Talk:Jazz

Expansion

Some famous jazz festivals we don't cover yet:

Montreux Jazz Festival

Nice Jazz Festival

Perugia Jazz Festival

Cities that don't yet have a listing but should include:

Chicago

Boston (including Berklee School of Music)

Washington, D.C.

Also, South Africa has its own style of jazz that should be covered. Which cities in South Africa have the most active jazz scenes? Cape Town? Johannesburg, too? Any others? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:08, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for this information, and yes, South Africa has a quite unique subgenre of jazz that is closely related to soul jazz. I'll get to work on the cities very shortly and I'll probably get to the jazz festivals fairly soon. My long-term goal would be to see this as a Featured Travel Topic, but it's still got a little way to go yet. Selfie City (talk) 03:12, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Sure, but this article was only recently started. Good work! Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:46, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I've now added all of those jazz festivals, along with the Montreal Jazz Festival, which definitely needed to be in the article. I've also added Chicago to the list of destinations, but not yet Boston or the District of Columbia. I'll probably get to work on Boston soon, but I do not know anything about the District of Columbia's jazz scene, so I'll have to research a little before contributing to that one. Selfie City (talk) 20:34, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I've done Boston now, too. Selfie City (talk) 20:39, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't know the club scene in D.C., either, but I do know that it's a city with an important jazz history. For example, Duke Ellington was from there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:26, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘Washington D.C. is now listed as a destination. Selfie City (talk) 22:51, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Chords

I really don't think someone who doesn't know what a chord is will understand the difference between a chord and a melody or riff if we use the phrase "a specified group of notes". I also really don't think we should include a list of chords used in jazz, both because it's too technical and because it couldn't possibly be complete. I mean do we really want to explain what an AbSus7#9 is? Nope. Let's please remove all this stuff and assume that whoever doesn't know what a chord is will either ignore the word or look it up somewhere that gives a better explanation than we would want to devote time, space and audio clips to. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:36, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

The information about chords has been removed. Selfie City (talk) 22:50, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Events

I created a section that I think was called "Jazz Concerts". Should we add re-occurring listings to this or not? The problem is that there are so many jazz concerts in the world that this could never be complete, like Salsa dancing. Selfie City (talk) 02:38, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

I would suggest that we list only the most important jazz festivals and clubs, while mentioning that there are numerous less famous festivals and clubs. We could also list the most famous jazz programs in conservatories and universities, either in a "learn" section or in order to mention them as performance venues. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:55, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

I think that's a good idea, and that we could include Birdland and other important venues. A list of every reoccurring jazz concert in the world would be almost never-ending. I'll probably get to work on a "clubs" section in the near future. Selfie City (talk) 14:15, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Where should the list of important clubs go, though? It can't really go under the events section because the clubs themselves are not events. If we did create a new section, where would it go and what color would the markers be? Selfie City (talk) 14:46, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

I have no idea on the colors, but I'd create a separate section and list them by country and then city. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:00, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Information about the music being banned in Germany

Hobbitschuster, thanks for your contribution about jazz being banned in Germany in World War II, although the fact that the Nazis were opposed to jazz just because it was African-American music is unfortunate. I think the same thing took place with Stalin in the USSR, but for different reasons. This would be a useful input to the article, because people often forget that Stalin was no better than Hitler - although both were evil. Selfie City (talk) 01:09, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

I've added the information. Selfie City (talk) 01:34, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Latin jazz

Wait, we're crediting Charlie Parker with inventing Latin jazz? Au contraire! Here are some basic online sources to consult: Encylopedia Brittanica "Latin Jazz" (more complete), A Brief History of Latin Jazz (briefer, less complete), and this looks like a good site to poke around in. There's a lot there, and I don't know how we'll want to summarize it. Sure, "Charlie Parker South of the Border" is significant, but in no way did his efforts begin the development of Latin jazz. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:18, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

It says that? I will change, that is probably a bit of a stretch. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 00:20, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

It also didn't start in the 60s. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:27, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

When do you think we should say it started? The tough thing is to identify when jazz musicians started to play latin music, resulting in “latin jazz”. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 00:32, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

It's best to fudge a little. I wrote "especially from the 40s onwards". Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:53, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Last paragraph of "History"

Let's talk about this:

There were, however, downsides to these changes: first, the African-American population, which had previously dominated the jazz scene, largely left it because they did not see jazz as an academic subject, but instead saw it as enjoyment and expression of emotions. This meant that many people who had been important figures in jazz found themselves playing the popular music of the 1970s. Second, the white population that took over jazz continued to pull it in the direction of classical music, but jazz and classical music did not blend well and jazz began to lose its audience during this time. Another factor that caused jazz to lose much of its audience was the changes in popular music which had since the late 1950s been changing from jazz-like music to what it is today.

