Talk:Pennsylvania

I took out the Author section of this article. See Project:first person pronouns for more info. --(WT-en) Evan 12:02, 17 Dec 2003 (PST)

I took out the section "Local Travel Guides", as I don't understand what it means. The Cities and Regions sections point to travel guides for cities and regions of Pennsylvania, respectively. --(WT-en) Evan 17:36, 28 Sep 2004 (EDT)

Region breakdown

Draft regions map

We need some regions for this state; VisitPA (the state tourist site) has this breakdown, and Open Directory has this one. Should we try to put together something similar? --(WT-en) Evan 17:34, 13 Jan 2006 (EST)

Oh yikes! This regions section did not develop well, and the existing regions overlap significantly. I suppose they'll need to be merged/deleted into a sensible breakdown. I'll put up a suggestion map soon, but I don't really know too much about the state & could use help—any locals have suggestions? --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 00:12, 6 March 2008 (EST)

Actually, here's an obscure PA regions breakdown, which I rather like. I'd be tempted to split off portions of the "Endless Mts" and "Susquehanna Valley" to preserve the "Coal Region," but otherwise this looks like a passable breakdown—any thoughts? --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 00:18, 6 March 2008 (EST)

OK, here's a draft regions map. Perhaps the names should change a bit? And I don't like that I've left Lehigh Valley in there, but I don't know what else to do with it. Could it be merged with the Delaware Valley? Any other thoughts on this draft breakdown? --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 00:45, 6 March 2008 (EST)

bump --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 05:06, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

Well, speaking as someone who's been to Eastern PA all of three times, and even then just passing through, my completely uneducated opinion is that the two valleys can be combined. I don't think The Lehigh Valley (Allentown area, I guess) is far enough from Philadelphia to be a separate destination. The only other comment I would have is that the Pittsburgh region looks weighted northwest, given the location of the city; it seems like parts of the neighboring counties south and west would be part of the area. (WT-en) LtPowers 12:16, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

I asked my wife, who's from PA, and she agreed that the Pittsburgh and Vicinity region should include the eastern and southern suburbs outside Allegheny County. (WT-en) LtPowers 15:32, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

So the more I think about it, the more I think VisitPA got it right: . I know we don't usually go with the states' tourism definitions, but I think in this case they've got it pegged. (The names they chose are cheesy, though, and can be changed.) I know Peter liked the Coal Region, but I'm not sure how useful it is to the traveler. (WT-en) LtPowers 09:13, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

Those do look pretty good. They also mean more work in reorganizing the existing regions, but I'll deal with it. I've updated the map, and if the divisions look right, I'll move ahead with this. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 04:29, 11 August 2008 (EDT)

I don't like "Great Lakes Region" (it's a little generic, not clearly Pennsylvanian, and even a bit pretentious for 30 miles of shoreline along Lake Erie), but it's better than "Northwest Pennsylvania" and I don't have a better suggestion. Maybe "Lake Erie Region"? Or even "Erie Region" (since the main city in the area is Erie)? Anyway, I'd be happy to work on reorganizing the regions if you'd rather not. =) (WT-en) LtPowers 08:40, 11 August 2008 (EDT)

Sounds good to me! If you want to start hitting the regions, I'll upload a new png (and an updated svg) in the next couple hours. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 12:52, 11 August 2008 (EDT)

The task is done, at least I think so. Linkage was inconsistent at best, so I may have missed some regions or destinations that were linked to their regions only via the "IsIn" template (such links don't show up in "What links here"). Poconos and Endless Mountains needs some heavy revision; I tried to leave the Coal Region as a subregion, but now the main article reads awkwardly, and some destinations may be missing. Philadelphia Region and Pennsylvania Wilds are stubs. (WT-en) LtPowers 19:46, 11 August 2008 (EDT)

Yeah, the new regions need to get fleshed out (mainly the 9 cities/other destinations sections). If my insomnia keeps up, I'll take a second crack at it tonight. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 20:12, 11 August 2008 (EDT)

Shuylkill Expwy

I removed the joke about calling the Schuylkill expressway the 'sure kill' expressway. Nobody locally calls it that except to mock the non local people that call it that. Also added the part about staying out of the left hand lane. It's always people from NJ and DE going 55 in the left hand lane on highways, arrrrg. --(WT-en) edg126 14:52, 10 Apr 2007 (EST)

Eat Section?

