Talk:London on foot

"External links" sections

Per Wikivoyage:External links, we don't have "External links" sections, by any name, in articles on this site. The "Other walking websites" and "More information about London" could be really useful, but they clearly violate site guidelines. So what should we do about that? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:29, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Here's one of them:

More information about London

For more information about London, you can visit these following websites and YouTube channels:

• London Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London
• For the history/timeline of London, visit this page.
• For a guide to travelling across London by rail, visit the Transport for London (TfL) and National Rail websites. You can also find a selection of walks of varying lengths and difficulty that are created by TfL by following this link.
• Visit London: https://www.visitlondon.com/
• For news around the London area, visit MyLondon.
• Londonist: https://londonist.com/
• Geoff Marshall runs a YouTube channel with videos not only about London's transport, but also about the UK's railways.

My position would be, for more information about London, read London and Wikivoyage district articles; those articles have links to their counterparts in Wikipedia and their talk pages would seem to me to be the places to argue about whether any of these others pages should be mentioned, though keeping in mind what not to link to. As stated above, we don't use "External links" sections". It's even stated in bold as the second sentence of Wikivoyage:External links: There should be no external links section in any article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:16, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

"More information" is another external links section, and with links that are not in keeping with what not to link to. Does anyone want to argue for exceptions? I think it'll have to go to conform to Wikivoyage:Manual of style. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:24, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

My views is that there should be an exception for "user-created" walks on third-party sites/channels, or links to content on official sites such as local government or civic amenity entities. (Examples would be walks suggested by, TfL,Corporation of London, Canal and River Trust, Chiltern Society, etc). Obviously commercial links should not be permitted.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:20, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

I would suggest for you to make that argument at Wikivoyage talk:External links, because it's an argument for a change in policy, not an exception for particular web pages on this article only. That said, your remarks wouldn't seem to apply to the "More information" section, anyway. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:18, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

YouTube info, moved from article per what not to link to:

• For video versions/instructions of these walks, visit the YouTube channel Railway, London & Maritime Bloke, who is a small YouTuber who creates videos about the railways, the UK's capital London and anything Maritime related. The specific playlist you want for these videos is called London Walks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:01, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Recommendations to use external maps, from article, also moved per what not to link to. Maps should be in the article.

• If you're unsure of where to go, use a suitable map to guide you. Both Open Street Map and Google Maps have good coverage of the Greater London area, and plenty of Londoners still use an "A-Z" map, which is widely available in bookstores. In the countryside around London, the OS Explorer series will also be useful to show you where footpaths are as well as diversions if needed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:03, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Maps

This article is profusely laden with information, which is great but also daunting.

I think that eventually, each walk should have its own map. That's a huge job, but it would make this article much more readable than the current dense black text, and it could potentially make this a star article, or several star articles.

Some examples of itinerary articles with maps are Yaowarat and Phahurat Tour, Along the Magnificent Mile, Loop Art Tour, A seaside stroll in Helsinki and Magome-Tsumago Trail, but I could see the usefulness of having dozens of maps in this article and potentially splitting it into dozens of separate articles or at least several articles that group together walks in particular parts of the city. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:42, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek, Mvdz1998, ShakespeareFan00: I can make track markers if needed, the only thing I need is if you could give the google maps directions below and name of the walk (something like this although this is just a mock up and not the actual path) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 13:44, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

(Also no OSM please, or anything other than Google Maps, otherwise it's hard for me to visualise) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 13:46, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Met line termini - Not sure how close it matches the direction on this site ( Link: https://goo.gl/maps/rPACp7GKKiDBYF9A7 Name: Metropolitain Terminals). I would strongly suggest splitting this walk into Sections.. )

See also - https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=London_on_foot&oldid=4285040 which had links to directions. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:08, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek, ShakespeareFan00: I've got maps with the waypoints for most of the walks in Google maps and some in ViewRanger, so I'd be happy to send them across to whoever knows how to insert maps into Wikivoyage pages. Also regarding splitting the Met link walk into sections, I have mentioned at the top of the page that it's recommended that overnight accommodation is booked for the longer walks, including those between the Tube termini.Mvdz1998

