Talk:Ice hockey in North America

Detailed game description in "Understand"

Are we sure we want that? I deleted a similar explanation in the American Football, on the basis that detailed descriptions of rules and game play are more appropriate for a website dedicated to the game, or possibly an encyclopedia like Wikipedia, and that beyond brief descriptions, say, of the differences between North American and European hockey, we should assume that people have a basic understanding of the sport if they're looking for a travel topic about it.

Another possibility is to have descriptions of the various sports in the Sport article, which has links to the various more specialized articles about sports around the world. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:44, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

On the contrary, I think it's best to assume the reader is unfamiliar with the sport. I used similar reasoning when I wrote the Understand section for Baseball in the United States. The information provided is sufficient to get a feel for what's going on on the ice without delving into the exhaustive detail of an encyclopedia article. Powers ^(talk) 13:28, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

If that's the way we're approaching things, the detailed description of football in American Football should be reinstated. How detailed do we really want to be? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:51, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

To me, the traveler comes first. Assuming the traveler is unfamiliar with the game, I think they need a basic introduction to the specialized terms and basic rules. Powers ^(talk) 00:38, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

You may be right. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:46, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I tend to err on the side of assuming knowledge of rules. However if we have a rules or gameplay section readers who already know all about it may just skip over it. We should certainly aim for briefness above all. If you watch an American Football match and know nothing besides the fact that the ball has to be moved towards the other guys' endzone and it is basically a bunch of ten year olds telling another bunch of ten year olds "you can't pass" and the other bunch says "yes we can" that is probably enough to enjoy the game. However there are sports (such as Cricket) where we must assume that people who don't live or grew up in countries where it is popular will perceive it to be totally alien and intellectually impenetrable even or maybe especially after reading the WP article on its rules. On a related note maybe we should move the spectator sports out of the article on Sports as for why: look at that article's very first line. Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:54, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I think the summary strikes a pretty good balance in providing just enough information without getting too long. There's way more detail that could be gotten in to (e.g., offsides, icing, why the goalie is pulled, penalty shots, the penalties themselves, just to name a few) but it's probably best to leave that to WP or the guy next to you at the game. -Shaundd (talk) 05:09, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Based on this discussion, I also restored the description of rules and game play at American Football. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:19, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Origins of junior hockey

There are a couple of things in the first two paragraphs of "Junior ice hockey" that don't ring true to me. My experience is only anecdotal though, so before I charge in and change it, I thought I'd check to see if there was a source or the rationale for the comments:

• "Unlike football, basketball, and baseball, North American high schools have been slow to embrace ice hockey" - Do you mean "American high schools" have been slow to embrace hockey? Where I grew up in Ontario every high school had a hockey team and it seemed like it was the same across the province (and probably most of Canada). If anything, it was baseball and football that weren't fully embraced at the high school level.
• "To fill that void, an extensive system of junior hockey has been developed, particularly in Canada" - I don't know the origins of junior hockey as a whole, but I do know my hometown junior team (and other teams of that era) were originally affiliated with Original Six teams and used to develop players for the NHL parent. Reading through Wikipedia's Ontario Hockey League history, I also don't get the impression junior hockey (at least the OHL) was created because there wasn't enough high school hockey.

Like I said, a couple of things don't seem right but it's also based on my experience in a hockey-mad small town so my perspective is a bit coloured by that. If there's evidence supporting what's currently written, I'll hold off making edits. -Shaundd (talk) 05:09, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

To my knowledge, hockey is also a pretty common sport in schools in the US Midwest, especially but not only Minnesota, and areas of the Northeast north of the "snow line," including Western New York and at least parts of New England. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:17, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure why I wrote "North American"; clearly Canada is different. In the U.S., even in Western New York, high school hockey is still limited to areas with sufficient ice nearby (Minnesota is a story unto itself). And there's also prep school hockey, common in New England. I have no clue on the origins of junior hockey so I was extrapolating to large extent; revise it as you see fit. My intent was to communicate that youth hockey (including juniors) has taken some of the pressure off of high school athletic programs when it comes to developing players with professional potential. Powers ^(talk) 19:03, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I revised the first couple of paragraphs for junior hockey. I took out the reference to high school -- I hear what you're saying about youth hockey and junior hockey being the main developmental path for aspiring professional players, but I think it's not relevant to the average traveller thinking of attending a game.

I added some really basic info on the experience of going to a major junior game vs NHL. I'm not sure if that's the right spot, but I feel an article discussing a sport should explain some of the experience of attending a game. -Shaundd (talk) 05:46, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Before the NHL expansion from 6 to 12 teams in 1967, there was only one American player in the league & I don't think any Europeans. Nearly all players were Canadian. I think amateur & school hockey in the US has expanded hugely since then. Pashley (talk) 17:30, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Links

As you may have noticed, I created a bunch of redirect pages to easier link to this page and for it to be easier found. I think it may help this article and WV overall, if we link to this very article (via redirects if necessary) from all the articles that have a North American Ice Hockey team worth mentioning. Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:20, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Puck shape

Is a standard hockey puck not cylindrical? Why would saying it's cylindrical imply that it's longer than it is around? Powers ^(talk) 20:57, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Because non-mathematicians think a cylinder is longer than it is round. Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:46, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

The easy solution is to say it's a cylinder that's wider in diameter than it is long. I don't think that's too technical for anyone who remembers the very most basic concepts of 10th-grade geometry. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:49, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Title?

"Ice hockey in North America" seems weird given that, as far as I know, no-one in North America ever uses the term "ice hockey"; it is just "hockey".

Changing the article name and/or adding a disambig page for "hockey" are possible solutions. For now, I'll just add an infobox. Pashley (talk) 17:43, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Why do we have to follow local conventions of ambiguous dumbed down names for sports? Lots of English speakers will think of a different sport when they hear "hockey" unqualified. I think that if we ever write an article on the type of hockey Brits call "Hockey" we should call it "Field Hockey in x", not "Hockey in x". Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:18, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

It is not just sports, though "football" is another example; the unmarked form gets used for whatever is common in the context. Mail vs email or electronic mail vs postal mail or "snail mail" is another example & it is not just dialect, but also context; e.g. if I said here I was going to send you mail, I'd mean electronic mail but if I said I was going to mail you a hockey puck I'd mean snail mail. Pashley (talk) 19:07, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Well we have an article on postal service, not on mail in part for that reason. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:58, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Rename to Ice hockey in Canada and the United States?

North America by definition stretches from Little Diomede down to the Darien Gap. We should avoid using North America synonymous with Canada and the United States – and this article is only about ice hockey in Canada and the US. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:39, 11 March 2022 (UTC)