Talk:Pizza in the United States and Canada

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Should chains be mentioned?[edit]

I know, as always, that chains are not the places where the best pizzas are to be had, but maybe we should list them here, still? Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:46, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

I think that would help the traveler. Not all of them are going to read the fast food in North America article. Alternately, a discussion of some of the different types of pizza places may be useful in addition to cuisines: sit-down, mom-and-pop, delivery-only, entertainment venues (a la Chuck E. Cheese) etc. This will tacitly introduce some of the chains as well. —Justin (koavf)TCM 21:48, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Hobbitschuster and Justin, the entire point of creating this article was to reduce some of the clutter in Fast food in the United States and Canada. So the answer to your question is absolutely yes, and we should import said listings directly from that article. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:38, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Please do go ahead. Hobbitschuster (talk) 02:55, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Pizza as fast food[edit]

Pizza can be slow food, and in typical pizzerias, although you can get your slice fast if they have one handy, you often have to wait for the pizza to be made or at least for your slice to be reheated, so it's not really classic fast food, in my opinion. I guess that should be explained somewhere in "Understand", but where would be the best place to put it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:51, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

  • @Ikan Kekek: I guess we're talking over each other as I started a section on relative classiness in the article. —Justin (koavf)TCM 21:53, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Cool. I'll have a look. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:55, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Ideas[edit]

I'm the one who suggested this article, but unfortunately I'm currently too bogged down in other work both on- and offwiki to contribute much to it at this time. In the meantime, here are some ideas of directions in which we can take this article:

  • For listings of chains, we should consider breaking them down not by national vs. regional but rather by type of service: takeout and delivery only (Domino's, Little Caesar's, et al.), "classic" fast-food (Sbarro), fast-casual (Blaze Pizza, Pieology), full-fledged sit-down restaurant (Pizza Hut, Pizza Delight).
  • The explosive proliferation of "artisanal pizza" in the United States, made with fresh premium ingredients, often in brick, wood-fired, or coal-fired ovens. I see this mentioned briefly as a category of New York style pizza - that's not accurate; this is a nationwide phenomenon.
  • Let's spin off the discussion of typical toppings to its own section. Also, are there any "regional toppings" common in one area but not others?
  • Ethnic-fusion takes on pizza - "Mexican pizzas" topped with nacho cheese, taco meat, etc., "Greek pizza" common in New England
  • Individual pizzerias as tourist destinations (Lombardi's in NYC's Little Italy, off the top of my head), or pizza-related attractions.

I'm glad to see this article developing so rapidly, and I hope to carve out some time in the near future to help with its development along the above lines.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:34, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Chicken wings in pizzerias are definitely a Western New York thing and not a New York City thing. Whether they extend to Ohio and the Pittsburgh area, I wouldn't know.
Brick-oven wood-fired pizza is the original Neapolitan style, though of course it can be made with non-traditional toppings, etc. Coal-fired pizza has a very long history in New York, going back over 100 years. Are you sure it didn't spread from New York to places like Phoenix?
If you're going to talk about "Mexican pizza", I think we would need to touch on authentic Middle Eastern "pitza", which can be found in the U.S., too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:40, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek: They have wings at Indianapolis-area pizzerias, let me assure you. Also, "Wing Street" is a sub-brand of Pizza Hut--not sure how regional it is, tho. —Justin (koavf)TCM 20:46, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
So maybe pizza and wings is a kind of Western New York + Midwest thing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:17, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek: Maybe but this is available on the West Coast. I'm simply ignorant about the industry at large but I'd bet that wings are the second biggest side after bread sticks/garlic knots/etc. Maybe sandwiches but I think wings are pretty typical. —Justin (koavf)TCM 22:21, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Restaurant listings?[edit]

I really think not, because they could end up in the thousands, and otherwise, how would we curate them? Mentioning a few notable ones in the listings for regional styles is OK, but otherwise, I am really leery of this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:02, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

I agree, but on a more general point, what do you think of the possibility to add a button where registered editors can give their recommendation for a certain listing? And it only shows up when you click "show recommendations" and there it says "Ikan Kekek and x y and z recommend this restaurant"? Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:43, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
Probably something to discuss at Wikivoyage talk:Listings. But I would be OK with such a feature only if it's possible for the recommender to pull their recommendation at any time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:57, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

[Unindent] Does anyone want to defend having individual restaurant listings in this article, or should we delete the "City recommendations" and "Off the beaten path" sections? Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:39, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