Yeah, about that: We have a bunch of London district articles. I'm having trouble seeing a London walks article as a place to duplicate hotel listings, and I'm not seeing why promoting AirBNB is more appropriate than that. I left the mention of YHA in case there's a specific reason in terms of location to mention them, but it seems questionable to me. But getting back to Google: I'm still not seeing arguments for why we should make exceptions to what not to link to, except that you used Google Maps as a useful tool and it'll be a pain to not use your work, but one of the issues is that Wikivoyage wants the maps to be visible in the article, even though it would still require one click to see full-page views of them. And then there still are the sections of external links. I'd normally move them to this talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:08, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm not planning to insert the google maps into it, but rather go to a GPX converter, using google as a guide. Although there isn't any Google to GPX converter. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:16, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

The format OSM uses is GPX, and the links given elsewhere will explain how to generate those. I'm not aware of a Google to GPX converter, but others here mayb know of one. I don't like relying on a propriatery platform like Google Maps. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:55, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I've done one for the first one, see if that looks good. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:05, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for making the map! It would be great to add the names that are in the article but currently not showing on the map. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:23, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to do that, but I'll eventually work around that. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:41, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Other walking websites

( Moved from content page)

For more ideas of where to walk in London, you can visit these websites and YouTube channels:

• London Walks: https://www.walks.com/
• Cabbie Blogs: https://cabbieblog.com/
• Watched Walker: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_mzz_JnzArhhpGUy8KdGwg
• For cheap, guided tours of London, visit GuruWalk, where you can book a wide selection of walks for free and pay as much or as little as you feel.
• London local Joolz Guides - London History Walks - Travel Films has a selection of bitesized video guides on his website that's also available to watch on YouTube. He can also be hired for private tours as well as for filming and/or promotional uses. To do this, contact him or his team directly on his website.

Moved here per concerns about 'external links' policy. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 16:06, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Page size

Just an FYI, but this is now the 13th most largest mainspace page on Wikivoyage in terms of byte size. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:59, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

I personally think splitting the page would be appropriate, given that some of the walks extend into the suburbs as opposed to being in Central London.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:13, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

I'd suggest the same too, which also doesn't interfere with the maps I've created. @ThunderingTyphoons!:, would you recommend the same? (To me, Woolwich and Greenwich are like completely separate towns and aren't part of London but that is just my views of since visiting London 19 months ago.) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:28, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

I rather think the issues with this article are bigger than just it being too long. Please see below section, as my comments aren't directly relevant to this discussion.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:20, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm confused. Which below section? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 13:23, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

I see, makes sense now. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 14:18, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Issues with this article

Long rant incoming.

First of all, wouldn't many (or even most) of these routes be classed as Personal itineraries if they were presented in an itinerary article? They certainly seem rather arbitrary and not concerned with following walking routes that others (e.g. locals and travellers who know London, people in the tourist industry etc.) would recognise, recommend to friends, or have walked themselves. I also question how pleasant or healthy many of these routes would be to walk, seeing as they tend to follow busy main roads, rather than making use of pedestrianised areas, footpaths, quieter backstreets and parks, as most habitual urban walkers tend towards. I strongly suspect user:Mvdz1998 devised these routes using maps and navigational apps rather than from lived walking experience. There's clearly been some thought behind which sights to link up (stadium a to stadium b, palace x to palace y...) but the specific routes that have been chosen betray a lack of thought for the walking experience.