What I think mainly happened in the 70s, and this is in large part from discussions with jazz musicians who were active then, is that the popularity of rock (starting really with rock 'n' roll in the 50s but gathering steam in the 60s and nearly killing jazz in the 70s) and the growth of jazz-rock fusion nearly did it in. I don't think it's true that jazz and classical music don't blend well: Ask Gershwin, Ravel, Milhaud and Bernstein about that - not to mention, in a very different way, Cecil Taylor. I think there are disadvantages to academic jazz, but from where I sit, they mainly have to do with a risk of uniformity.

I think that for the purposes of this article, though, we could summarize things by stating some version of what I mentioned about rock overwhelming jazz on the charts, with the last non-fusion jazz tune to beat out a rock song for #1 being Armstrong's rendition of "Hello Dolly" in 1964 beating out the Beatles (I think of Santana's "Game of Love" with Michelle Branch, a #5 hit in 2002, as jazz, and probably the most recent top-10 jazz hit, but it's more fusiony). Jazz recovered from its encounter with fusion (and don't misinterpret me as being negative about fusion: I don't much like Miles Davis' version of fusion, but I love a lot of what Mahavishnu Orchestra, Alan Holdsworth and Chick Corea did) but is a niche genre now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:52, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

So what do you think we ought to do with it? --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 19:42, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

I covered that a little in my last paragraph above, but I think we should include jazz-rock fusion as a style we cover in this article and talk about how 1950s rock 'n' roll and 1960s-70s rock eclipsed jazz, with that plus fusion almost killing it, but leaving it a living niche genre that is now taught much more in universities and conservatories than during its heyday. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:04, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

That shows some similarities to the original paragraph I wrote, and I think adding information about fusion, etc., and how these genres affected jazz would actually reinforce the current content. So let's add that information. I'll get to work on it shortly. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 23:57, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Great. I'll be happy to contribute. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:47, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

I've added some information. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 00:47, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes, thank you. But you didn't subtract anything that I suggested was inaccurate. I'll work on this section now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:51, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

New edits. And some explanation here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:28, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘Thanks. I think it still should be mentioned, however, that universities for jazz did not completely change the music for the better. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 22:54, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

I did mention a problem, actually 2: sameness and the perpetuation of mistakes in the Real Book. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:07, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I'd agree, but we also have to consider where the sameness came from. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 04:19, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

A uniformity in curriculum and educational materials. Is there anything else that's caused it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:53, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

I think that’s right. I’m not sure if it’s in the current text, so I’ll take a look. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 13:40, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Oh, I see now. Looks good to me. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 13:41, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Recorded excerpt

For a second, I thought I had just edited a Wikipedia article. Unfortunately, sound files can't be linked here, per image policy. Shall we move it to the talk page, delete it, or does anyone have another idea? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:25, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Hmmm...It looks like the wording of Wikivoyage:Image policy#Other media was changed at some point. It looks like it was this edit, which was done without any discussion. So the policy has not changed, and I will revert that edit on the policy page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:27, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

I added it because I didn’t know it was not allowed and it seemed to help the article. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 01:52, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to changing the policy so as to allow sound files on Wikivoyage, but it's against policy, as it stands. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:22, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

I agree with LPfi's change in text, just that a discussion beforehand should be done. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 15:54, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Singing

Songs are fundamental to jazz, so we really need to discuss jazz singers and singing.

My feeling is that the most important jazz singers in history are probably Billie Holiday, Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald and Sarah Vaughan, but of course there are others. Billie Holliday is important for her great phrasing, expression and diction, and was a huge influence on Frank Sinatra, among others. She was also historically important for having the courage to sing "Strange Fruit". Louis Armstrong is often considered to have invented scatting, though it could well be that he was just the first to record it. Ella Fitzgerald was probably the most virtuosic of all jazz singers and the most brilliant scatter. Sarah Vaughan had a lovely, deep voice and was the favorite of the beboppers. I think we could also mention Cab Calloway, but not just as a singer but as a bandleader and songwriter. I'm not sure how we should handle Frank Sinatra or Nat King Cole as a singer, as they were felt to straddle the line between jazz and pop in their days, but I think we should cover them and just say that (and Cole was a great jazz pianist, too). Nina Simone should also be mentioned as historically important and influential. And more recently, we still have Tony Bennett, who is universally considered a jazz singer and was a protege of Sinatra. We could also mention Amy Winehouse.

