Talk:Manilla (New South Wales)

@KevRobbAU: Regarding this edit:

1. please assume good faith. My edits improved the article by fixing capitalisation and punctuation errors. Accusing me of vandalism is aggressive and unnecessary.
2. I removed superfluous wording that makes the article dull: "It is advisable to do any necessary banking" conveys the same meaning as "Do your banking", but using more words.
3. Wikivoyage is not a compendium of all factual information about a place. It is a travel guide. Contrary to your edit summary, I did not remove any information about toilets. I removed information about litter bins. I don't know what the New South Wales State Government's intent is, nor does it matter. We are trying to write a lively travel guide here — see wv:tone — not duplicate itemised lists from government websites.

I don't want you get into a pissing match with you. I would rather work with you to improve articles. You can see from my edit history that I work consistently to expand and improve articles in Wikivoyage.

Please take a look at these edits again. But the litter bins really have to go. That isn't information to be included in a lively travel article. Ground Zero (talk) 01:29, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Are litter bins really hard to find in Manilla? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:56, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

@KevRobbAU: is not an adequate response to my post above. If you do not respond to the points I have made, then I will assume that you agree to me restoring my edits. Ground Zero (talk) 02:50, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

KevRobbAU, please give your point of view in this thread. You're the expert on the area, and I'd like to see your response to the points raised here. We normally don't list litter bins, but if the area is so remote that it's really hard to find them, that could be a good reason to list them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:04, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Also, KevRobbAU, if you don't mind, I'll bring up a point that I observed from why you were banned from fr.wikipedia: It was for edit warring without discussion, though they were remarkably quick to permanently ban you. But that said, don't make the same mistake here. We love your fantastic contributions and just want to hear your views and consider them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:14, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

I was banned because I had made a serious grammatical error on the French Wikipedia entry for Barraba. I had originally (and correctly) used the 'Past Anterior' tense where needed, then I was told by source (since proved unreliable) it was the wrong tense and I should have used the Compound Past Tense, and I began changing my article. As it was new, it was picked up by the admins there and I was banned. I haven't bothered yet to appeal the ban as I was working on creating an article for Barraba in another langugue. I most certainly was not blocked for vandalism - if that was my intent, I wouldn't be creating articles in the first place. —The preceding comment was added by KevRobbAU (talk • contribs)

I said you were blocked for edit warring without discussion; I did not say you were blocked for vandalism. Anyway, you're not doing that here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:47, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Could word be put out that when it comes to an entry that's outside of a person's expertise, could they at lease check before just merely deleting? I wouldn't dream of just cutting chunks of information from an entry just because I didn't understand why it was there.

KevRobbAU (talk) 04:55, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

(1) From what I see, Ground Zero edited and didn't delete any listings. (2) That said, put any articles you like on your watchlist by clicking "Watchlist" near the upper right corner. Then, you'll be notified of any edits. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:15, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Following the discussion here and on my talk page, I have tidied capitalisation and punctuation, removed details about litter bins and shelters, and shortened some text, but preserved information about rest areas for drivers including toilets and picnic tables. Ground Zero (talk) 13:46, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

And I have restored the litter bins at the driver rest areas. Why do litter bins at a place on the other side of the world on a road you will never go on bother you so much? Just because you have admin status doesn't mean you can abuse your privileges. If you and Ikan don't want me to create any more entries, just say so. This kind of pedantry and harassment stops people from creating articles as they find the experience unpleasant - I was warned that this happens on Wikivoyage by others. Thank you for the other improvements, but as it says on the Community Portal page, "The traveller comes first" - it doesn't say 'the admin comes first'.

KevRobbAU (talk) 21:22, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

I mean, I don't really care whether litter bins are mentioned or not, but I thought you agreed that it wasn't important to mention them? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:45, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

I didn't say they should be deleted. Anyway, I'm ending the discussion here and I've decided to no longer contribute to Wikivoyage. The way you and GroundZero have handled this is terrible, and it feels like an abuse of privileges. Your questioning me regarding my blocking at the French Wikipedia is downright creepy and totally irrelevant to what I do at Wikivoyage. As far as I'm concerned, Wikivoyage is no longer a safe place for me to contribute - thanks to you two. I have no idea why you want this part of Wikivoyage to be under-developed, but you two have sure gone down that path to make it happen. I've extended an olive branch, but I don't want to co-operate will bullies abusing their powers anymore. Hope you feel good.

KevRobbAU (talk) 22:03, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

@KevRobbAU: from this message on my talk page, I believed that you were not concerned about deleting letters bins, but that "a driver is more concerned with amenities like toilets and picnic tables." I did not delete information about toilets or picnic tables. I accept responsibility for misinterpreting your position on this. I don't think that listing litter bins is needed or appropriate, but I won't delete this information again.

Abusing administrative privileges is a very serious matter. I haven't used my privileges as an administrator in this discussion, so I would appreciate an explanation of how I abused them.