Their is no actual eating listing here its just names of foods. --(WT-en) Norvak 15:14, 23 December 2008 (EST)

That's right; we put listings in articles for cities, not in regional articles. Regional articles should talk about what types of food are available, and only mention specific restuarants if a traveler to the region would definitely not want to miss eating there. See Project:Region article template#Eat for details. (WT-en) LtPowers 15:44, 23 December 2008 (EST)

State College and region borders

VisitPA.com has State College (which is in Centre County, the big one right in the middle of the state) in the Alleghenies and Susquehanna region, but by our definition all of Centre County is in the Pennsylvania Wilds region. VisitPA draws the line between the two regions right through Centre County rather than following the county border. I have no opinion either way, so I'm soliciting others here: in which region should we place State College? (WT-en) LtPowers 11:58, 29 December 2008 (EST)

State College itself is located in the "ridge and valley" section of Pennsylvania on the east side of the Alleghenies. I think it is much more appropriate in the Alleghenies and Susquehanna Valley region. (WT-en) Danwxman 16:23, 4 March 2009 (EST)

9 Cities

Would anyone object to dropping State College in favor of Erie? State College offers nothing for tourists aside from Penn State University. Erie, on the other hand, is one of Pennsylvania's most popular tourist spots. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 19:13, 8 October 2009 (EDT)

Sounds like a good idea to me. (WT-en) LtPowers 20:26, 8 October 2009 (EDT)

I'd sooner drop Williamsport. Penn State gets a ton of visitors from all over the country during football season. We could also consider axing both Gettysburg and Hershey in the cities section and resurrect their main attractions (the battlefield and the theme park) in the OD section—I don't believe that either city/town is very notable for anything other than being next to those attractions. That would help fill out the OD list, and allow us to squeeze in another PA city (Altoona? Bethlehem? York?). But in any rate, I agree that Erie should be in the list. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 20:33, 8 October 2009 (EDT)

I must have been in the process of removing State College while you wrote this. I have no problem with dropping Williamsport. Gettysburg is so historical, I don't think it should be cut. I do like Hershey, but I would be willing to drop it. If Hershey were moved out, what do you think about Lancaster? I haven't been there, but it's quite famous as a destination for those interested in the Amish. Since Pennsylvania itself is well known for being home of the Amish, perhaps adding Lancaster would showcase the broader spectrum of Pennsylvania "culture"? (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 20:55, 8 October 2009 (EDT)

I dunno about Williamsport. If we're just looking at numbers, sure, the Nittany Lions outdraw Little League. But lots of places have big college football stadiums; Williamsport is at least unique in its singular attraction. I would support moving Gettysburg to the Other Destinations section, but not Hershey. (WT-en) LtPowers 11:49, 9 October 2009 (EDT)

I've moved Hershey and Gettysburg to OD to show what my intent was. But since we obviously don't have consensus for that change, please feel free to revert.

Lancaster strikes me as a good addition. And LtPowers, why not move Hershey? As a census-designated place of 12,000, I think it's hardly an important urban destination in its own right. Heck, I'm pretty sure I stayed in Lebanon when I went to the park—I never even entered Hershey the town. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 18:40, 9 October 2009 (EDT)

It had never crossed my mind to link to the page from the attraction (Hersheypark) rather than the city, but I think it looks good! Certainly Hersheypark is the only reason why Hershey is an important Pennsylvania destination. I had just assumed you were going to move Gettysburg and Hershey as they were, but I think the list represents Pennsyvlania much better now! (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 23:57, 9 October 2009 (EDT)