Let's look at a few examples that illustrate my points: Camden Market to Covent Garden is about 3 miles if you walk directly; if for some reason you decide to travel via lots of other big London markets as suggested by this article, then it'll be 17 miles, along countless busy roads. Why would anyone do that? To choose another example, walking between Heathrow and City airports, entails walking along the A30 and A4 dual carriageways for 7½ miles in outer West London, and then on the other side of London following the A13 (a traffic-choked single-carriageway that graduates into an elevated expressway) for another 3 miles. To use a third example, what's the interest in walking from one end of a specific rail or Tube line to the other, especially when you're not even following the route the tracks take? And looking specifically at the Crossrail walk (83 miles, again almost exclusively along main roads), why would any walking itinerary from Reading to London not lean heavily on the Thames Path, which follows the river between Reading and London? In a similar vein, why would you walk from the Woolwich Ferry to the Golden Hinde along a succession of A roads, instead of along the Thames Path which links the two? As a walker who lives near London, I wouldn't try the vast majority of the suggested routes in this article, nor would I recommend them to visitors from other regions or countries.

Just as a counterpoint to my above negativity, I can see that some of the shorter walks will appeal to travellers. Even if a lot of them have the same issue of mostly following busy roads, the considerations of noise and air pollution are probably less significant over shorter distances and on routes that take in lots of landmarks, as many of the walks under 10 miles do. There are also some gems that don't need much, if any tweaking. For example, walk 1 follows a lovely canal along most of its itinerary; I have done this walk, and would recommend it to anyone visiting London who likes walking.

What would I suggest should be done here? Taking some of the shorter walks that have legs (haha), maybe on some of them tweaking the details so they're less marred by traffic, and then fleshing them out to the extent they can stand as their own itinerary articles. Apart from those few, I'm sorry to say that I'd junk the vast majority of these walks, and start the article again almost from scratch as a general guide to navigating London on foot. There are many things you could cover, from traffic safety to an overview of popular marked trails in the city, and even advice on which Tube stations it is easier to walk between than catching the train.

Do I have the time or inclination to take the lead on implementing these suggestions? If I'm honest, probably not. I have lots of half-finished projects on Wikivoyage already, as well as an offline life. But if someone wanted to take the lead, I'd be happy lend my help both in advice and some editing hours.

Most important for me right now, is just to get down my thoughts, and see what the reactions are from Mvdz1998 and the wider community. I am regretful to be so negative about the efforts of primarily one editor, and particularly someone who's new to the community, but I feel it needs to be said.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:10, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

I think some of the longer walks need to be looked at again, The original contributor did respond when I suggested it would be better to route one walk along the Canal then around non descript suburban streets. On others I was using my memory of the area concerned. Also I am wondering if some of the walks along main road aren't actually feasible. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:00, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

My experience of Walks in London, is also that on may of the major roads, you might not be on that road at all, but a side service lane, which in some locations is not a nice walk at all. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:16, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not sure about the feasibility of e.g. starting at the Dartford Crossing, as the "South London Loop*" does; isn't that on the M25?

*not to be confused with the real London LOOP

--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:04, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Quite. Also Retail parks are 'Boring' places.. I've encountered more than a few in doing walks in London/ Metroland Suburbs ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:09, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

@Mvdz1998: Any thoughts on the above? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:49, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

@ThunderingTyphoons!, ShakespeareFan00: It's been a month and a half now, and so... is there anything I can help to improve this article to conform our personal itineraries policy? (I'd prefer an alternative to just "mass blanking" since I don't want to ruin some a lot of the hard work Mvdz1998 has put in) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:12, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer to be helpful. As stated already I'm not in a position to take a big role in improving this. As far as I'm concerned, most of the walks are not at all suitable and should be deleted. I understand the desire to not spoil someone's hard work, but the hard truth is that the (vast) majority of these walks are too long, too lacking in interest, and too noise/air polluted.

Though I haven't gone through every single one to assess them, my gut feeling is the shorter the walk, the more likely it is to be made useful with more detailed instructions, and that this would be best accomplished by someone who knows the areas and walks in question. See also my paragraph above: "What would I suggest should be done here?..."