I suppose it's best to have separate section about singers. I would also suggest mentioning vocalese. I don't know offhand who's best-known for vocalese, but it's a good thing for listeners to be aware of.

Another thought: Starting in 40s, there was a style of jazz related to boogie woogie called w:Jump blues, and when I think of that style, I think first of the great entertainer and band leader, Louis Jordan. It's certainly jazzy music, but does it belong more here or more in an article about the blues? I'm not sure. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:55, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I didn't write much about singers. There are definitely some names, like Ella Fitzgerald, that are worth including. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 22:17, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Universities/conservatories

The New School in New York should definitely be mentioned. I'd probably mention Purchase, too, but New School is obvious. m:University of North Texas College of Music is also obvious:

Since the 1970s, approximately one-third of all North Texas music students have been enrolled at the graduate level. North Texas was first in the world to offer a degree in jazz studies. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:20, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Sure. I'll add it when I have the chance. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:13, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Age of the blues

I always read and taught that the blues arose around the early 20th century, around the same time as jazz, but w:Boogie-woogie gives me very strong second thoughts, because boogie-woogie is the blues, just in a sped-up and initially solo piano version. So since scholars believe boogie-woogie dates back to the 1870s, the blues really does seem to be a post-Civil War style, not just an early 20th-century or even late 19th-century style, as stated in w:Blues. I will edit accordingly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:15, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

No "See" section?

Live music venues are well and good, but surely not the only options for travellers interested in jazz. For starters, there's an American Jazz Museum mentioned in the blurb for Kansas City in the "Destinations" section, but it has no listing of its own. In my own hometown, the Colored Musicians Club Museum preserves artifacts on the history of the local jazz scene. I'm sure there are many more museums like those, as well as many points of interest that are neither museums nor venues. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:50, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

There's a statue of Duke Ellington at his piano at 110th and 5th in Manhattan. I will insert a listing later if no-one beats me to it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:27, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

I often hear or read about the "St John Coltrane church" in San Francisco. It should be mentioned, I think. Ibaman (talk) 18:35, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Move to Jazz music?

I'm not endorsing a page move, but the word "jazz" is often misused and it may be wise to move this page to Jazz music. Any ideas or opinions? I'd prefer to keep the page here, but I'm wondering if others feel differently about this. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 04:05, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Unnecessary and not an idiomatic expression. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:14, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Not a Guide

As I commented on this article's Featured Travel Topic nomination:

There are way too few listings in at least several sections - too few clubs and none outside the U.S., too few festivals, way too few "See" listings, listing only Berklee among universities/conservatories is a joke for an article that's supposed to be reasonably close to complete, "Buy" is not travel-related (I don't see the point in spending much space mentioning CDs, fakebooks and Play-a-long CDs that can be bought online, though listing actual record stores that can be visited is relevant). Japan is particularly under-covered. I don't mean to get anyone down; a lot of good work has been done on this article, and I've participated in some of it, but this is all preliminary work, with the probable exception of the history section, which could be copy-edited but otherwise is OK to leave about as is.

I will downgrade the article to Usable now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:10, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Quote

I just want to say, what a great quote! Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:29, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! I did a bit of searching to try to find one that suits the ideology of jazz but also by some-one well known even beyond jazz. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:23, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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• Los Angeles with Mount Baldy.jpg

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The image is used on the Los Angeles wikidata entry, and is displayed when the LA icon is clicked on the map, so the use here is not important. AlasdairW (talk) 23:55, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item is missing permission

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• Montreux Jazz affichage lumineux.jpg

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• On this page as well as Montreux. What do you all want to do? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:57, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

  I think that it should be replaced here, as I don't see the festival logo as adding value to this article - a photo of a jazz bar or concert would be better. If the logo is of use to visitors to identify venues in Montreux, there is a good argument for having a local copy for use in that article. AlasdairW (talk) 22:49, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Do you support uploading it locally for the Montreux article? I'd rather have a photo of someone performing at the Montreux Jazz Festival there, too, if possible. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:25, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

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Presumably used for a Wikidata item only. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 02:56, 31 March 2023 (UTC)