This is a travel guide, food is part of that, but without some suggestions of where to go how is this a travel article. Next time I visit Boston I would like to know which pizza restaurants to visit. Just listing chains and not notable individual establishments reduces the quality of the article. --Traveler100 (talk) 17:49, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
First of all, it's still a travel guide if we mention regional styles and give examples of restaurants in those discussions. We could even mention particular restaurants in prose for each place with famously good or notable pizzerias - but no templated listings. Do you not agree that the listings could be in the thousands? If we are going to list restaurants, I think we have to establish some standard for notability and/or quality above and beyond the "any editor lists whatever" standard that in practice is operative in most destination articles. I think that means that any place that is listed has to be mentioned either in a review by a person working for a reputable organization (the New York Times or Village Voice, to take 2 New York City examples), a well-regarded blogger (SliceNY used to be an example of that when they were a separate organization, and Road Food is a nationwide U.S. example), or by being recommended by users on a food-oriented site (e.g., Chowhound, but there are several others). And recommendations of "pizza in a great location" are irrelevant to the quality of the pizza, so I think we should adopt a policy of refusing such listings. It's either great pizza, notable pizza (such as Lombardi's) or not listed here. The other good alternative, as I see it, is the one I proposed above: No restaurant listings in this article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:05, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
Suggesting if you ask for feedback wait a while to give other time for input before giving a reply that will influence others responses and put others off who avoid such discussions. --Traveler100 (talk) 18:24, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
I think individual restaurant listings for truly nationally- or internationally-famous or renowned restaurants are not only allowable but desirable. (I already mentioned Lombardi's in Manhattan as an example.) The question of how to define this and where exactly to set the bar is an important one to answer, of course, but I don't think it's an impossible thing to do, or will lead to any kind of slippery slope given an appropriate level of vigilance.. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:45, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
I would remove "city recommendations" and "off the beaten path" sections. I would also turn the bullet points under "regional styles" into subheads, and list the top 5-9 listings for each style there. Wouldn't it sound odd to discuss how amazing Detroit style pizza is, and then not list where you could get a slice? If a place has hundreds of notable options, have another link somewhere to New_York_City#New_York_pizza, which the articles should probably have anyway? We could also add "Traditional" to regional styles? For things like this?
Also, I personally don't find the long lists of chains compelling. I almost want to see "Corporate" as a regional style, even though that doesn't make sense. Like, I think I want to see all the kinds of pizza there are in USA & Canada, and the best few examples of each style. Some might be geographically packed together, others might be more dispersed, and I think that's fine. --ButteBag (talk) 20:01, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
Lombardi's is famous but far from the best pizza in Manhattan, let alone New York City. But what do you all think of the idea of not using listing templates but mentioning names and referring people to the relevant city or district guide for more specifics? Don't tout usually forbids complete listings in more than one guide, in any case. Tangent: Traveler100, you really think my words are likely to "put off" people, such that they don't express their views? And your suggestion is for me to wait and not take part in further discussion? Really? Have I insulted anyone? Sheesh. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:31, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
Yeah you're right Ikan, I guess it's pretty smart to not use listings. That way you'd actually have to write something, instead of (mindlessly) adding more and more listings. I'd guess it would cut down on the amount of policing the article needs. I also kind of want to cut this section, is it different enough from this section to really add value? Or maybe just take a few of the novel sentences and add them somewhere to the Understand section? --ButteBag (talk) 15:01, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
I don't agree on removing "Types of pizzerias". This is a different article from the one about fast food, and pizzerias are by no means always fast food. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:14, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Pizza Hut and the definition of "fast food"[edit]

There's been a bit of a dispute (see the most recent edits in the page history) over whether Pizza Hut counts as fast food. I think it pretty clearly doesn't, but evidently others (Justin) disagree with me.

At every Pizza Hut I've ever been to, the procedure is that of a full-service chain restaurant: you're shown to your table by a hostess who gives you menus and takes your drink order, then a waitress comes by your table and takes your food order, delivers the food to your table after it's ready, and cleans up after you when you leave. They also offer takeaway service that doesn't differ substantially from that of other full-service chain restaurants - say, Applebee's Carside To-Go. The fact that most locations offer delivery differentiates Pizza Hut from most full-service restaurants, but not in a way that puts them closer to fast food: of the chains listed in Fast food in the United States and Canada, only Jimmy John's offers delivery. (Ordinary takeout-and-delivery-only pizzerias, such as Domino's and Papa John's - a category that also encompasses the Pizza Hut Express concept - were similarly deemed not to be fast food, and listings were excised from FFITUSAC. In fact, doing so was a big part of why this article was created in the first place.)