Hershey also has probably the most celebrated and most successful AHL team, as much as it pains me as a Rochesterian to say that. =) That's the main reason I'm reluctant to say that the theme park is the only thing there. (Also, I believe Hersheypark and Hershey's Chocolate World are technically two separate attractions.) There's also the "wording test" that has been mentioned before: does someone say "I'm going to Hersheypark" or "I'm going to Hershey"? In my experience, it's the latter. (WT-en) LtPowers 16:43, 10 October 2009 (EDT)

Therein lies the disagreement. My experience is the opposite—I've never even heard of someone visiting Hershey in any other context than "I'm going to Hersheypark," but of course I'm not actually from the area. But mostly I like this solution as it helps us fill out the OD list a bit more, and allows other cities like Williamsport and Lancaster a place in the lists. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 17:41, 10 October 2009 (EDT)

Yeah, it's really borderline. When one says "I'm going to Hershey" most people will assume one is going to go to the amusement park and to Chocolate World. I guess I'm okay with the philosophy as stated, although couldn't the same apply to State College? Anyway, it'd be nice to have some native Pennsylvanians weigh in. (WT-en) LtPowers 22:09, 10 October 2009 (EDT)

I'm actually a "native". lol. Most people I know say "Hershey", but as you've stated, it is synonymous with Hershey Park. I've never heard anyone mention going to Hershey for any other reason (I didn't)... As for State College, it is similar. The only reason people go there is to see the games or attend college. They have a well known ice cream shop, too, but I don't think many people go all the way there just for that. I don't think State College would be missed if dropped. The other proposed places (York, Altoona, Bethlehem) are not bad choices. But concerning the move of Hershey and Gettysburg, I don't imagine it being a big deal for other Pennsylvanians. It doesn't mean that there is nothing to see in the city; it just highlights the most popular and widely known attraction. I think it works in allowing us to feature more cities, as Peter states. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 22:36, 10 October 2009 (EDT)

OK, after talking with my wife, who's from PA, I'm more strongly of the opinion that Hershey belongs in the Cities section, probably in place of State College. If we want to talk about destinations with only one thing to do, it's Happy Valley, not Hershey, that we should be talking about. The only reason for non-students to go to State College is to go to Beaver Stadium for a game, whereas Hershey has the amusement park, Chocolate World, the Milton Hershey museum, Hotel Hershey (with its spa featuring chocolate treatments), Hershey Bears hockey, and a zoo. I agree it's not a lot, but it's a lot more than State College has. (WT-en) LtPowers 19:45, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

Either way works for me. Replacing State College is a good move, though. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 20:25, 13 October 2009 (EDT)

Fireworks

This is my first-ever wiki edit of any kind, so please check it over...

I made 2 spelling corrections and updated the fireworks part of the "Stay Safe" section. PA laws are kinda funny about fireworks and that part had erroneous information. (WT-en) VideoGuy 06:15 21 July 2010

Looks good! (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 23:13, 23 July 2010 (EDT)

Other Destinations

I'm tempted to replace Lehigh Valley with Thousand Islands; the latter seems like more of a tourist destination to me. Thoughts? (WT-en) LtPowers 15:20, 20 January 2011 (EST)

Thousand Islands is in New York, so I don't think it deserves any mention in the Pennsylvania article. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 16:53, 20 January 2011 (EST)

Yeah, I thought I put this on Talk:Mid-Atlantic. Not sure how I ended up here. (WT-en) LtPowers 08:59, 21 January 2011 (EST)

Does Raccoon Creek State Park deserve a place in the "Other Destinations" list over other state parks? I'd like to either drop it or start a page for it. Nathant408 (talk) 00:39, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Do we have any other state parks with articles? LtPowers (talk) 01:56, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Valley of Fire State Park came to mind first, but I'm sure there are others. Just a matter of how large the park is, and whether it's overwhelmingly day-use only. --Peter ^Talk 06:46, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, yes, I meant in Pennsylvania -- that is, one that we could replace the redlinked Raccoon Creek with. LtPowers (talk) 19:53, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Williamsport

