Talk:Hamburg

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See and Do sections[edit]

Marcus Venzke (Marcus.Venzke@gmx.de, 3rd Oct 2004):

I've just structured the See and Do sections and named many major sights. The idea was to give the sights an order, without describing the sights in detail in the first step. I hope some of you will now pick a sight and describe it in more details (e.g. as a paragraph).

sweden[edit]

erased this:

"being part of German, Danish, Swedish and French empires."


hamburg has never been part of danish or swedish empires. parts of it were danish once. but never swedish. the city of hamburg has only been conquered by the french, no one before and after.

the vikings used to rob the town every now and then. that'S it.

World heritage[edit]

Erased "The whole historic warehouse-district is on the list of the UNESCO World Heritage Site." Hamburg is NOT on the World heritage list

Elbe[edit]

the river has many beautiful places e.g. ParkFiction near the Landungsbruecken StephWiki2012 (talk) 07:39, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Districts?[edit]

What do you all think about splitting Hamburg into districts? The German article is divided into quite many district articles and while we do not need to divide Hamburg in that many districts the division there could be used as a guideline and there is probably also stuff worth translating. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:46, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Anyone? ϒpsilon (talk) 19:21, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
Hi, ϒpsilon! Ze Zhermanz like to split their guides according to all levels of official administrative divisions, which I do not find very helpful. That said, I am starting to consider whether we should split the Altstadt+Neustadt out and, because of the common petrifying fear of "bagel districts", we may want to split the remainder into a few parts, like South, North and Altona. PrinceGloria (talk) 09:15, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Moin!
Well, I thought about something like this:
  1. Central Hamburg: West of Hauptbahnhof, basically Altstadt und Neustadt — everything inside the inner ring. Should we include Hafencity or split it off as a separate article perhaps together with Wilhemsburg and the rest of the harbor mishmash?
  2. St.Pauli, Altona and West: Everything west of the Wall park and south of the horizontal railway stretch to Altona (and south of B431).
  3. Inner north: "Around Alster", ie. what's inside B5, also including St.Georg east of the railway station, perhaps down to Elbe.
  4. Outer north: Everything further north as far as Hamburg stretches.
  5. South: What's south of Norderelbe.
What do you think? ϒpsilon (talk) 14:10, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Let me begin with saying that this entire article, districtification notwithstanding, MERITS A TOTAL REWRITE. It is simply awful, not least in the way that it is still a carbon copy of WT for the most part, but also because it is a meandering, repetitive train of (un)consciousness rambling infollowably through he streets of Hamburg, and then repeating itself oftentimes for good measure. So I hope you will join me in the effort of its sanitization before / at the same time we districtify it.
Now regarding your proposal: I generally agree:
# I would call it Alstand & Neustadt, no need to create a separate name for it. FWIW, I would include main attractions (M4 K&G, Hamburg Museum) right behind the border in this article as well. I would include the Hafencity, at least some of the attractions within walking distance by the same token.
# I would go by simply Altona & St. Pauli - everything that is west of St. Pauli and north of the Elbe is either Altona or Schleswig-Holstein, which we don't cover here
# North of Hamburg - we seem to have a dearth of attractions to form two districts. I'd keep it all together until it proves unwieldy once POIs start pouring in
# South of Hamburg - agreed I guess
I wish we could finish that before I head to HH on Mar 12, when I could stretch my busy schedule to help fill in some remaining gaps in local knowledge. My photoshooting skills are nonexistent, but fortunately there are many GREAT CC-BY-SA-licensed photos on Flickr, so we may look into porting some of those as the image that emerges from the ones we currently have is rather dark and dour. Finally, perhaps we may be lucky to recruit a, pardon the pun, Hamburger to help? Do we know if any of our German friends is from HH? PrinceGloria (talk) 15:21, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Dana and Joachim probably are the ones to contact. We can give them a day or two to lodge complaints otherwise we'll move forward with the above four districts. Meanwhile everything has to be listingfied and coordinates added, so as to know in which district to put them.
The article is really not our golden standard for articles. But turning a messy article into something much better (DotM worthy, even?) is what we're here for! When we start moving things to districts (POIs and district-specific information) they can be cleaned up part by part as they're moved over and then finally the rest of the article that stays. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:04, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
The splitting into four districts (PrinceGloria's proposal) is right, I think. But please do not use "&" in page names. This leads to problems with the dynamic maps. - In Hamburg I was not often, so I can not really help. Maybe I'll be able to add some coordinates. -- Joachim Mey2008 (talk) 18:22, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Trotzdem Vielen Dank! Does Hobbitschuster maybe have any opinion despite not living in that part of Germany? ϒpsilon (talk) 18:30, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, like Joachim, I visited Hamburg only couple of times briefly, so I can't help with my advice on districts. Danapit (talk) 10:11, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Well, I guess neither of us is a local or an expert, but I guess we can use our experiences, however brief, and common sense to agree on a split, and work together to salvage this guide. What do you say, Joachim and Danapit? PrinceGloria (talk) 10:34, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