It's up to you whether you want to contribute to Wikivoyage or not, of course. But participating in any collaborative project requires, well, collaborating. I have engaged with you repeatedly to try to resolve this dispute, and am willing to continue to do so. Regards, Ground Zero (talk) 23:42, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

I too have repeatedly tried to resolve this. Let me be blunt - it's all about the travellers and their needs while driving in that region, not the opinion of you, someone thousands of miles away on the other side of the world who has not travelled one inch in that region and hasn't a clue on what a journey is like there. How does your opinion/imagination trump 35 years of experience travelling on those roads there? As far as I am concerned you started an edit war - not me. I advise you to stick to advising for places you actually know about in future.

KevRobbAU (talk) 00:39, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

KevRobbAU, you have been a wonderful content-creator here. I'd be sorry to see you go but of course I respect your right to contribute or not contribute, as you see fit. I'm sorry you feel like it was "creepy" for me to look at your ban at fr.wikipedia - it came up because you were nominated (probably without your knowledge) to be an admin on this site and the fact that you were banned there was mentioned by your nominator. You can see that thread in Wikivoyage:User rights nominations/Archives. Otherwise, I don't see why you feel aggrieved at me, as I was just trying to resolve this edit war to the satisfaction of everyone, so that you could continue contributing, unhindered. I think a lot of the dispute here should be chalked up to misunderstandings, and most of that, probably to not reading tone of voice and facial expressions accurately in this teletype medium. To be clear, I have no beef whatsoever with you and though I don't really understand why mentioning litter bins is so important to you, I don't believe it's worth fighting about and would just give you latitude to continue mentioning them. But I don't think telling people to be concerned with style only in articles about the countries they've personally visited is a winning argument; the better argument, in my humble opinion, is that litter bins shouldn't be the hill to die on. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:44, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't really want to go either. But this is not an issue about litter bins, it's about the heavy-handed and unnecessary way this matter has been handled. As I have explained before, these rest areas are often used by long-distance travellers as overnight stops in order to save money and time while travelling, so it is necessary to know what facilities they have - all of them. I was asked to show good faith, but I have not seen good faith from either of you. If I have put something in, it's in there for a damn good reason, and not for something frivolous and trivial. This could have been an opportunity for both of you to learn something useful about travelling in Australia to share and help other creators, but instead it was taken to a level of pedantry and pettiness by people who have no knowledge on the subject, as far as I'm concerned. My entries have been for the benefit of travellers, tourists, and visitors, not for the approval or benefit of people thousands of miles away who would never go there anyway. The only satisfactory resolution to this whole mess is leave the entries I create alone when it comes, and to trust that I put useful and practical things based on years of experience there solely for the benefit of travellers in that region - only then can I regain the trust that both of you were acting with good intentions. As for the nomination of Administrator, I would have been honoured but I would have declined the position - there is too much work needed on the New England Region that needs someone's full attention to bring it up to an acceptable standard, and I have enough on my plate with translating the Wikipedia entry for Barraba into as many languages as I can (such as Bahasa Melayu, for example), and I have to take care of elderly parents as well.

KevRobbAU (talk) 01:35, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry you think you haven't seen good faith from me. I'd hate to see what bad faith was, then. I agree that it wasn't necessary to have such a long discussion about trash bins, but misunderstandings often happen online, and since you're participating in an online collaborative project, you have to be willing to engage in such discussions and have a thicker skin about them. I'll expect you to call for my head every time I edit a comma of your work, based on your gross overreaction to this thread. My respect to you for caring for your parents; I'm glad you still have them with you. Good day, and that's the last word I'll type to you in this thread. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:56, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

And I'm sorry that you've not taken this opportunity to put all this behind us, to take this as a learning opportunity to be an even better Wikivoyage editor, and to understand that you're not always right. It's not about being thin-skinned, it's about sticking up and fightingfor what is right. My fight is for travellers, not for my personal feelings. Wikivoyage could do with more people like me. I will always leave the opportunity open on my talk page to both of you to start afresh, and for us together to keep making Wikivoyage a better place. Best of luck and good wishes in your future endeavours, always.

KevRobbAU (talk) 02:14, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

KevRobbAU you cannot ask that your work be left untouched in a travel guide that anyone can edit. This is not a personal blog. It is a collaborative project, so your work will be edited, if not by me, then by other people.

We have resolved the litter bin issue. As I wrote above, I will not delete that information again. But no-one can guarantee that no-one else will.

I asked that you assume that I was acting in good faith after you accused me of vandalism. And then you accused me of the same again. Surely we can disagree about what should or should not be included in an article without resorting to accusations of vandalism.

For my part, I wish to apologise for my first edit summary, in which I wrote "Please use some discretion about what information will be useful to travellers". That comment was unnecessary, and I will endeavour to be more careful in my edit summaries. Ground Zero (talk) 02:24, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

That's all you had to say. Of course I expect my entries to be edited - all my articles in Wikipedia in all the languages I write in have been changed in some way, and that is to be expected. None in the manner that happened here though. All I wanted to do was write good stuff and collaborate where I could. From my point of view and response I got, it sure looked like vandalism by a troll to me. I withdraw my accusation unreservedly in light of your comment.

