Template talk:Formatbox

cancat=

If anyone is wondering why that parameter exists, it is mainly to avoid categorising this doc, but otherwise it does nothing. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:46, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

That's the expressions à la {{{cancat|[[Category:Countries where Wikivoyage uses Canadian spelling]]}}}, I assume.

What about instead having something along the lines of (not yet tested)

{{{#ifeq: {{NAMESPACE}} | 1 |[[Category:Countries where Wikivoyage uses {{spelling}} spelling]]|}}}

I'd also prefer to have that code (and thus the resulting category) at the end, as that's where they usually are. The construction requires transforming the spelling parameter into canonical form, which I haven't been doing, but I'll be surprised if it isn't easy.

–LPfi (talk) 11:14, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

New template: Formatbox

Swept in from the pub

Proposal

New template here, it's been sitting for a while, but I've got everything fixed which has got me waiting. But anyway, in a nutshell, the template is just to replace the existing format box, but in a much more consistent, cleaner way, with also some key differences for each of the spelling variations for that aren't sure and are learning English as a second or third language, more for those who have a scale of en-1 or en-2, but even for the minority spoken dialects like New Zealand english which LPfi brought up at talk:Ireland which for the most part, are known by few outside the home country of the dialect.

Formatting and language conventions For articles about Formatbox, please use the 24-hour clock to show times, e.g. 09:00-12:00 and 18:00-00:00. Please show prices in this format: $100 and not A$100, AUD 100 or AU$100. Please use Canadian spelling (colour, centre, travelled, realize, analyze, program). Phone numbers should be formatted as +64 XXXX XXXX.

I've rather put it into a template, for a couple of reasons, like less chance for spelling errors, errors overall, and rather more cleaner, and more, phone number formats which were said to be done, but eventually left hanging on a cliff. You can see some of them at Talk:Malaysia or Talk:Saudi Arabia. It's pretty clear, and when something changes, it can quickly be changed (so if some spelling in British english changes, then all of them will change at once). Most of the features can be found in the doc, but as a demo, here's one of them, which you can see on the right. This affects newbies in no way (or infact, help them in some cases, because it is the outcome that they would need to know), and only really is just for maintenance purposes, as well as using categories to keep track of where these are used (these can be removed if the community does not wish for these categories).

Formatting and language conventions For articles about Canada, please use the 12-hour clock to show times, e.g. 9AM-noon and 6PM-midnight except for articles about Quebec in which the 24-hour clock should be used to show times, e.g. 09:00-12:00 and 18:00-00:00. Please show prices in this format: $100 and not C$100, CAD 100 or CA$100. Please use Canadian spelling (colour, centre, travelled, realize, analyze, program). Phone numbers should be formatted as +1 YYY-XXX-XXXX..

Oh, and for exceptions like with Quebec and Scotland, there's another one for those so it produced what again you see on the right. (have used Canada here)

There's no downsides here with this template, and the problems are only transferring the old template to the new, which, a few errors have come up, but can easily be resolved.

--SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:06, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

---

Community discussion

As things stand, I support this, though reserve the right to change my mind if someone puts forward a compelling argument against.

I just tried out making my own box by following the guidance on the template page, and here's some notes:

• Each field that produces a sentence should ensure that sentence ends with a full stop. For example, if you add a time cmt, the sentence currently runs on awkwardly. From my test: "For articles about Syldavia, please use the 24-hour clock to show times, e.g. 09:00-12:00 and 18:00-00:00 Syldavians don't understand the 12-hour clock."

• The 'reason' and 'extraprice' fields don't really make any sense, perhaps because the examples are missing or not very clear. What are they for?

• In my example, I tried inputting Maltese to the spelling field, and the result says "Use British spelling". If we're going to allow Maltese as an input, it should probably give you "Use Maltese spelling". If Maltese spelling isn't a thing, we shouldn't have Maltese as an input.

• The phone field should probably have an example format of a number, just so people know what to write.

Also, a slight quibble with the spelling examples. Firstly, I'm not sure they're needed at all given the existence of Wikivoyage:Spelling and English language varieties, but secondly if they are to be used then two examples ought to be reconsidered: "fjord" is not a widely-used word in most dialects of English, so I'd suggest it only be used on the New Zealand version of the box, where the spelling is "fiord" and the word is in reasonably common use due to the country's geography; "kilogram(me)" is usually written as "kg" in our articles per Wikivoyage:Measurements, so a better example would be "program(me)".--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:09, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. Regarding the full stops, it was deliberately not included for the following reason. If I want to get the output ...24-hour clock despite how aurally the 12 hour clock is used, but enter the code:

|time=24
|timecmt=despite how aurally the 12 hour clock is used.

I get what I initially wanted, but otherwise, there is that random unwanted fullstop in between.

Regarding Maltese spelling, while we decided on Talk:Malta that en-GB was to be used, we only had four people participate, and none of us were certain on what the difference is, so if somebody figures it out, then it will automatically change to Maltese spelling.

