Talk:Odesa

Information we'd love to see:

• How long does it take/how much does it cost to travel to Kiev and/or Moldovia?
• What about language courses in Kiev?

http://www.ruslanguage.odessa.ua/

http://www.russian-in-russia.com/english/kiev/kiev.htm --unsigned message by 70.49.6.198

• Does anyone have information on the climate?

http://www.2odessa.com/wiki/index.php?title=Water_/Electricity/Climate (WT-en) 2odessa 04:09, 9 May 2006 (EDT)

• What about ferries leaving to/from Odessa? (I wanna go to Constanza, RO)--unsigned message by Timoluege

http://www.2odessa.com/wiki/index.php?title=Boat_Tour

A lot of other information can be found here: http://www.2odessa.com/ Hope this helps (WT-en) 2odessa 04:09, 9 May 2006 (EDT)

Get in

The following needs to be sorted out. If you know, just go ahead and edit the text without using the first person. See our manual of style for more on the tone we like to use:

It is possible to catch an overnight train in the city of Uzgorod (just across the Slovak border) to Odessa. The train leaves sometime around 4:30PM but be aware that when crossing into the Ukraine from Slovakia time changes so you'll need to add one hour to your watch. You will arrive around 10:00AM the next morning in Odessa.

I think the above comment must be about train number 107Ш (107sh), but the Ukrainian Rail website (Russian/Ukrainian only) http://www.uz.gov.ua shows this arriving at 12.10 noon.

Wikivoyage:Naming conventions

This article was briefly and unilaterally moved to Odesa, a spelling I'd never seen before. I moved it back per Wikivoyage:Naming conventions, as the spelling with 2 Ss is quite obviously the one that's most often used in English. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:18, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

While page moves should usually be discussed before they are done, during the recent war coverage, I have only seen the Ukrainian spelling Odesa, and not the Russian spelling Odessa. Ground Zero (talk) 10:54, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

I've seen both, but you're right that U.S. and other media have been using the Ukrainian spelling a lot, I'd say 90% of the time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:58, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Policy is to use the commonest English name & since I'd never seen the single-s spelling before noticing it here, I think that is the double-s version. A google fight gives 169 million hits for Odessa, only 11.6 million for Odesa.

On the other hand, WP uses Odesa & perhaps we should be politically correct as well.

I'd say the deciding factor should be which spelling will be read by an English speaker who does not know the city with a pronunciation closest to Ukranian, Odd-ess-a vs Odd-ees-a. Pashley (talk) 04:45, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

I think Odesa has been routinely used by U.S. media since the start of the broader Russian invasion last February. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:02, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

• Russian drones smash power network in Ukraine’s Odesa --Globe and Mail (Canada)
• Much of Odesa in the dark as Russian attacks batter Ukraine's power grid -- Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
• Ukraine war: Odesa port reopens after energy network hit -- British Broadcasting Corporation
• Sipping cappuccino between air raids in unfazed Odesa -- The Times of London
• Opinion: Odesa used to be known for two things – the port and raucous hedonism -- CNN (USA)
• UN chief visits Ukraine's Odesa port — USA Today
• Russia drones smash power network in Odesa, leaving 1.5 million without electricity -- The Age (Australia)
• Russian drone attacks leave Odesa region without power -- Australian Broadcasting Corporation

The switch from Odessa to Odesa happened on most of these sites in June-July 2022. A simple Google search does not show the change in usage in 2022. Ground Zero (talk) 13:32, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm a bit late, but FWIW I've always spelled Odesa with one s, but that's because I've always favoured Ukrainian spellings of cities, even though they may not be in common use. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 21:15, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

I understand the wish to show solidarity, but I am uneasy with changing place names (or their spelling) as political statements. I am surprised that Wikipedia has done that, and I am not sure we should follow their lead in this. For Odes(s)a, there is little risk of confusion, but in other cases Wikivoyage:The traveller comes first means that both forms should be told. I added a note on the names to Ukraine#Talk. –LPfi (talk) 07:56, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Chernobyl hasn't been changed because that spelling is known in the English-speaking world. If this name change were purely for political reasons, I would oppose it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:00, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

@LPfi: I don't just do this for Ukraine, but I do this for many other place names too (I always use Türkiye, Côte d'Ivoire, Cabo Verde or Timor-Leste, not Turkey, Ivory Coast, Cape Verde or East Timor). However, when it comes to articlespace, I'm all for following policy. That was just my 2 cents and how I personally write names, but I will always use the most common name in articlespace. None of this has anything to do with politics. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 10:15, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Aren't Odessa and Kiev well-known in the English-speaking world? And what non-politic reason is there for the change? There is a tendency to abandon externally given names in favour for the local ones, such as Inuit and Sámi, but that is also politics, and I didn't see "Odesa" or "Kyiv" before the war, so it isn't about this general trend.