For some reason Williamsport isPartOf Alleghenies and Susquehanna Valley, but according to our state map, it should be in Pennsylvania Wilds. VisitPA.com, on which our regional breakdown was based, agrees. Powers ^(talk) 21:08, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I've moved it to Pennsylvania Wilds now. -- Ryan • (talk) • 23:21, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

The original author of the A&SV article (which was then just Susquehanna Valley) used a very expansive definition, even including Harrisburg and Hershey, which are firmly in the Dutch Country region. Williamsburg likewise slipped through when I renamed the region to include the Alleghenies. Unfortunately, much of the prose in that article was written with the assumption that Williamsburg and Harrisburg were the two major population centers in the region, which renders much of that text useless. Powers ^(talk) 14:11, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Needed work

Pennsylvania is a state I like, though my visits so far have been mostly limited to Philadelphia, with a couple of stays in Harrisburg and some travel through Northeastern Pennsylvania (however, I figure to visit Pittsburgh in January). I was unhappy with the absence of images other than the pagebanner, so I added several, but others who know all the nooks and crannies of the state better than I might want to select some other ones (for example, I looked at images of Gettysburg, and it looks like a nice town but I wasn't sure what to add and didn't add anything from there). I was surprised that there was no "Sleep" section: I think that's needed in an article about a state. I put a photo of a classic Pittsburgh hotel in that section and added some general remarks, but would someone who knows better please give a good general overview of accommodations in Pennsylvania? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:23, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

For Gettysburg pictures, how about https://www.flickr.com/photos/22711505@N05/7673334480 or https://www.flickr.com/photos/22711505@N05/7119539701 ? Powers ^(talk) 01:42, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Very nice, both of them but especially the 2nd one. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:53, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

I've never uploaded a photo from Flickr to Commons. I tried following the guidelines at Commons' instructions on uploading Flickr files, and I got the following error message: "The file you uploaded seems to be empty." Do you know how to do this? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:26, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Which tool did you try to use? Powers ^(talk) 18:17, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Flinfo. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:21, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Hm, it seems to be working okay for me. Maybe your download of the file didn't work properly. Powers ^(talk) 00:24, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I tried to transfer the file without first downloading it onto my computer. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:11, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Ah, Flinfo can't do that, AFAIK. You can use one of the other tools, but Magnus' tool requires an authorization process (so that it can upload using your account), while the Upload Wizard requires you to be an admin or image-reviewer. I'm an admin, so I can just use the Upload Wizard. Powers ^(talk) 02:48, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

You're an admin on Commons? Excellent, and thank you! Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:26, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

I wasn't actually volunteering, though I can do it if you'd like. Powers ^(talk) 01:36, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

It would improve the article if we could put a good photo of the battlefield site at Gettysburg on it, so yeah, it would be great if you could do this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:56, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

File:Gettysburg National Military Park 2012 - Union General Gouverneur Warren on Little Round Top.jpg. I would recommend you apply on Commons for reviewer status; it's simple and allows you to upload images from Flickr without them being tagged for review by a trusted editor. Powers ^(talk) 03:00, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much, Powers. I'm not sure about applying for reviewer status because it commits me to spending some time reviewing licenses, and I'm not sure whether I want to commit to that at this time. I'll definitely think it over, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:27, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't know if it actually requires such a commitment. If you were honest about mainly using it to upload pre-reviewed images you might be fine. Still, your decision. Powers ^(talk) 15:01, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Banner contest

Candidate 0: Amish buggy in Clinton County. Current banner. Used for Amish and Mennonites.

Candidate 1: Cumberland Valley.

Candidate 2: State Capitol, Harrisburg. Used for Pennsylvania.

Candidate 3: Juniata River.

Candidate 4: Luzerne County, Coal Region. Used for Coal Region.