(start at the left again) Sorry, but the total times I have visited Hamburg amount to maybe 30 hours in total. I am thus not an expert, but I think that districts can be changed later on and a city of the size and (touristic) importance of Hamburg needs to districtified somehow. I think we should proceed analogous to the way Berlin or other German/European cities were districtified. I don't know what good the official administrative subdivisions, that the German WV seems to be so enamored with do, but I doubt any beyond a first ballpark estimate. Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:42, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

I guess Ypsilon's suggestion with PriceGloria's changes (making it 4 districts) makes sense to me. Danapit (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Concerning the districts we have the main direction hammered out, I think. There are still some details left (and POIs which I expect to have done within a few hours).
The extent of South and Altona-St.Pauli are pretty clear. Alt- und Neustadt will include Hafencity but how much to the east and north should it include? St. Georg? How far along the Aussenalster?
To return to the German WV's district division, we should strive to make our districtification compatible in the sense that each of the German districts are entirely located in one of our districts rather than split between several. In this way it is easier and more "comfortable" to translate stuff.
When zooming out to level 11 you notice that the North article will cover the area from 10 o'clock to 4 o'clock, so perhaps its name should be North and East? ϒpsilon (talk) 17:48, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
I would include the HafenCity but nothing beside it. There is precious nothing for the tourist in the east of the HafenCity, so we're pretty much within the big circle of old fortifications if we include it. I was actually wondering if we shouldn't split North from East, as there is quite a bit happening around the Aussenalster, and then further north are the parks, including Stadtpark. Then the districts of Mitte east of the tracks (incl. St. Georg and Hammerbrook) and Wandsbek (as if anything happens there) would be our "East". We could center POIMaps on the parts of those close to the centre - for the few outlying attractions, the users could zoom out. PrinceGloria (talk) 18:11, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Very good. That was also my reasoning when proposing a separate article for "Inner North" in my first comment above — to avoid stuffing the Altstadt-Neustadt article with too much. So, let's go on with those five, then: 1. Altstadt-Neustadt, 2. St.Pauli-Altona, 3. North (Aussenalster to Hagenbeck to Airport), 4. St.Georg and East, 5. South. ϒpsilon (talk) 21:47, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
District map is up! :) ϒpsilon (talk) 20:57, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
That's quite a brilliant map, thank you! I wouldn't be me if I didn't have my comments though:
  1. Do we really want to single out St. Georg among the east? All of the other near-centre districts could be mentioned just as well, e.g. Hammerbrook. Can't be just call it "East"?
  2. I am quite afraid the names and icons of the railway stations need to be larger to be discernible.
  3. I would also consider adding Hamburg-Altona (railway station), the Cruise Harbours and marking the Messegelaende.
  4. You may want to try to place the names on the spaces where there are no roads etc. so that they don't overlap.
Mit freundlichsten Gruessen, PrinceGloria (talk) 22:07, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
We can have St. Georg as part Alt & Neu, perhaps other districts too. Though care must be taken so that Alt & Neustadt doesn't become several times larger than the rest of the districts combined.
Altona railway station might be added, other railway stations I'm not so sure we need. Cruise harbours? Yes! The fair? Maybe.
Will look into the map in the evening. --ϒpsilon (talk) 06:02, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
St. Georg should stay in the East. Just don't mention it in the district name. PrinceGloria (talk) 09:11, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
The map is fixed as far as it's possible, and I'll now plunge forward with creating district articles to where we can eventually start moving listings and probably also the long text passages from the See section. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:49, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

