Talk:Association football in Europe

Which direction is this page going?

Is this a guide to watching football in europe generally? a directory for good clubs? I've put some generic info up about english footy ( my area of particular interest :D ) although this is just to give the page some feeling. I personally think this would work well as a general guide to watching football, ie what to expect, what to do, how to get tickets, teams to see etc... maybe a bit more info than it is possible to put into article pages. (WT-en) Tsandell 18:10, 22 May 2006 (EDT)

Well maybe this could be considered a field of pursuit but then the article should focus on the practical travel side of watching football around a continent, and not on the sports side of it. (WT-en) Ricardo (Rmx) 18:25, 22 May 2006 (EDT)

Am I the only one grossly offended by singling out some clubs as "Worth watching"? "Top clubs" is fair enough, but I'm pretty sure any club is "worth watching".

Good point and well done for amending that. It would be good to see a bit more information in this article about seeing football outside of the top 4 or 5 clubs in each country. Someone has started to do that in the German section with some details of "interesting" clubs in the lower divisions, and I know the English lower league "scene" (to give just one example) is bigger than that in Germany.(WT-en) Tarr3n 04:18, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

Renaming

Shouldn't it be football in europe. In England it's football, in Spain it's futbol so... (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage • ( Talk ) • ( (WT-en) Travel ) • 03:40, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

I have to agree. Even the French call it football. It could be argued that "soccer" fits in with the Wikivoyage spelling policy that says we should use US English wherever another form of English is not normally used (which would apply to Europe other than the UK & Ireland). However I have many friends in places like Germany and Spain who would always use "football" when speaking English. We could go with Association Football in Europe but for me that's a bit dry and wikipedia-ish. I'd back (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage's suggestion and put in a line or two at the start about this being the version of football known as "soccer" in North America, Australia and NZ. Incidentally I wasn't aware that "soccer" was now a verb until I saw soccering in the introduction to this article - or is somebody taking the mickey?!(WT-en) Tarr3n 04:18, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

Soccers a verb! First time I've heard of it! :) (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage • ( Talk ) • ( (WT-en) Travel ) •

I agree with the proposal to rename this page. It's Fussball in German, le foot in France, er, calcio in Italian...(WT-en) Jnich99 12:04, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

OK. That looks like a consensus to me. Nobody has objected so I have renamed the article and made some relevant changes to the introduction. (WT-en) Tarr3n 07:38, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

I fear this ship has set sail long ago, but I think it should be called either association football (in FIFA for example the "FA" part stands for football association) as there is more than one sport called football globally as there were: Rugby football, Gaelic football, American football, Aussie rules football and several minor varieties I am to lazy to look up, and most of them are (also) known as a variety of "footer" "football" or "footy" locally. The argument with Germany is particular BS, as Germans refer to Soccer as Fußball and if they say "Football" it is assumed, that they mean AMERICAN FOOTBALL, which does have a significant fan base in Germany, Roger Goodell's shutting down of NFL Europe notwithstanding. Point is: Go to an average English speaking person ask them what "football" is and unless they are Manchester United hooligans they are rather unlikely to respond with the sport discussed in this articleHobbitschuster (talk) 15:29, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

If you're talking about the sport in English with someone from the UK or Europe in general (Portugal etc), don't you refer to it as football? ϒpsilon (talk) 15:39, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I call it soccer. But than again I like to complain about too many scoreless draws. BUT I think that as the traveller comes first, we should consider what people who read this article are likely going to call it. And as Europeans probably know most of the things about soccer in Europe that are mentioned in this article, I would rather think we should have Australians, Americans and Canadians in mind as well as those numerous people who learned in English class in school, that the sport is called "soccer". The term "soccer" originated in England, is unambiguous everywhere and doesn't marginalize other sports or their followers. I could live with association football, as it is also unambiguous "correct" and international, but imho it is too long to put in the title. Soccer on the other hand originated precisely as an abbreviation of "association" (as in "association football") and was (according to WP) the predominant term for the sport in England until about the 1970s.Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:06, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

It seems like a variant on the question on using 'British' (commonwealth) or 'American' English in Wikivoyage articles.