In an edit summary of his, Justin counter-argued that Wikipedia's article on "Fast food" includes a picture of a Pizza Hut location. Be that as it may (and the intent of the uploader of that picture is arguable, as the photo is of a food court that also includes McDonald's and KFC counters), I wonder why we are supposed to consider Wikipedia the ultimate arbiter of what does and doesn't count as fast food. If anything, I think intra-Wikivoyage consistency is more important, which would cause FFITUSAC's pointed omission of Pizza Hut (see the intro to the "Pizza and Italian" section of that article) to supersede Wikipedia's inclusion of it in the category.

As far as I'm concerned, the mark of a fast food restaurant is that you order at the counter, and are responsible for transporting your food from the counter to your table, and for bussing your own table afterward. Yes, "fast-casual" restaurants tinker with that setup to a certain degree, but as I said, Pizza Hut pretty clearly falls into the realm of full-service restaurants as far as I can see.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:07, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Example sources which consider Pizza Hut fast food: Time, Yelp, Business Insider, Fox News, How Stuff Works, Forbes (paywall but it's about Top 10 Global Fast-Food Chains), Newsweek. Forums debating the topic: Quora, Yahoo! Answers. —Justin (koavf)TCM 21:14, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
@AndreCarrotflower: In case my edit summary was too brief, my argument was also that the language explicitly says that it's fast food as well: "Pizza is a common fast food category in the United States, with nationwide chains including Papa John's, Domino's Pizza, Sbarro and Pizza Hut. It trails only the burger industry in supplying children's fast food calories.[30] Menus are more limited and standardized than in traditional pizzerias, and pizza delivery is offered." —Justin (koavf)TCM 21:15, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
  1. If some hack writer for Newsweek, Forbes, or "How Stuff Works" wants to include Pizza Hut in the "Top 10 (something to do with fast-food)" listicle they've been assigned to write, that doesn't constitute a ringing endorsement of the idea that Pizza Hut counts as fast food so much as a lazy way to fill in a blank in a puff piece that no one is going to be parsing too closely.
  2. Anonymous Yelpers or layman Quora commenters are no more or less qualified than any of us here to decree whether Pizza Hut is a fast-food restaurant or not.
  3. Again, if Wikipedia's editing community has come to a decision that Pizza Hut is considered fast food for their purposes, whether that be through the photos chosen for the article or in its actual text, that needn't have any bearing on whether we do the same.
Of the articles you cited that really deal with the substance of whether Pizza Hut is fast food or not, the consensus definition of "fast food" seems to be (quoting from the Quora piece) that it "is quick and easy to prepare", that it "can be eaten in the restaurant or taken out", that it uses "pre-prepped and manufactured ingredients purchased in quantity" and that "while some fast food chains have incorporated a few more healthy options, another characteristic of American fast food is that it is not a healthy choice". Fair enough, but those parameters encompass, frankly, the vast majority of full-service casual restaurants like Applebee's and Olive Garden, right along with the McDonald's and Subways of the world. (My food at Pizza Hut doesn't come out significantly sooner after I order it than at other full-service chains.) The very fact that we have separate articles for Fast food in the United States and Canada and Restaurant chains in North America implies that Wikivoyage's definition is narrower.
-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:32, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
@AndreCarrotflower: You're giving me nothing to work with here as the only counter to all of these "hacks" at nationally-syndicated newsweeklies and the largest restaurant review aggregator in the world is... some guy on a wiki? What, in principle, would constitute proof for you? I have provided some casual public opinion, some (popular-level) business reporting, and a review site for restaurants--what kind of source would you find acceptable? The citation from Wikipedia is scholarly: it's Plos ONE. ( Rehm, Colin D.; Drewnowski, Adam. "A New Method to Monitor the Contribution of Fast Food Restaurants to the Diets of US Children". PLoS ONE. ) So none of this is convincing to you? —Justin (koavf)TCM 22:00, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
I presume we're just choosing to draw an arbitrary line somewhere. Perhaps the line runs between takeaway/counter service (which is fast food) and table service (where someone actually brings the food to you and has their hand out for a gratuity, the conventional model pre-McDo/BK/DQ/etc)? By that measure, Pizza Butt is conventional table service, not fast food per se. K7L (talk) 22:08, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
Yes. In the final analysis, the line is an arbitrary one, drawn more or less where K7L indicated (again, "fast-casual" places can differ). But another element governing it is the preexisting convention we've established at Wikivoyage in the Fast food in the United States and Canada article, which we should hew to for practical reasons. If we consider Pizza Hut fast food for the purposes of this article, it would have to hold true at FFITUSAC as well. And that would mean not only adding back the Pizza Hut listing (along with Pizza Delight and Pizza 73, being essentially regional Pizza Hut clones, and probably a few others too) to an article that's already flirting with long-list territory, but also completely redesigning the "Pizza and Italian" section, which is currently configured on the premise that true fast-food restaurants that specialize in pizza are few and far between. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:17, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
I find the Quora responses puzzling, though perhaps they're an artifact of the way the question was worded. But to me the defining feature of fast food is counter-service ordering and the lack of waitstaff. On that measure Pizza Hut Express would qualify as fast food but Pizza Hut would not. Other places like Smashburger or Friendly's Express fall into a mushy middle ground by that definition, but I've not really seen a better one. Powers (talk) 01:17, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Can we maybe split the difference? Like say something like "is the biggest Italian fast food chain, unless you count Pizza Hut, which is bigger" ? Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:18, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