KevRobbAU (talk) 03:07, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. Ground Zero (talk) 03:24, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

@KevRobbAU, if you want to know what bad faith really means, see the edit history is w:Castletroy College SHB2000 (talk) 10:40, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

User:Ikan Kekek is also correct about litter bins, it's very unusual to have writings about bins in a travel article. SHB2000 (talk) 10:42, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Is it necessary to have public toilets here?

Really, public toilets. This is a small town, and finding public toilets should be pretty easy. The main highlight of Manilla is a cemetery, and this just makes the article more dull. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 10:14, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Centrelink

Wikipedia describes Centrelink as

"a Services Australia master program of the Australian Government. It delivers a range of government payments and services for retirees, the unemployed, families, carers, parents, people with disabilities, Indigenous Australians, students, apprentices and people from diverse cultural and linguistic backgrounds, and provides services at times of major change. The majority of Centrelink's services are the disbursement of social security payments."

Is this a service used by travellers in Australia? Ground Zero (talk) 11:16, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

No, that's for Australians only. Not for travellers. Will remove it. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:30, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

@Ground Zero: is the Veterinary Clinic necessary? I mean, what's the chance of a pet becoming sick on a journey. And most Aussie's do not take pets with them. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:33, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

And I also don't know why the post office has to be there. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:44, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree about the vet's. But some travellers still send postcards, or things that they've bought and don't want to carry. Ground Zero (talk) 12:06, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

That's sort of faded out in Australia for about 10 years now. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 12:15, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

My postcard list is mostly friends of my parents, who are too old to see my travel pictures on Facebook. The list is getting shorter though. And there is a friend who asks that I send cards to her children. I don't know if they care about them, but she does. Ground Zero (talk) 12:55, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Do we include public toilets in articles?

Swept in from the pub

I noticed the toilet section in Manilla (New South Wales)#Public toilets. Do we include toilets? Doesn't that just make an article dull? And considering Manilla's highlight is a cemetery, which is dull, wouldn't this make it more dull? I know that Manilla would have been the most controversial article this year, but I have not seen a public toilet section on any other article. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 10:21, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Edit: This was the article with the litter bin dispute, for those that are unaware.

It depends on the article, but they can be good to include, yes. This information may be dull, but it's very useful when you need it. —Granger (talk · contribs) 10:41, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Manilla is a tiny town. It's not hard to find. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 10:45, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

We have directives where to put that type of information in Wikivoyage:Where you can stick it. And dull ... we have Toilets as an article. --FredTC (talk) 10:48, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

To be honest, it makes sense for large towns or cities. But this is just a small one. I'm not against the WV:ABC page, but really? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 10:57, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, you are right. The section "Cope" does not appear in Wikivoyage:Quick small city article template. --FredTC (talk) 11:04, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Just because "Cope" is not an obligatory section of the small city article template doesn't mean it can't be added when appropriate. I don't take a position on toilets, though, except that if they're truly easy to find, there's probably no reason to list them, and if they're not so easy to find and the last toilets within x-number of kilometres, they should be mentioned. It might be, in fact, that the best compromise is to mention that they're the last toilets in x kilometres and not have full listings for them, but I would leave these decisions to the expertise of Australians and anyone else familiar with this area of Australia (and that wouldn't be me). Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:09, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

That's either User:DaGizza or retired User:KevRobbSCO. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:11, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

we know what KevRobb's opinion is. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:11, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

While I appreciate his content, I sometimes think his articles are overly complicated. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:23, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Maybe if it's dull, then you need to consider your writing style.

In the instant case, I'd keep at least the one labeled as being "wheelchair accessible" and the one labeled as having "parking". I think that would be useful information to any person traveling through the town. In particular, the 'patterns' for public toilets are opaque to people from other countries. I could tell you, as an American, that if you're driving across the US, you should expect to find free toilets (also trash cans) at most gas stations, large rest stops, and fast food restaurants with an indoor seating area. I suspect that the pattern is different in other countries. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:22, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Toilets, and litter bins are very easy to find in Australia, and even easier than the US (at least, the west coast). This was done to prevent people pissing in the bush, but unlike Europe, all toilets at servos (gas/fuel stations) are free. And I have not seen a servo or a public toilet without litter bins, making the complete litter bin a few months ago unnecessary. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:00, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

I would concur with WAID, even though public toilets are quite accessible here, for reasons of disability accessibility. It's useful to specifically call out when there are disability accommodations, as disabled travellers can't necessarily expect to find them or have any sort of consistency in where they are, especially in rural areas. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 05:51, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

I have removed all listings of public toilets. They are probably very easy to find and we don't need a travel guide to guide us to one.--JTZegers (talk) 22:44, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. To say, Manilla is probably one our most controversial articles this year. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 00:21, 10 June 2021 (UTC)