Also I don't think 'soccer' is that universal. The word 'football' is literally used in many translations such as as 'Fútbol' in Spain, 'Futebo' in Portugal (both by extension covers the whole of Latin America) and Fußball in Germany. It is true that Americans, Canadians and Australians would be more comfortable with 'soccer', but the rest of the world is usually use 'football'. Just to pick out some big countries see: w:Chinese_Football_Association , w:Nigeria_Football_Federation and w:All_India_Football_Federation Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:53, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Well yeah with two exceptions (USA and Canada) all national soccer federations call themselves something that contains the word "Football", however ALL national American Football federation use the word Football. (often unqualified and untranslated as in in the American Football Verband Deutschland AFVD). Therefore the term used by national associations to promote that sport isn't really the source we should turn to to determine the use of the name. There has been a tendency within FIFA to monopolize the "brand name" "Football" as if the Canadian, American or Rugby versions simply didn't exist. The fair solution imho is to either call "Footballs" with their "official" name or use an unambiguous short term (where available) and soccer is such an unambiguous short term. You can say what you want about soccer as a term, but it is not likely somebody will understand any other sport when the word soccer is used. Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:28, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

'Soccer' is unambiguous, however it is not universal. I don't think the majority of the world would know what the term 'soccer' is, whereas the English word 'football' will be correctly understood by most outside Canada/USA.

There have been a lot of discussions on English Wikivoyage (which most other languages are fortunate to avoid) about which variant of English to use. This article is about 'association football' which is truly international and therefore not American centric. Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:25, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I would oppose renaming this article "Soccer," on the same basis as Andrew does. If it's important to make this article Association football, with Football as a disambiguation page, that's OK with me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:07, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not keen on 'Association football' as a title.. it may be correct terminology but it is confusing since nobody actually says 'I'm off to watch an association football match'.

Also this article has a prominent disclaimer at the top that makes it clear to North Americans what sort of football it is talking about.

I think creating Football as a disambiguation is more than fine though. Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:31, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I created Football as a disambiguation page. Interesting that there are actually almost no articles about any variety of football. Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:44, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I went ahead and created an article on American Football please add information, if you know something that might be useful. If you think some or all of the stuff in the article is superfluous, please let me know. Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 02:16, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I also did the same for Rugby Football. I think the principle is just to keep articles relevant to travellers as much as possible. I don't have any particular knowledge on American football so good luck with that! Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:29, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I would prefer the title Football in Europe. It is short and unambiguous. /Yvwv (talk) 21:00, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Knuckledraggers

Well it was only a matter of time before some of the unsavoury elements in Scottish football started messing about with this page. Well done (WT-en) AndyGers and sundry anonymous Wikivoyage users with blue noses and hilarious patter. I've tidied it back up again. (WT-en) Tarr3n 10:42, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

relatively safe environment

Really? Who thinks that the San Siro's safe, may I ask? Or for that matter, any serie A / la liga stadium? (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage • ( Talk ) • ( (WT-en) Travel ) • [sorry, forgotten to sign earlier]

You have a point with regard to Italy, though I'm not so sure about Spain? I've made an amendment to the relevant part of the introduction to take this on board. Why not plunge forward and write a "Stay Safe" section for Italy. (WT-en) Tarr3n 09:39, 2 December 2008 (EST)

Er, I haven't a clue about how to stay safe. I've noticed that in football stadiums, home and away fans never mix; in fact, they keep yelling at each other. So the solution I can think of is not landing up in the wrong stands. I come from India and follow cricket, not football, and there are no home/away stands in cricket stadiums, fans mix and party together. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage • ( Talk ) • ( (WT-en) Travel ) • 03:02, 24 March 2009 (EDT)

Page Expansion - Turning it Into a "How To"

I think this page kind of reads like a list of major clubs in the more prominent leagues, and doesn't really provide any help for someone looking to go to match anywhere. Anyone else think it could be worth expanding to include information such as how to get hold of tickets in certain countries? Happy to provide some details myself.