OH THIS PESKY ST. GEORG!!![edit]

Well, I started moving listings and it occurred to me, that one small portion of Aussenalster's lakeshore lands in a different district than the others, namely the one belonging to St. Georg. I am not sure if it's a legitimate problem or whether I am having typically German issues with perceived Oerdentlichkeit. What do you think? PrinceGloria (talk) 11:14, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Being German I just can't resist telling you it is Ordentlichkeit. Ordnung muss sein! best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:33, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Genau! The southeastern bank of Außenalster (north of the railway, of course!) from the unnamed canal between the Alsters up to Mundsburger Kanal should belong to the east (ie. St Georg). From there northward, as hopefully my map reveals, Hamburger Straße/Bramfelder Straße is the border. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:03, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Hello everyone: I find it quite helpful to consider that Altstadt, Neustadt plus HafenCity comprise the Innenstadt (=Inner City). That's not necessarily an official subdivision, but nevertheless those three Stadtteile are often times put together for planning and zoning purposes - hence have visibly a lot in common in terms of density of built environment, usage, etc.. Innenstadt (Inner City) is basically the same as Central Hamburg (or as called "Altstadt-Neustadt"). --109.43.1.2 19:43, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Well as one German put it "Namen sind Schall und Rauch". I don't mind changing the name of the district to "Innenstadt" or inner citiy, but I don't think we would gain all that much by it. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:56, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Thanks for the information, will make a redirect for Innenstadt ASAP. Perhaps we might consider renaming the district (although then lazy me would have to "rip open" the static map again...) ϒpsilon (talk) 19:59, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
I did not see any reference to Innenstadt in Hamburg - but it might have slipped my attention. If we believe it will not be confusing for the tourists (i.e. they will find references to "Innenstadt" and the locals bzw. tourist information will be able to respond appropriately when asked questions e.g. about POIs within Innenstadt), then I think we should go for it. Otherwise, "Hamburg City Centre" is just as good for me. PrinceGloria (talk) 20:39, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Learn[edit]

Do we need this section? It contains pretty much nothing of use for the casual tourist, rather than somebody moving to Hamburg for a longer period. PrinceGloria (talk) 06:50, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't know that it's essential, but it's a very brief overview, so I think it's fine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:58, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
Well, if we open the floodgates (and that's especially important in case of a port like Hamburg!), how do we determine when to close them? As experience from other articles show, people will pour in with details, start making POIs etc, and it will be very hard to tell them which content does not belong. I believe we should only reinstate this section if some opportunities truly useful for travellers arise. And even those are quite on the verge of usefulness, as most short-term learning opportunities belong in "Do" just as well. We do not provide a host of other practical or general information about Hamburg, even in an overview form.PrinceGloria (talk) 19:34, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
Learn (and Work) indeed include information useful only for those staying longer (while they are supposed to be only for short courses and works). I think they could be deleted. Overall, I think those two sections could be optional in all articles below country level. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:59, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
Yup, those, especially work, should stay on the country level at most. Could we agree to delete the one at hand at this time? PrinceGloria (talk) 20:44, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

"Ich bin ein Hamburger"[edit]

How about making this section a textbox? It's the kind of amusing thing people enjoy reading, and if it's a textbox, there will be less temptation to enlarge it. What do you all think? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:08, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I hate textboxes, they totally ruin the layout of the guide on most displays I use. More importantly, it is about us implementing some form of editorial self-control when our literary ambitions are about to take over. More importantly - which sections can we still further improve. Which ones are still CCs from WT? PrinceGloria (talk) 06:25, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
I won't try to insist. I've never been to Hamburg so far, so unfortunately, I'm not likely to be able to help that much. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:21, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
Well I think it is worth a mention somewhere as the term for someone from Hamburg (other than the inexterminable "Hanseat", which used to have a very specific meaning) is indeed Hamburger, but the vast majority of Germans pronounces it vastly different from "Hamburger", the Burger. It's similar to the fact that a "Berliner" is called a "Pfannkuchen" in Berlin, whereas a "Pfannkuchen" is a "Palatschinken". The only stupid joke you can make is that "Frankfurter" and "Wiener" are sausages. Anyway I don't know how that other site handles it, but if "Ich bin ein Hamburger" is their headline, we might consider changing it? And for the record I wouldn't object to a textbox, they are usually easy to spot and therefore either the first thing somebody reads or the last thing (depending among other things on the headline). Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:35, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
Nope, this one is entirely my creation, I was suggesting if it is contentious we remove it rather than discuss it at length, but rather check if OTHER more serious and important sections have improvement potential, ALSO checking if they don't still have too much WT content (which can be both outdated and not aid our search results). PrinceGloria (talk) 16:19, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Guide?[edit]

