general rule more. In Finland it is the same thing. Is it the same across Europe? Starting a discussion there. –LPfi (talk) 10:40, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Is Driving in Europe#Priority at junctions adequate for driving in Germany? We could link that section from the bullet and forget about it for the 30-zones. –LPfi (talk) 11:32, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, that's adequate, no objections. On a side note, the rule for "Priority to the right does not necessarily apply to cars exiting petrol stations, parking areas, private driveways and similar." mentioned there is simple in Germany: If the parking lot or whatever is connected with a regular road edit: to the road system through a proper road, standard priority rules apply. If there's only a lowered curb that allows you to cross the sidewalk, vehicles entering and exiting have to give way to anyone including pedestrians. El Grafo (talk) 09:32, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Seems reasonable. In the former case, I assume there are give-way signs if the road has more than marginal traffic, so there is no need to know the rule: just assume the road has right of way, and the worst you could cause is ten seconds of confusion for a few cars. This is probably the sensible way to act in most situations when driving abroad. –LPfi (talk) 10:02, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Well, when I write "priority rules apply" that means means the usual priority to the right unless otherwise noted (through signs or traffic lights). So standard procedure as anywhere else, not worth mentioning. But I'm not sure about the second case, where using a lowered curb to enter (or exit!) the road system means you have zero priority over anyone (including pedestrians), and there will be no signs for that. Here (Google Street View) is a typical situation for a fuel station. I suppose that's intuitive, as in virtually all cases you'll be crossing a sidewalk? El Grafo (talk) 13:08, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

What cards are accepted?

I find this paragraph in Driving in Germany#Fuel very confusing:

Virtually all fuel stations are self-service. If the station is staffed, you fuel up first and then pay at the counter. At non-staffed stations, you'll need to pre-pay cash or use a (debit) card and PIN to activate the pump. Many gas stations do not accept €500 or €200 banknotes, for fear of counterfeits. While local debit cards are widely accepted, some rural gas stations will not accept any credit cards (even German ones).

The "(debit)" implies that credit cards are not accepted at all, while the last sentence implies that credit cards are usually accepted. And that local debit cards are usually accepted is little help to most foreigners. So are (foreign) credit cards accepted at most stations? Are foreign (EU/non-EU) debit cards more commonly accepted? Are more or fewer cards accepted at the counter than at the pump?

–LPfi (talk) 07:21, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@LPfi thanks for the feedback, is more clear? Currently can't answer the last question, but I'll try to look out for that in the future. El Grafo (talk) 10:46, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, much better, I don't see any problems with the new wording. I had to look at Germany#Money, but anybody making use of this article should read it anyway. –LPfi (talk) 11:49, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! Would it make sense to link Germany#Money from that section (maybe from "As usual in Germany")? El Grafo (talk) 08:02, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, that would be nice. –LPfi (talk) 08:21, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Done, thanks - I still sometimes get confused about what kind of linking is considered a good idea on different wikis ... El Grafo (talk) 13:37, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. The link or not to link question is tricky. For individual links using common sense is no problem – if they are against best practices it is easy to remove them. In this case I'd say that as the issue isn't always handled in the country article (although it usually should), the link helps point out that the info indeed is available. Users that don't know Wikivoyage may not know where to search for it (and typing in the URL on mobile is a hassle), so the link is a bonus also otherwise. I think there still isn't an established consensus on what to link on Wikivoyage, I have the impression that some editors are adding {{see also}} to many places where the original – equally seasoned – author didn't include them. –LPfi (talk) 06:03, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I feel like there's a lot of unnecessary duplication going on in the European Driving in Country articles that could be avoided by better linking a (and expanding) Driving in Europe. Driving_in_Portugal#Road_signs is a great example for that. People write what they know about a country they either have visited or live in without realizing that their advice may be trivial on a European level (I'm certainly guilty of that). Cross linking more would not only benefit the reader, but also help editors realize when it would be better to not write something ... El Grafo (talk) 08:47, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes. It is hard to avoid when you don't know whether your experience can be applied broader. I now cut down on the Portuguese road signs (I think somebody complained about them earlier, somewhere). If something is stated in the European article, it can mostly be removed from European country articles – but what to add to the European article with a wording implying generality is trickier; Wikipedia helps sometimes. –LPfi (talk) 10:11, 27 July 2023 (UTC)