@Hobbitschuster: I thought my edit did but yes, please put in any compromise language that you think works. —Justin (koavf)TCM 17:36, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
Look, maybe I should specify that the edit Justin made really isn't that big a deal to me per se. What I'm concerned about is any possibility that we may have to re-add the Pizza Hut listing back to the Fast food in the United States and Canada article. As I said above, if we do that, then as I see it we could no longer justify excluding the regionally-based Pizza Hut clones Pizza Delight and Pizza 73 from that article. Nor would there be any justification for having deleted the Swiss Chalet and St-Hubert listings, those chains boiling down essentially to the Pizza Hut concept applied to rotisserie chicken (most locations are full-fledged restaurants with table service, but all offer delivery, and some "Express" locations only offer takeout and delivery). The lists of different chains on that article are already just about as long as they can stand to be, and the above-mentioned listings were moved (either to this article or to Restaurant chains in North America) for a good reason.
As for this article, I'm open to the possibility of some compromise, but only if it's worded so as to leave no possibility for the above to happen. I'm not sure how that could be done and would be more inclined to leaving things as is (as are?), but if someone can manage to walk that tightrope, I'd be more than happy to sign off on the end result.
-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:27, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
@AndreCarrotflower: But Sbarro is in Fast food in the United States and Canada at the moment... Just make a note there that says "for info about pizza, see..." I agree duplicate content is probably a bad idea but I think this is easily fixed. —Justin (koavf)TCM 19:30, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
@Justin: I think you misunderstand me. Sbarro is IMO that rare example of true fast-food pizza. I'm talking about Pizza Hut here, and how weird it would look for Wikivoyage to describe that place as fast food in this article but (through the conspicuous lack of a listing for it, as well as the wording in the section lede to #Pizza and Italian) categorize it as not fast food in FFITUSAC. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:35, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
@AndreCarrotflower: Sure--I see what you mean. I still see this as a non-issue. But your earlier point was "oh, just because these guys all say that Pizza Hut is fast food doesn't make it fast food" but now you're saying that the definition of "fast food" is just arbitrary and we can make it up as we go along--which is a contradiction. Now your problem is that you don't want the same place listed in two overlapping articles but 1.) I don't think it really matters and 2.) that's already going to be true in a few contexts for a few restaurants--it's just something that's going to happen. If the fast food article is too long, then prune some text, remove some entries, split it into two, etc. —Justin (koavf)TCM 19:39, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
@Justin: I wasn't lying when I said I don't think Pizza Hut counts as fast food, or that the definition of fast food is arbitrary. But if it weren't for the other issue with FFITUSAC, I wouldn't feel strongly enough about it to quibble about a few words in the Sbarro listing. I was employing those arguments in the service of my ultimate goal of maintaining the current status quo at FFITUSAC, which maybe I should have been more open about from the getgo - mea culpa on that part. Maybe the answer is to just dodge the question and not even mention how many locations Sbarro has. That's not absolutely essential information anyway. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:45, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
@AndreCarrotflower: Oh certainly--I don't think you were lying or misleading in any way. I absolutely respect you and what you do here. —Justin (koavf)TCM 20:22, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Godfather's?[edit]

Godfather's Pizza is a well-established chain with outlets across the country, is it worth mentioning or is it omitted intentionally? Powers (talk) 20:25, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Omitted, but unintentionally. Add away. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:41, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
I did my best, never having set foot in one. Powers (talk) 23:42, 2 November 2017 (UTC)