Talk:History of organized labor

Possible additions

https://battleofhomestead.org/bhf/pittsburghs-labor-history-sites-an-interactive-map/ https://aflcio.org/about-us/history Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:56, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Title

I'm very glad to see the beginnings of an article on this topic, but the title is a bit awkward to me and also out of keeping with WV:Capitalization. How about "History of labor organizing"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:34, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

We can certainly discuss a different title. Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:44, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

I suggested one. Would you like to offer your opinion of it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:18, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Let's maybe get the opinion of someone else as well... To be honest, I don't care much about the name either way and more about the content... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:39, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

We know that the current name is not in keeping with WV:Capitalization. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:57, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

"History of Labor" is a proper noun compound Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:03, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Not on Wikivoyage. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:24, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Why not? Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:40, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

History of justice, Old towns, European history, versus History of the United States, where the U.S. is a proper noun. I would suggest modelling the title after History of justice.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:22, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Alternatively, we see how the article develops and let the content decide on the title. While the Paris commune was certainly deeply embedded in the labour movement, since it was effectively an attempt at a local revolution, it perhaps encompasses a bit more than just labour organisation.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:32, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ The article only "develops" if people add to it. Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:37, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Correct, and as the article's creator, I'm sure you have lots of ideas. Personally, I'm not sure enough of the intended scope to know whether contributions I might make (the militant proletariat monument in Krakow, the People's History Museum in Manchester, the National Coal Mining Museum in Wakefield) are relevant.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:14, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

And the answer to the question "Why not?", when applied to capitalization of phrases, is to simply re-read Wikivoyage:Capitalization. This is not a questionable or recently-decided matter. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:31, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

I asked why "History of Labor" is not a proper noun compound. The way I understand English proper nouns they work basically on the basis of "if the author decides its a proper noun it is". Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:49, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

As for TT's question/statement, as a certain editor likes to point out nobody owns anything around here and if someone gets mad because perfectly serviceable prose is destroyed in some foolish crusade to eliminate certain words the author of the original prose has to apologize and get blocked, not the author of the bowdlerization. But on a serious note, feel free to add what you think might be worth adding, I trust the article won't be worse for it... Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:51, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

This certain editor is doing his best to avoid "passive aggressive sniping" in anyone's direction that you have complained about in the recent past. I would appreciate it if you would avoid it also. Ground Zero (talk) 02:47, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Except for being a title, "history of labor" is not a proper noun at all like "United States of America", but merely a generic phrase. Therefore, as an article title, it would follow Wikivoyage rules on capitalization. Simple as that, and it would be nice if you would stop trying to argue that point. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:42, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

• wow man, too wide a scope, too ambitious a travel topic. In the reign of Ramses III, about 1190 BC, the royal tomb workers of Deir el Medinah went on strike because of insufficient rations delivery, the first one recorded in history. Should this be mentioned? Should Tiberius and Gaius Gracchus be mentioned? Medieval guilds? It's a slippery slope here, IMHO. I also support IK's point about the capitalization matter. Ibaman (talk) 22:17, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Interesting! It's great to have someone here with that much knowledge of ancient labor history. We could also add that slave revolts like the one led by Spartacus and many others would be on topic. Maybe "Modern labor movements" might do it, with "modern" starting around the 18th or 19th century? Still too broad? I think there's a danger of someone trying to conflate every dictatorial self-styled "socialist/communist" party/regime with real labor movements. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:26, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

IMHO, this topic here would best be a big subheading of our Industrial tourism article. A suggestion would be "Memorials to Workers' Movements", or maybe simply "The Workers". Ibaman (talk) 22:30, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

I propose to move this article to Labor history tourism in order to put the focus on adding listings related to travel, rather than being just an referenced version of an encyclopedia article. So far, there are only two sites listed, one of which doesn't even mention the city it's in. If the article doesn't develop into a travel article by the end of this year, I'll nominate it for deletion. An unreferenced summary of labour history from one person's point of view isn't a travel article. Ground Zero (talk) 16:57, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Maybe just Labor history, in line with other history articles like Aviation history. I think we usually don't add "tourism" to article titles unless there's a good reason to. —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:30, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

This discussion still seems unresolved, and in particular, I don't think Ibaman's points have been addressed. What scope do we want this article to cover, and should it be a more general introduction to articles with more specific scopes? I feel like the real scope is "Industrial workers' movements", which by the way could neatly exclude Russian and Chinese communism, which arose in primarily peasant societies and very quickly became a new forms of elitist dictatorship, and the Khmer Rouge, an absolutely dystopic peasant movement. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:53, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

New York City

@Ikan Kekek: Do you by any chance know if there are any events commemorating the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire in New York City? If you do, perhaps you could add some information about them to the listing I added? Also, do you think the Tenement Museum should get a listing? If I recall correctly, that museum is supposed to be showcasing the living conditions of a 19th-century working-class Jewish family. The dog2 (talk) 20:35, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

The Tenement Museum covers the 1860s to the 1930s, and it's not at all restricted to Jewish families. See their "About" page. It's not strictly about labor, though, but more about immigration, so I wouldn't put it here. There is a commemoration of the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire every year. See this site for info. I don't know more than what's on that site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:50, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

French socialists

I know that there were French socialists before Marx, so I'm just mentioning that, but I don't know what travel-related content there would be related to them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:26, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

MLK Jr

Should we mention anything about him. While he is better known for his role in the Civil Rights movement, I understand he was also very much a labour rights activist, and he was actually travelling to speak at a labour rights rally when he was assassinated. The dog2 (talk) 23:14, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Sure, as long as there's a travel angle. For example, he was assassinated in Memphis while supporting in the sanitation workers' strike. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:12, 29 June 2022 (UTC)