Those extraprice and reason is for examples like Talk:Mexico. Will do the phone number in a sec. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:19, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

WRT the full stop, "...24-hour clock to show times, e.g. 09:00-12:00 and 18:00-00:00 despite how aurally, the 12 hour clock is used" is a much less clear way of saying ".....24-hour clock to show times, e.g. 09:00-12:00 and 18:00-00:00. In speech, the 12-hour clock is used." Most people writing an additional comment would assume they were writing a new sentence, not continuing the already lengthy previous one.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:25, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

It would be a good idea to use Mexico as an example in the documentation, because as I said, the notes weren't clear when I was trying to follow them.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:28, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Added. Since Canada and the UK has its own section, on top of 12 and 24, there is no other need for the full stop to be gone. I still can't find why I added them, but possibly because I did something to the price. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:41, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Oh, it's for examples like Talk:Falkland Islands or Talk:United Kingdom where certain templates can be used. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:43, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

On Maltese: I don't like the idea of a template enforcing policy. If we don't want to use Maltese English, then somebody can revert the edit, instead of having odd magic replace it with something else.

A more thorough discussion on the variant used is needed, and the place for that discussion is Wikivoyage:Spelling, English language varieties or some similar page, which can be linked from the template (I'd like it to be in the Wikivoyage namespace, as most details are irrelevant to travellers). If we have it there, it is kind of redundant to have the word examples, but I see no big harm in having them.

Some of the parameters are a bit hard to grasp. The problem can probably not be solved entirely, but there might be ways to improve the template on this point.

–LPfi (talk) 12:03, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

So... @LPfi, ThunderingTyphoons!: Do we accept the use of this template? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:14, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I think there might still be a bug or two, as in my try-out box linked from my first comment, I still have |spelling=Maltese, but the sentence "Use Maltese spelling." isn't displaying; in the documentation it says Maltese is an accepted value. But overall I haven't stopped supporting this template.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:45, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

That's because I removed Maltese after the controversy (which we've decided to use British spelling for Maltese). I'll remove it from the doc though. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:52, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I think some discussion, contemplation and work are still needed. The Maltese shows that the template is trying to enforce policy, which is confusing (such as with Maltese) and requires that policy changes are implemented in the template, which is non-obvious and might go unnoticed (or implemented without change in the documentation). Whether or not we want this hasn't been discussed. I would appreciate comments on the other concerns (fixed/won'tfix/needsreview/needsdiscussion). –LPfi (talk) 10:26, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

The Maltese has since been removed and has been updated in the documentation. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:31, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

But the decision made was never discussed here, despite my commenting on it. Does removing Maltese answer the concern expressed in my previous comment?

I now changed the intro to actually explain what the template is for. Looking at the documentation I saw a sentence I do not understand:

"All except for time are optional, however the spelling, not and price are necessary."

The sentence should be clarified; what is an optional but necessary parameter? Formally optional but necessary in practice? Why are not and price treated differently from the time?

–LPfi (talk) 10:49, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

The answer on why those weren't necessary, I tried to make all of them optional, but the coding was too much to wrap my head around for time. TO clarify, leaving all of them blank would work, except for time, although as per all fmt boxes, you can't leave out the spelling and price. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:53, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @LPfi, ThunderingTyphoons!: so can I start implementing this template? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:23, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I'd like to have the concerns listed and answered, e.g. with fixed/wontfix etc. as I suggested below, and any clarifying comments in addition to that. Concerns (mostly mentioned above) include:

1. Punctuation (might have been fixed). Is the behaviour documented?
2. Some parameter names are not self-explanatory.
3. The template tries to enforce policy. Is this what we want? Are there procedures in place to ensure that the policy enforced isn't an outdated one?
4. Are the descriptions of languages needed and sufficient? Are the examples well-chosen?
5. Has the "optional but necessary parameter" issue been solved? Seems no parameters are required now, although an empty formatbox is kind of silly.
6. Does the template work as intended with the visual editor?

If there is help needed to make something work, then I think we should try to solve the problems together. Some concerns might need discussion. If something is believed to be solved, then it can be tested, but while it is not yet, testing is frustrating (trying to figure out why it does not work for me, while it doesn't work at all). I think we need consensus on all the points (or on that they can be solved later) before we go on to decide whether the template should be put in wide use.

–LPfi (talk) 15:06, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

BUMP! This template is now being put in use systematically ‎(by Veracious), while it still has the "experimental" notice. I assume there is consensus on using the template, but I find it very disturbing that nobody answered my list of concerns above. Most of them can probably be dealt with quite easily (such as documenting what free-text parameters assume full sentences) and some are too severe to be ignored. –LPfi (talk) 06:54, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

@LPfi Whoops, sorry, i didn't notice that this was an experimental template. Veracious (talk) 07:17, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I think it is no more, but the problems should be solved quickly. –LPfi (talk) 08:01, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, okay. Thanks. Veracious (talk) 08:48, 17 October 2023 (UTC)