Candidate 5: Rockville Bridge, Dauphin County and Perry County.

Farmers Southern Market, Lancaster. Previously used for Pennsylvania Dutch Country.

The current banner would be great for the Amish and Mennonites article. Here are some new banners, which can also be considered for their local destination articles. /Yvwv (talk) 02:22, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

I prefer 4 and 2. The scene of 1 isn't really unique to Pennsylvania, and so is three and 0 looks somewhat boring. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:27, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

2, 5 and 4. Current banner is not bad, but the article about Amish has a bad banner, and could benefit from getting the current banner (0) from this page. 1 could look like any place on Earth, and 3 also don't like it.--Onwa (talk) 05:11, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Picked banner 5 provisionally, and used banner 0 for Amish and Mennonites. My personal favorite as it contains the state's greatest river, typical natural scenery, and industrial heritage. /Yvwv (talk) 09:38, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

My preferences are: 0, 2, 4, 3, 1, 5. They're all good, but 0 is so clear. And while Amish people are not unique to Pennsylvania, the state is well known for them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:07, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

See Talk:Coal Region for another contest. /Yvwv (talk) 10:09, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

... and Talk:Niagara Falls#Banner reshuffling, concerning the many articles related to the Falls. /Yvwv (talk) 11:27, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Do note that #5 is last on my list for the banner candidates for this article, so I don't see how it gets even a preliminary consensus of any kind. It seems to me, with #2 having one 1st-place vote and two 2nd-place votes, it wins for now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:26, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Point taken. I used #2 for Pennsylvania Dutch Country to replace a clearly inferior banner. Those banners are switched now. /Yvwv (talk) 14:56, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

What's wrong with Candidate 0 for Pennsylvania Dutch Country? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:25, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

It was a close-up of a building that is neither unique or world famous. Can be considered for Lancaster County, as well. /Yvwv (talk) 10:58, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

But it captures a scene that's more typical of Amish life, right? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:48, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Here is the previous banner for Pennsylvania Dutch Country. In my opinion it gives undue promotion of a specific business. /Yvwv (talk) 09:40, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

I understand your point of view on this, yes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:45, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

I still prefer 0. All of the others are dull to me. The landscapes are very generic, and the state capitol is not at all iconic. Harrisburg may be the capital, but nobody thinks of it when they think of PA, especially in terms of travel. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 05:51, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

I've been to Harrisburg a couple of times and consider the Capitol beautiful, but I agree that it's far from being the major tourist draw in a state with Philadelphia, Pittsburgh and Northeastern Pennsylvania. However, we could really do a lot worse. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:40, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

All banner replacements are provisional. Could we find a new great banner specifically for Amish and Mennonites? /Yvwv (talk) 10:50, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Listings

We need to not have templated listings at the state level. If you have the time and inclination, please help remove them, leaving summaries with links to the appropriate city (or park, whatever) bottom-level articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:10, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

PA regions discussion 2022

Was "Lehigh Valley"

[Discussion moved from User talk:ThunderingTyphoons!]

The Lehigh Valley is not part of the Philadelphia region, which is defined as the Delaware Valley and includes many counties in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, and even Maryland but none in the Lehigh Valley. I'd be curious what leads you to think otherwise. Let me know why you feel it should not be presented in that way. Keystone18 (talk) 18:19, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

If you don't mind my commenting: I don't think it is, either, but regional structure isn't changed unilaterally. Please state your case at Talk:Philadelphia Region#Allentown in the Philadelphia region, where you'll see I already attempted to start a discussion. We need for it to play out before taking any action related to Pennsylvania regions, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:29, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

(ironic edit conflict) Hi Keystone18. Categories here don't work like on Wikipedia where you can group articles by multiple themes (e.g. an article about a song can be in a genre category, an artist category, a year category etc). On Wikivoyage, categories are dictated by the geographical hierarchy we use to organise articles. The Lehigh Valley article is currently organised under Philadelphia Region, which is organised under Pennsylvania, which is under Mid-Atlantic, and so on. That means category:Lehigh Valley has to be organised the same way, part of category:Philadelphia Region, which is part of category:Pennsylvania, etc...