--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:08, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

I might consider making some maplines for the shorter ones, although my current situation with my computer isn't great (geojson.io drains my computer really badly). But apart from that, I personally think London LOOP should get its own article, although I might be confusing it with the real London Loop (which you mentioned above) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:13, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

The real London LOOP deserves its own itinerary article, for sure.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:16, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

I know I'm late to this discussion, but ThunderingTyphoons!'s comments above make sense to me, and I support efforts to prune the less interesting walks and flesh out the better ones into their own itinerary articles. An eventual goal could be to turn this article into a sort of index of London walking itineraries with short descriptions of each one and links to the relevant itinerary articles. —Granger (talk · contribs) 06:33, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Also a late comment, but should the subheadings of North London Loop and South London Loop be adjusted to avoid confusion with the real London LOOP? I don't know London well enough to come up with a better name for those two walks. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:46, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

I have nothing else to add really, except that I wish user:Mvdz1998 would acknowledge this discussion, or the ones below it.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:19, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Breadcrumb

This article is currently breadcrumbed under Activities, but I think Walking in the United Kingdom is a better spot to breadcrumb the article. Other opinions? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:53, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Geolines

I am a bit confused on why the geolines were removed in 1 2 and 3. To Mjvdz98, was there any reason why? No edit summaries were given and geoliness help readers identify the route without having to read swathes of text. If no response is given within a week, I will readd them as they were removed for no real good reason. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:18, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Just to let you know that I created all of these walks myself, and so I don’t give you permission to meddle with any waypoints. Mvdz1998 (talk) 18:59, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

You don't have the power on a wiki to tell other people what to do. Whenever you make any edit to a wiki, you give people permission to revert or edit it. If you want editorial control, you need to create a personal blog. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:10, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Two things:

1. this is a wiki, so anything can be edited by anyone as Ikan Kekek mentioned. While you certainly own the copyright to what you wrote, that does not give you permission for you to control the editing of others. In this case, how are adding geolines "meddling" with the route?
2. if you say that you "created all of these walks", doesn't that constitute as a personal itinerary as what ThunderingTyphoons! mentioned above? Please take the time to read Wikivoyage:Itineraries#"Personal" itineraries

I hope I don't come as harsh, but if you want to create a wiki where you have control of everything, you're best hope is to go to Wikia. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:46, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

So, any last minute objections before I restore the geolines? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:15, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Sights and stations

I removed a section from the article as it is not related to walking, but I have pasted it here if it is deemed useful to put somewhere else (that is not the London article, which is overly long). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:49, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

== Major London sights == Whilst walking London, you'll pass through many of the city's tourist areas as well as other iconic buildings and structures further out of the centre. The following table has a list of the most major of these:

Major buildings & structures:	Major stations:
Houses of Parliament:	Paddington
Buckingham Palace	Marylebone
Piccadilly Circus	Euston
Tower of London	St Pancras International
Various skyscrapers in The City/Square Mile & Canary Wharf	King’s Cross
The Shard	Farringdon
Battersea Power station	Liverpool Street
Abbey Road Studios	Fenchurch Street
Thames Barrier	London Bridge
Royal Observatory Greenwich	Cannon Street
Old Royal Naval College	Charing Cross
Greenwich & Woolwich Foot Tunnels	Waterloo & Waterloo East
Boats & Ships:	Victoria
HMS Belfast	Stratford & Stratford International
Cutty Sark	Reading
Golden Hinde	Shenfield
Thames Clippers	Places of worship:
Woolwich Ferry	St. Paul’s Cathedral
Tilbury & Gravesend Ferry	Westminster Abbey
Various passenger & freight ships	Westminster Cathedral
Parks:	Southwark Cathedral
Kensington Gardens & Hyde Park	Various smaller churches
Green Park	Markets:
St James’s Park	Camden Market
Richmond Park	Covent Garden
Regents Park	Smithfield Market
Primrose Hill	Spitalfields Market
Hampstead Heath	Leadenhall Market
Russell Square	Billingsgate Fish Market
Greenwich Park	Borough Market
Victoria Park, Hackney	Transport links & hubs:
Various smaller parks & squares	London Underground
Sports venues:	Docklands Light Railway (DLR)
Wembley stadium	London Overground
Lord’s Cricket Ground	Tramlink
The Oval Cricket Ground	Crossrail/Elizabeth Line
Queen Elizabeth/London 2012 Olympic Park	Crossrail 2 (Proposed)
Concert Venues:	Various train operating companies
Royal Albert Hall (RAH)	Emirates Airline Cable Car
Royal Opera House	Heathrow Airport
Cadogan Hall	London City Airport
Wigmore Hall	Black Cabs/Taxis
Barbican Centre	London buses
Royal Festival Hall	Dockyards & Wharves:
O2 Arena	Canary Wharf
Rivers & Canals:	Royal Docks
River Thames	King George V Docks
River Lea & Lea Navigation	Millwall Inner & Outer Docks
Grand Union Canal	Surrey Quays
Regents Canal	Limehouse Basin
Hertford Union Canal	Tilbury Docks
Palaces:	London Gateway
Buckingham Palace
St James’s Palace
Kensington Palace
Hampton Court
Kew Palace
Eltham Palace