(I have lately been trying to use Sámi names instead of the Finnish ones when writing about Sápmi in Swedish or English, for places unknown to most non-locals. I'd call that decision political. Making it easy to write Sámi names with the Finnish keyboard standard of 2008 was also a political decision. However, I don't see any need to call Germany "Deutchland" or Venice "Venexia" – and I really dislike Swedes calling Helsinki or Turku by their Finnish names when talking Swedish).

–LPfi (talk) 10:39, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

There may be a political reason why English-language media have changed their spellings of Ukrainian place names, but if so, the political reasons are theirs, not ours. If Odesa and Kyiv are now used more often in English-language writing, we change the names of the articles for that reason. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:51, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

OK, misunderstood. Still, is the point of reference what is written now or existing sources, including older ones? Most travel literature about Odessa is probably written pre-2022. Or should we simply trust Wikipedia, without checking their criteria? –LPfi (talk) 11:27, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

(For the Sámi names, I have noted the tendency at Metsähallitus, and assume using Sámi names in Sámi areas is following their lead, but I am not going to check usage name for name). –LPfi (talk) 11:30, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

The point of reference is current usage in English, whenever there's a consensus that it's been established. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:43, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

The policy says: "articles should use the city, region or country name most commonly used in English-speaking countries." It does not specify the time frame. "Most commonly used" does not tell us that we should include or exclude older sources. In a case like this where a change has been adopted widely and suddenly, including older sources means that Wikivoyage would lag behind common use and look out of date compared to media sources. I don't think we want to look out of date. Using "Kiev" in particular would make Wikivoyage look both out of date and culturally insensitive. Ground Zero (talk) 12:26, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Odessa is the name I have seen more often, but right now it's true that mainstream Western media is using the Ukrainian version of the names to show solidarity with the Ukrainian government, but if you look at alternative media, pro-Russian media still uses the Russian name. Another example is Bakhmut, which is the Ukrainian name used by mainstream Western media, while pro-Russia alternative media uses "Artyomovsk" (but in that case, Bakhmut is indeed the most common name used in English). In the case of Kyiv/Kiev, I have noticed that Western media use "Kyiv" to show solidarity with the Ukrainian government, but many Americans still use "Kiev" colloquially even if they may been on Ukraine's side in the conflict. The dog2 (talk) 18:16, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

• yeah, I've been using "Odessa" all my life, and find this polemic sooo lame. After all, it's pronounced Oh-DES-sah, not Oh-DEE-sah, not Oh-dee-SAW. Ibaman (talk) 18:44, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

People also used "Peking" all their lives, until they didn't. Ditto Swaziland. Things change. And unlike those, this is a minor spelling change. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:21, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

yeah, it's not a "Constantinople >> Istanbul" situation. Which makes it look even lamer. Oh well, don't let's fight over this trifle. Ibaman (talk) 19:42, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I also added a note to the "Talk" section of the Ukraine article about this. Even if the Russian name is still more commonly used in English than the Ukrainian one, you certainly do not want people to misinterpret you as showing support for the Russian invasion unless that is your intention (since RT and most pro-Russia political commentators use the Russian names), so you should most certainly make an effort to learn and use the Ukrainian names whenever you speak to Ukrainians. The dog2 (talk) 20:47, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

• dude, you sometimes get TOO political. You definitely have a valid point here, but the overeagerness with which you push the political themes, all the time, gets kind of tiresome, eventually. I have no love for NATO and aggressive pro-NATO POV pushing, that's true. But this is a travel guide that should be POV-free. Ibaman (talk) 20:54, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm not directing this at anybody in the thread. I'm just stating things as it is. I'm no fan of NATO either, but as a travel guide, we should assume whoever is reading this is just a casual traveller who wants to avoid offending the locals in whatever place they visit. For instance, if you talk to Filipinos, the name "South China Sea" is very offensive to them, and Filipinos will call it the "West Philippine Sea". So we should most certainly inform people that they should use the name "West Philippine Sea" instead when they talk to Filipinos. And likewise, whenever I travel to Taiwan, I am always careful to avoid insinuating whether Taiwan is a country or part of China until I have had enough time to determine the other person's political position, and then I will adjust accordingly, but on the other hand, whenever I travel to mainland China, I am very careful not to imply that Taiwan is a country. The dog2 (talk) 21:34, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

@The dog2: were you active here already, to witness the edit wars over the name of Transnistria? This situation is Transnistria all over again. Not very pleasant, you know. By the way, here about the sea you have a solid point, but your latest edits on Ukraine seem to me a little too obvious for readers of a travel guide like ours, IMHO. I mean, if one of us HAD to travel there RIGHT NOW, they surely would engage in tremendous pre-trip planning, and the reading of many official and non-official sources, which would include the hows and whys about not calling Bakhmut Artyomovsk, and Lviv and Mykolaiv and so on. To include this in Wikivoyage with such emphasis sounds really excessive. But this is just MHO. Let's keep on improving our content. Wikivoyage is the best. Best wishes, Ibaman (talk) 21:51, 23 January 2023 (UTC)