Talk:Sofia

It seems that Huttite removes regularly the external links I add. Why is that? Is it wrong? Please tell me, so I do it right in future - mapto (unregisetred), 16 Jan 2006, 11:05 EET

See Project:external links. We have a strict policy of only linking to primary sources. --(WT-en) Evan 16:11, 16 Jan 2006 (EST)

Prices

More information about prices (selection "By train" for example) were useful. Thanks!

mobsters

whilst probably true that the crime rate is high (as it is in any major city) and i don't dispute that some police will take advantage of foreigners. i don't believe anyone, pedestrians or otherwise will have problems with mobsters unless they insult one or are one themselves. i would recommend caution crossing the street though.

Deleted listings

I rolled back the deletion of three listings -- although the editor said they looked like advertisements, they don't seem particularly toutish to me, and regardless they should probably be edited rather than just deleted. --(WT-en) Evan 18:39, 13 June 2007 (EDT)

Do

Biggest IMAX cinema in the world ?? Yeah, right.

I don't like the article at all, its completely biased, and not true... I donb't know if the author has been at all in Sofia...(WT-en) DemonX 08:51, 24 September 2009 (EDT)

If you love a place, one tend to be a bit rosy, but that is what wikis are for Plunge Forward and make it better and more neutral? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 09:37, 24 September 2009 (EDT)

Tour listings

I believe all three of these tour listings are at variance with this site's tour listing policy, as anyone could walk, hike or run on these routes without a guide (free or not):

• 1 Free Sofia Tour (The free English-language sightseeing walking tour of Bulgaria’s capital), Corner of Alabin Str. and 2 Vitosha Blvd, ☏ +359 886 993 977. Every day, twice a day - both at 11AM & 6PM. No reservation required - just show up! Starting point is the corner of the Palace of Justice (Sudebna Palata). 
• Sofia Run Tour (English speaking sightseeing running tours), Sveta Nedelya square (St.Nedelya Church), ☏ +359 885 523630. The Guided Sightseeing Running Tours experience offers the runners who travel for leisure or business to have a good chance to discover Sofia. Learn about the city's history and landmarks with a local Guide runner, without interrupting training. Workdays - FEE. Weekends - FREE. Every Day! Please book online. Start Point: front of the Sveta Nedelya church 
• Sofia Hike Tour (English speaking hiking tours), National Theater Ivan Vazov (5, Dyakon Ignatiy str.), ☏ +359 885 523630. Join an Experienced Guide and spend a day of healthy hiking from the protected by UNESCO Boyana church to the Boyana waterfalls and Boyana lake. Every Day free Boyana hiking tour (12 April - November) at 11AM. Meeting point: National Theater "Ivan Vazov". In total more that 10 different hiking tours around Sofia available. 

If you think any of these listings should be restored to the article, please explain why an independent traveller couldn't take these walks, runs or hikes on their own. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:13, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Stay safe changes

I've been in Sophia for almost a week now and I feel that some more cautions need to be added to the city, but I'm unsure how these changes will be received.

There isn't really two ways to say it, the gypsies/roma here steal things. I don't want to be accused of racism or breach any policies but the problem of petty theft is so closely tied to Roma communities and they are a distinct threat. The locals are wary of them and I think it's fair to say travelers should be as well. I've tried to word the caution in a way that isn't derogatory, but the traveler comes first and I'm not sure a general warning about thieves is as usefull.

I have also personally witnessed large numbers of nationalist/neo-nazi/far right/paramilitary gangs on the streets in the outer suburbs, covered in swastikas and celtic crosses. I'm unsure how much of a threat they pose to travelers, but they have been involved repeatedly in anti-gay and anti-immigrant protests in the city for years and have often called for violence. you see nazi graffiti everywhere in the southern neighborhoods, and something should probably be said about that as well.

I would welcome any comment on this, because it is a sensitive area. —The preceding comment was added by username/Willthewanderer (talk • contribs)

I think you can say locals blame Gypsies, but I don't think you can assume you actually know the ethnicity of the people doing the stealing. I know that in Rome, people say "watch out for the Gypsies", but I understand that quite a lot of the thieves aren't Roma at all, but other kinds of people from Eastern Europe. "Gypsies steal" is a longtime racist stereotype that's prone to confirmation bias, so be cautious. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:54, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

I read your edits. I think they're quite problematic, for the reasons I mention, but if we're really positive the offenders are truly Romanies in Romany neighborhoods, the very least you could do is capitalize "Gypsies". But I do find this stuff really troubling, on the order of "watch out for those Jewish cheaters" or any other traditional invidious stereotype. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:07, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

I think there is very little to be gained from blaming certain ethnic groups for the crime that's going on. And it is unnecessarily inflaming. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:22, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Shall we edit these changes? Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:41, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

I probably should have posted the discussion before making the edits, I was trying to phrase the warning about thieves in such a way that the ethnicity of the thieves wasn't relevant; but honestly I wasn't sure how else to put it. While I am aware of the risk of perpetuating a stereotype the Gypsies here are a persecuted minority many Gypsies turn to petty crime and I have seen it with my own eyes.