I have no opinion on the "correct" place in the hierarchy for Lehigh Valley (subtext: I don't really care. I do care that this site works the way it's supposed to, however). As a local, you have a much better idea than I do, and perhaps you can persuade people it should be changed. But I think Ikan Kekek already explained to you that if the LV article was changed to cover the whole region across state borders, it would have to be moved out of the hierarchy and become an extrahierarchical region, because the hierarchy used for US articles is organised around the state system. That generally works well, but it makes things awkward for cross-border towns and regions.

Coming here from Wikipedia in 2013, I remember thinking the "breadcrumb" geographical hierarchy of articles was very strange, so I appreciate it will take some getting used to for you.

Please go ahead and propose any changes you think should be made to the hierarchy around LV; I won't try to push back. Just know that the categories will only be changed if the article hierarchy changes. All the best --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:44, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't know much about Pennsylvania, but I will note that our definition of "Philadephia Region" includes the Delaware Valley, Lehigh Valley and Berks County. If "Philadelphia Region" is confusing terminology, then maybe we can find a better name for it. Would "Greater Philadelphia Region" work better? Or maybe "Southeastern Pennsylvania"? Ground Zero (talk) 21:56, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

The Lehigh Valley is more central eastern than southeastern, so I'm not sure. What do you think, Keystone18? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:20, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

If the structure is rigid according to source materials like the Census, etc., it is a stand-alone region that should be included under Pennsylvania. That's what I would suggest. To list it under Philadelphia when it is not part of that region (the Delaware Valley) seems to be recreating the geographic facts. Whatever is done, though, should be consistent. Keystone18 (talk) 23:53, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

The structure is not rigid, nor is the census necessarily relevant; it should be whatever is most useful to travelers and to readers, and to change it, we need to have a discussion on a talk page that's not a user talk page and come to agreement. I might be persuadable that the Lehigh Valley could stand alone as a region, but I'm not sure whether I would be. Maybe Talk:Pennsylvania is the best place to discuss this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:58, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

I'd list the Lehigh Valley as a stand alone category within "Regions" on the Pennsylvania page and remove it as a category within the Philadelphia region. Keystone18 (talk) 00:43, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Our regional breakdown is very close to the one used by the PA Visitors Network. Instead of "Philadelphia Region", it has "Philadelphia—Lehigh Valley", which does not include Berks Co. Berks is included in Dutch Country. And Schuylkill is included in Poconos and Mountains instead of Susquehanna Valley. The map I linked is a tourism map, not a census map, so it is much more relevant to the work we are doing here. Wikivoyage is a travel guide, not an encyclopedia, and we should always remember that. Ground Zero (talk) 00:56, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Could we do that renaming from "Philadelphia Region" to "Philadelphia—Lehigh Valley"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:38, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

We include Berks County in that, whereas PA Visitors puts in in Dutch Country, but I'll leave it to the local experts to decide if that's okay. We would need the assistance of someone who can draw maps if we make any chances to the region structure or nomenclature. Ground Zero (talk) 02:08, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

@Ground Zero, Keystone18, Ikan Kekek, ThunderingTyphoons!: I can help with the maps (both static and dynamic maps) if needed, though I'll be a bit busy in the next month or two (I usually need 2-3 hours to make one without any interruptions). Unfortunately, I can't really help with the region boundaries itself as I've never been to Pennsylvania before, but I'll be able to make a map if you give me the wikidata items for each region (see New South Wales or Southeastern New South Wales as examples). I don't really like the layout of the current static map so I might redo the map from scratch when I get to it. Give me a ping once the region boundaries have been sorted out. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:47, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't have an opinion about Berks County, except that it redirects to Reading (Pennsylvania), which is almost half way from Philadelphia to Harrisburg (slightly closer to Philly). I've never visited Reading and haven't even ridden the train through it, as the train doesn't serve that city. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:52, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

@Ground Zero, Keystone18, Ikan Kekek, ThunderingTyphoons!: So, what should we do?