What is missing for Hamburg to become a guide? If I am not mistaken all of her districts are "usable" at least and this article appears to need little to no polishing up... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:40, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Go ahead and upgrade it. ϒpsilon (talk) 04:55, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Okay. If somebody disagrees, please say so here. Hobbitschuster (talk) 10:07, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Speicherstadt UNESCO world heritage site[edit]

Just an fyi, the Speicherstadt has been declared a UNESCO world heritage site. I don't know what the established protocol is, whether we should mention it here and in the corresponding district or only in one of the two... Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 10:04, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Nice! I'm following the world heritage conference too.
Speicherstadt's UNESCO status can be mentioned in the Hamburg article. Though in the "closest" article, ie. the Hamburg/Neustadt-Altstadt the status should be mentioned, preferably in Speicherstadt's listing, the site should have a photo and the UNESCO icon parameter should be added to the banner. Also, the site should be added to our UNESCO World Heritage List using its official name. ϒpsilon (talk) 10:39, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
I made two small changes to the district article to that effect. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:13, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Routebox[edit]

See here for which ICE lines pass through Hamburg. We should make some effort to get at least the most important HSR lines in Germany into routeboxes on the corresponding articles... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:59, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Cuisine[edit]

Paragraphs 1 and 4 in section "Cuisine" describe a traditional cuisine that a visitor will usually not come across. While this traditional cuisine has its place in the Wikipdia article about the Hamburg cuisine, my impression is that the Wikivoyage article rather needs a description of the current culinary situation. I will rewrite the section in small steps; feel free to stop me if I'm going in a wrong direction. Kind regards, Grueslayer (talk) 13:21, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

If visitors in practice are unable to find them, then I agree they can be removed. However, many travelers do want to try local dishes, and if you only need to go a little out of your way to find them, they should definitely be kept. ϒpsilon (talk) 14:00, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
How is the situation with traditional Hamburg cuisine? I've heard that in Frankfurt "traditional cuisine" only originated after countless visitors to the trade fairs and emperor crownings and whatnot wanted to experience "real traditional Frankfurt cuisine" and ultimately local restaurants went to neighboring villages and copied what was done there. Has Hamburg had a similar dynamic with its "local cuisine"? Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:08, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
As a large city Hamburg has a high share of ethnic restaurants, as a large port city even more so. In the low budget segment, fast food stalls with classic German fast food (Currywurst etc.) are still easy to find, but way more scarce than e.g. kebap shops. In terms of restaurants, venues that sell traditional German cuisine are hard to find, let alone traditional Hamburg cuisine. An exception is the harbour area (Landungsbrücken, fish market) where touristic demand for traditional Hamburg specialties meets a matching offer.
Hamburg.de/Hamburg.com, a comprehensive website supported by the city administration, lists five traditional restaurants on its English site; the German site lists ten. There's more of course, mainly in the outskirts. A good statistical overview is provided by Gelbe-Seiten.de, the German yellow pages. This site lists 344 restaurants in the section "Italian restaurants", compared to 192 for German cuisine. For Hanseatic cuisine it lists 20.
Kind regards, Grueslayer (talk) 18:40, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Black metro lines[edit]

While are all the metro lines black? Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:05, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Wikidata items for dynamic map[edit]

Below is the map with all Wikidata items for the districts of Hamburg. This should simplify the work in case we want to change the district set-up in the future. The tool Wikidata Extractor has been used to create the mapshapes. --Renek78 (talk) 09:00, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Districts of Hamburg