"Accommodation" section

I think this is wholly unneeded, but if we have one at all, it should say "see relevant London district articles for listings", full stop. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:25, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

• Agreed, totally. Done. I have the same feeling about the "transport" section just above it. Ibaman (talk) 17:41, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Removing walks that nobody will attempt

I wholeheartedly agree with the removal of the Battersea to Wembley walk. Now what about some of the other long, arbitrary routes - perhaps starting with those that purport to follow rail and Tube lines from one end of town to another? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:43, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Good to have some confirmation regarding the removal. Should Camden Lock Market to Covent Garden Market also be removed? It's a 27-kilometre walk that I really doubt anyone will take, including Mvdz1998/Mjvdz98, because, who really wants to walk a day just to get between two markets? Even if someone was to take this walk, by the time they complete this walk, the other market they were intending to go to would have closed. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:02, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

And definitely the London Gateway port to Surrey Quays, a 58.9-km walk which realistically, no-one will ever enjoy doing. I've never walked that long before, but I do plan on hiking a trail that's slightly longer than 58 km this summer in Tasmania, if the path isn't covered in snow, but I would never walk that long through an urban city. Looking at the edit history, it seems I commented it out in Special:Diff/4437846, and it was removed by Mjvdz98 in Special:Diff/4440780 but was readded by an IP that is likely Mjvdz98 again in Special:Diff/4441246. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:16, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

You can basically count me for removing most, if not all, of the longer walks. As I wrote extensively above, they clearly weren't "designed" by a walker. Long-distance walks which could be added instead are official ones (which follow footpaths and parks wherever possible, not roads) such as the Thames Path, Lea Valley Walk, London Loop.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:24, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Shall we just delete the whole slab of text in "Long walks (Over 10 miles)" then? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:46, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Done. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:31, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

I would not object to removal of the longer walks. I also would not mind if some of the tube station termin walks were reformulated. (The Met one for example has some sections that are in Zone 9! ) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:36, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Having some Central London - Station to Station routes would be useful though.. For Example Charing Cross to Euston is reasonably straightforawrd, and you pass some interesting sights.

A side note... Does anyone happen to have a list of what the semi-offical "Knowledge" routes for the Central area are? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:36, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't. You want to become a cabbie? :)

Yeah, walks between the termini could be useful, and they should all be under 5 miles. Rather than reformulating the Tube walks, I'd bin them.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:12, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

I was thinking about the "Knowledge" routes because some of them link significant 'landmarks'. Hmm ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:51, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

The Knowledge routes are designed for drivers (much like most of the walks created for this article), so I don't see how that would help for this page.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:04, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and removed all the long walks. I kept and relocated two of the short "Tube line" walks, because they seem realistic. To anyone concerned these removals were overly harsh and quick after starting this topic, Mvdz1998 and their socks have had nearly 10 months to address the points raised under 'Issues with this article', but haven't bothered.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:04, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

This article is looking much better now! Nicely done tt! :-). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:06, 23 June 2022 (UTC)