I wouldn't even mention the ethnicity of the thieves but 70% of the prison population here are Roma according to Wikipedia and being frank with travelers about who in a crowd is more likely to steal their camera seems pertinent.

Would there be a better way of phrasing the warning so that it isn't so prejudiced or inflammatory? Would a general warning about thieves suffice here? How else would you designate these bad neighborhoods? Geographically they are generally on the outskirts but there are also a number I passed that are inner city slums. Forgive me if I lacked sensitivity --Willthewanderer (talk) 08:14, 1 September 2017 (UTC) On the basis of what you said and pending discussion I cut my edits to a simple warning, but even reading the rest of the section "If you get in legal trouble with some of the locals, the Bulgarian police and judiciary may not protect you adequately because of corruption and nepotism." It seems inflammatory, but still quiet relevant.

I would be very cautious about assuming that percentages of an oppressed minority in prison show what percent of criminals are members of that minority. In the U.S., the percentage of black people in prison (and even more so, in jail because of lack of money for bail) is quite disproportionate to the number of crimes committed by them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:23, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm only making the caution because of what I have seen myself, multiple thefts,roma selling expensive phones to local gangsters, the pawn shops side by side next to their slums. My only interest is in ensuring travelers aren't victims of theft because they are not aware of the position roma have in Bulgarian society. If there is a non-predjudicial way to convey that then all the better —The preceding comment was added by Willthewanderer (talk • contribs)

You could write something like "Members of the Roma minority tend to be blamed for most of these crimes; take that for whatever it's worth." Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:57, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Catholic cathedral Sofia-2.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:54, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

No FoP in Bulgaria. Do we want this? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:00, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

No, the photo sucks, IMO, and the building is of moderate interest at most. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:33, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Weird Dos

I was wondering how you guys feel about these 4 Dos: Free bike tour, Eat with a local host, pub crawl, and The red flat here. They sound like a dozen other arbitrary short lived, pop up thing that wont last very long and dont seem to be particularly worth mentioning, like tour companies and other almost tout like things. I mean if someone is interested in them, they can just look into Google Maps, but why would WV be a good place to mention these particular 4?

Are you fine with me deleting them?

Cheers, Ceever (talk) 18:24, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

What is even that weird phone no. for the dinner, and the US$ price??? Ceever (talk) 18:28, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

The Red flat is apparently a place that you can visit, like a small-scale theme park or museum, so that one I wouldn't delete.

The three tours are a little so and so, undoubtedly someone could be interested in the activities, but I'm not sure they're compliant with our tour policy. The phone number thing and dollar price do look weird, the latter would be understandable in countries where tourists use hard currency. So delete those if you like. --Ypsilon (talk) 18:58, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Bike tours can be listed, though the language should describe the tour and not tout the city. I wouldn't have thought any of the other tours are OK per policy, but if Red Flat is, it should probably be listed under "See," with the question of whether visits are only by guided tour clarified. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:03, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Aren't museums supposed to go under Do? Ceever (talk) 21:15, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

No, they are supposed to go under See - Wikivoyage:Article skeleton templates/Sections § See and Wikivoyage:Where you can stick it § M. Daggerstab (talk) 08:03, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I would also remove the "free" bike tour. While most reviews are positive, there seems to be a clear monetary motive and you still need to rent the bikes from them: https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g294452-d2204523-Reviews-or60-Sofia_Green_Tour-Sofia_Sofia_Region.html

I feel, it is a dodgy way to advertise and it is tout like. Also, on Tripadvisor they are even selling normal tours for quite some prices. So, there is no reason to prefer them here over other "free" tours.

It just doesnt feel right to use WV to trick travellers this way. Now, I actually feel like mentioning this in a separate paragraph, for travellers to be aware that these tours do expect money even if they claim to be free.

Cheers Ceever (talk) 21:37, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Museums are listed under "See." Bike tours, regardless of expense, are considered a value-added activity under this site's WV:Tour policy. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:05, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

There's an actual free walking tour in English, https://freesofiatour.com/, but it's not in the article, even though it's been active for at least ten years... Daggerstab (talk) 08:07, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Also looks like a tour to marketeer their other non-free tours. I don't know, I am sceptical about these "free" tours. Don't really think they belong on WV. You will never know how long they exist, at least a sight or museum has some continuance. (Yes, I understand they have been around for 10 years.) They are probably also advertised in hostels or accommodations and can be found on Google Maps. But this is just my opinion. Cheers Ceever (talk) 14:34, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

The governing guidelines on what kinds of tours can be listed and in what situations, which you might remember were adopted after a lot of discussion, are at Wikivoyage:Tour. If there's anything there that you would like to revisit, just start or add to a discussion on Wikivoyage talk:Listings, link it here and consider publicizing it at Requests for comment and the Travellers' pub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:55, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

As I said, it's just my opinion, not binding in any way (@Daggerstab:). Sorry, I cannot track all discussions here and spend all life on WV, just to make a point. Kind of makes you think how biased such discussions and decisions must be. ... C'est la vie. Thanks for feedback. Ceever (talk) 18:11, 2 May 2023 (UTC)