The "stay safe" paragraph in the Scotland section could probably do with being taken out and given its own little section as well, generic stuff like don't wear away colours, don't cheer away goals in the home end, that sort of thing. Any suggestions? --(WT-en) Irishmcbride 17:22, 12 July 2012 (EDT)

Plural of "stadium"

I speak English as a second language, so I don't know the correct plural of "stadium", but "stadia" looks just too "latin" to be real? Is this actually a thing in any existing dialect of English? (I am not all that knowledgeable about British English as many might know). Should we use it if it is a somewhat common form in one variant of English yet unknown in another? Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:34, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

In the U.S., "stadia" is so old-fashioned that it's been thoroughly supplanted by "stadiums". I don't know what the situation is in other English-speaking parts of the world. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:14, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Teams supported by the nobility

I am a bit surprised to read in bullet points about Turkey and Greece about teams supposedly supported by the nobility. Is that true? Or is a more bourgeois upper class meant by that? Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:36, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

"Nobility" is an inaccurate word when referring to republics. The Ottomans and the Greek kingdom would have had a nobility; nowadays I imagine Greece and Turkey have an upper class like anywhere else, but nothing more. Whether or not it's true that the wealthier / more powerful classes support specific teams in those countries, I couldn't tell you, but "nobility" is certainly the wrong word. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:23, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

The wording explicitly refers to historic associations. And Greece had a king into quite recent times. I also very much doubt your assertion of there never being a nobility in Republics. Just think of Venice or the United Provinces. Both Republics run by the nobility. Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:15, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

The nobility is, by definition, aristocracy, and the existence of an aristocracy nearly always entails a monarchy of some sort, unless the aristocratic titles are merely historic or symbolic continuations with no legal status attached to them, as many modern European republics have. The wording in the article to me implies the traditional class associations with teams are ongoing, but that may not be the case. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:48, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Tell the thing about no nobility existing in e.g. Germany to the likes of the Yellow Press (especially their weekly and monthly outlets) who still seem to bow as much to the second estate as ultra religious types now to the first. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:39, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Expand this article

I was wandering if we could expand this article to include other continents. While it is true that the standard of play in Europe is higher than everywhere else, there are also many other countries where football is deeply ingrained in the local culture, and rivalries between local clubs are just as charged as the ones in Europe. Brazil, Argentina, Mexico and Egypt are some of those I can come up with right now, and I would say the Kolkata Derby in India probably ranks pretty highly as well in terms of intensity. The dog2 (talk) 21:09, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Why not create articles for Association football in South America, Association football in Africa, and Association football in Asia? Ground Zero (talk) 01:46, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

We could, but I'm not sure there is enough content to justify all those individual articles apart from the South American and maybe the African one. The dog2 (talk) 02:17, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

"All those individual articles?" I suggested three.

A short, specific article is more useful to the reader than a meandering, omnibus one. Ground Zero (talk) 02:28, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Mexico is in North America, not South America, so I presumed you forgot that one. I'm happy to consolidate it into Association football in Latin America though. Of course, we could in theory have a Association football in North America article, but soccer isn't popular in the United States of Canada, so creating one article just for Mexico seems a bit overkill.

Here's a compromise I can suggest. We can create an article just called Association football, but retain this article as a separate one, with a link to it in that new article. We can sort the other countries by continent in that article, and we can create the individual continental article when one of those sections gets too long. How does that sound? The dog2 (talk) 02:42, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Okay. Ground Zero (talk) 02:53, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

England - "Touts" illegal?

I was going to add the following under the notes in England, but wanted a second opinion, as to it's accuracy before doing so.

"Do not buy tickets from unknown sources, 'resold' football tickets are generally illegal in the UK, and 'touts' outside the ground are breaking the law."

I've seen mention that there are also some European level anti-tout rules as well, is this true? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:10, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

The rule is generally (though I don't know whether that is legally enforced) that tickets cannot be resold above their original purchase value... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:29, 27 June 2020 (UTC)