1. Should we just rename "Philadelphia Region" as "Philadelphia—Lehigh Valley"? or
2. Should we do that and move Berks County (Reading) to Dutch Country? or
3. Do something else?

Option 1 is the easiest, but that may not be the right answer. Ground Zero (talk) 18:48, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

We could do both 1 and 2, thus following the official tourist information website. "Moving Berks County" is really just rerouting a redirect.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:58, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Not quite, as the regions map would also have to be edited. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:16, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

My proposal was make Lehigh Valley its own stand-alone region within Pennsylvania and then to include all Lehigh and Northampton County cities and towns in Lehigh Valley. Keystone18 (talk) 03:06, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Coal Region, which is already a page, should also be a sub category in Pennsylvania and include Carbon, Lackawanna, Luzerne, Northumberland, and Schuylkill Counties. Keystone18 (talk) 03:11, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Do you mean a subregion? It already is, and there is no such thing as a subcategory on Wikivoyage, to my knowledge. Just eyeballing the current regions of the state, if the Lehigh Valley were a region by itself, it would be by far the smallest region in the state, but I think you want to make it larger, so why don't you make a map and show us how you propose to divide the state. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:19, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

These are the regions (what I called a sub category) that exist currently under Pennsylvania:

Alleghenies and Susquehanna Valley

Erie Region

Pennsylvania Dutch Country

Pennsylvania Wilds

Philadelphia Region

Pittsburgh Region

Poconos and Endless Mountains

What I'm suggesting it that the Lehigh Valley be removed from Philadelphia and Coal Region be removed from Poconos and both be added as individual categories with the seven above (making nine in total). Perhaps there are other regions beyond these nine. But the Lehigh Valley is not part of the Philadelphia Region and the Coal Region is not part of the Poconos. Including them as such is really only confusing a reader about the state's geographic regions. Keystone18 (talk) 19:41, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

I see. Yeah, that makes some sense to me, but does it leave other regions disproportionately large in area, and is that a problem or not? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:03, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Generally we prefer to keep lists of regions to 7 items plus or minus 2, i.e., between 5 and 9. We have 7 now. If we add Lehigh Valley and Coal Region, we'd be at the maximum 9. Unless there is a good reason why Pennsylvania should be an exception to this rule, we should consider which 9 would be the most relevant to travellers, and then keep other as subregions of these regions. Ground Zero (talk) 21:11, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Right, but if having 10 or 11 regions instead of 9 would be of more use to travelers, that would be worth considering. Anyway, let's see how Keystone18 reacts to my questions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:05, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

This is a big picture question that probably needs to be addressed throughout the site. My best input on it: 1. It needs to be accurate. If, for instance, the Coal Region is not part of the Poconos (which it isn't), it should not be listed as part of it. Yet such examples exist in abundance through the site. I suggest using the geographic definitions of Wikipedia, especially since these two projects are connected. Here is how they divide Pennsylvania: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_Pennsylvania. I also would solve this issue sooner rather than later. As time-consuming as its resolution might be now, it will be more so months or years from now. I'll keep thinking about it too and share any better ideas that come to mind. One non-starter: Wikivoyage should not be making up these geographic divisions. Find a definitive source (if not Wikipedia, something else) and then stick to it religiously. Keystone18 (talk) 20:09, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

A couple of reactions: (1) Wikipedia has four regions for Pennsylvania. (2) It has 15 subregions, and we are never going to have 15 top-level regions for Pennsylvania. (3) We are not going to follow Wikipedia all the time, because an encyclopedia is not set up according to the principle that the traveler comes first. So can you please clarify how many regions you are suggesting we have and what your traveler-centered reasons are for the division you propose to use here? Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:48, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I saw those four regions for Pennsylvania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_Pennsylvania) and that would be one option, which means following Wikipedia's geographic definitions to these regions for states (and other countries). Nothing to wrong with that in my view. If there is a better external source than Wikipedia, as there may be, use that as the defining source. My one strong view is that these regions should not just be thrown into categories because they look close enough by estimate and are not formally defined as being part of them. The good news is that these definitions already formally exist and do not require any subjective assessment by Wikivoyage, as was done on Pennsylvania when regions were just thrown into areas because they were the closest available option but were not technically part of those regions. My view: Find a standard source that is reliable and functional for Wikivoyage and then stick to it. Just don't allow these things to be inaccurately defined. Hope this is helpful. I feel sometimes like I'm raising difficult policy questions, and I really just want to be helpful here :). Thanks! Keystone18 (talk) 19:51, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

I am going to repost what I wrote on July 23:

Our regional breakdown is very close to the one used by the PA Visitors Network. Instead of "Philadelphia Region", it has "Philadelphia—Lehigh Valley", which does not include Berks Co. Berks is included in Dutch Country. And Schuylkill is included in Poconos and Mountains instead of Susquehanna Valley. The map I linked is a tourism map, not a census map, so it is much more relevant to the work we are doing here. Wikivoyage is a travel guide, not an encyclopedia, and we should always remember that. Ground Zero (talk) 00:56, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Aside from the minor differences, this is a better external source than Wikipedia, and is very definitely not "regions... just thrown into categories because they look close enough by estimate".

If there is a better tourism source available than PA Visitors Network, we could look at that. I haven't found any. Ground Zero (talk) 20:16, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Lehigh Valley is not part of the Philadelphia region. Coal Region is not part of the Poconos. And I have stumbled across many other inaccuracies. The critical reader who sees these regions not even properly categorized in the right geographic regions is going to either not read much further, or if they do they are going to do so viewing the entire article skeptically. It's not close when one source has Philadelphia-Lehigh Valley (accurate) and the other places the Lehigh Valley in the Philadelphia region (inaccurate). There is literally nothing comparable about those two things. One has it right. This here has it wrong. These things aren't really subjective, and people don't view them as subjective. There are formal definitions. Sometimes they may vary modestly but a definitive source needs to be picked and followed. It's not a travel guide when the region someone is researching is placed literally in the wrong geographic region. At that point, it becomes literally misleading. Seems to me this is one of a few foundational facts that needs to be taken seriously if the site itself is to be taken seriously. Not trying to be confrontational, but I could not feel more strongly that there needs to be an accurate defining source identified and followed. Keystone18 (talk) 22:50, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Let me amend my response. I think the two issues that raised this to begin with would be solved if: Philadelphia was changed to Philadelphia-Lehigh Valley and not sure what to propose on Coal Region. Poconos-Northeast Pennsylvania might solve it without having three entries, like Poconos-Endless Mountains-Coal Region. Hope this is helpful. Keystone18 (talk) 23:24, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

One additional question/observation: Most of these pages include taxi cab information. With Uber, etc., the world has moved beyond that, hasn't it? I doubt many of these are even open today. Keystone18 (talk) 02:02, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

If the taxi companies no longer exist, please delete them. But as for your other points, the name "Philadelphia-Lehigh Valley" makes clear that it is a combination of two regions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:02, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

I listed differences between our regions and the PA Visitors Network regions in my July 23 post:

"Instead of "Philadelphia Region", it has "Philadelphia—Lehigh Valley", which does not include Berks Co. Berks is included in Dutch Country. And Schuylkill is included in Poconos and Mountains instead of Susquehanna Valley."

And then I proposed changes that would bring our regions in line with the PA Visitirs Network regions.

I will ask again if there is a better tourism source available than the PA Visitors Network. If there isn't, then I think we should align with that map and move on. Ground Zero (talk) 12:01, 14 August 2022 (UTC)