Talk:Rail travel in Germany

Heads up, changes coming

While it is as of now only a set of announcements, there will be changes in the price structure, the network and the service in the years to come, starting in 2016. One of the things is Wifi for free in second class, another is discount tickets (starting at 19€) available even shorter prior to departure. To keep this article and all other articles that mention rail travel in or through Germany up to date, we should keep our eyes open. Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:45, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

ICE Portal

I took an ICE today and found a new feature that Deutsche Bahn is currently implementing: you can now access a set of news articles and travel related content while in the train via WiFi without connecting to the Internet at large. Offering movies and the like (similar to airplanes) is planned for the future. As of now the offer is only available in "some" trains, though. Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:23, 7 November 2015 (UTC) Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:23, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

The last section of this article

It looks a bit uninspired and is not particularly well written or informative. It also seems to imply that railway enthusiasts have a particular affinity towards steam rather than high speed rail. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:08, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

To guide and Featured Travel Topic

Paging Ikan Ypsi and User:AndreCarrotflower as they tend to be among the more active users on the DotM discussion pages. What do you think should be done for this article to be considered guide level and ready to be featured? Luckily I know a bit about the topic at hand and for the foreseeable future will be ale to do ground level research, so if there are any questions as to content, please ask away. Formatting and pictures are not my strong suits, but I hope we can work that out as well. If you think someone else might be interested in this discussion, please page them. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:17, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Can't come to think of anything offhand, except one or two of the many photos at the bottom could maybe be moved up to somewhere where there are no photos visible.

Another thing, if the Indian trains are up on the Main Page in upcoming December, it will probably take a year (Dec 2017) before this one could be up at earliest, but given that articles are featured when they are "weatherwise" more suitable this one would be impounded on the nominations page until Apr or May 2018. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:42, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I would venture to say that this article is already at Guide status. As for future Main Page coverage, I'd suggest using our previous FTT, Rail travel in the United States, as a guidepost for anything that may need to be added to the article to really give it that final spit-shine - with the caveat that those two things may not be completely analogous in every way; most obviously to me, intercity rail in the United States is basically equated to Amtrak for the purposes of that article, while Rail travel in Germany discusses several levels of service including intercity, interregional, intra-regional, and S-Bahnen. Still, I think the most glaring thing that Rail travel in the United States contains and its German counterpart lacks is a list of different routes and the cities they serve - of course in Germany's case such a list might quickly become unwieldy if every little rinkydink regional or local train network is included, but I'd at least provide a detailed breakdown for the ICE, IC and EC routes.

Of course, you have more expertise on the German rail network than I do, so don't treat my suggestions above as an all-inclusive list - if there's anything else you can think of that the traveller might want to know before taking the train in Germany, please don't hesitate to include it.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:48, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

There is a map of the ICE routes. IC routes (and EC routes are often subsumed in them even though the rolling stock of ECs often comes from non-DB railroads at least in part) are a bit trickier as they get less attention and are currently limited to once every two hours. The thing is; Amtrak routes are basically political decisions of the federal government, with all the inertia that implies. Long distance routes do not usually get cancelled or started from scratch willy-nilly. Even a reroute usually takes some time, unless it is catastrophe related (the Sunset Limited East of New Orleans comes to mind). In Germany, ICE and IC routes are - technically speaking - "business decisions" of the "private company" DB Fernverkehr. Of course DB Fernverkehr is owned by the federal government and routing is indeed subject to political pressure, but if for some reason the Berlin-Dresden train has to be rerouted for a handful of months, they simply do it and don't have to wait for approval from Berlin. Similarly, following the privatization and reorganization (the old Deutsche Bundesbahn was one giant blob with no difference in accounting between regional and long distance trains) the Interregios of the old style which were "local" trains in their stopping pattern and "long distance" trains in the distance they covered (e.g. an eight hour trip from Dresden to Oberstdorf) were almost all abandoned or truncated without replacement because it is next to impossible to make them pencil out financially under the current system. Instead the states are now obligated to pay for similar services that usually stop at or close to state lines. Of course Wikipedia does have lists of the ICE and IC lines and I could copy them here, but they are a bit unwieldy and would largely transport the information of "most major cities (400 000+) have an ICE coming their way at least hourly". In the US, such a statement could not be made even about daily trains. EC, like night trains have taken some hit from the introduction of high speed rail, but unlike night trains they were mostly replaced by new cross border HSR instead of abandoned, so most EC that still exist have at least one end of the line in Poland or the Czech Republic with some going further to e.g. Hungary.

On another note, I am not sure whether I do the reputation of DB justice. On the one hand, complaining about DB is a favorite pastime of most Germans (emphatically not me), but on the other hand virtually all foreigners I have talked to admire and envy the German train system as fast, efficient, affordable and something they would love to have in their own countries. I am of course biased, because I like trains, but I hope I am fairly reporting on this and we might even expand on common complaints many Germans have of DB. One that is somewhat justified is that the price system is a bit complicated, but I do hope the current prose breaks it down nicely. The photo thing Ypsi mentioned is indeed an issue and I do not quite know how to resolve it. There is also the issue of the link tot he German page on "sehenswerte Eisenbahnen" which I am not to sure about what to do with. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:51, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

New entrant(s) into the market December 2016

So besides those already mentioned (ÖBB and others taking over night and auto trains) , there is apparently another new entrant that announced service for 2017 which will start with the schedule change of December 2016. The name is Locomore an their first route appears to be via Berlin and Stuttgart with more planned but not yet 100% guaranteed to be forthcoming. This should be updated accordingly by December at the latest. Similarly the language should be changed from future to present by December. Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:39, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

SEO edits

Apparently this article was spun out from the Germany#By train2 section some time after the migration, so it has no counterpart on the advertising hellhole, but there is still roughly 20% of wordings that coincide with the equivalent section over there. I think before featuring we should strive to reduce that number. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:17, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Tilting trains

Should the comparative lack of tilting trains - especially compared to Italy or the Czech Republic - be mentioned? Hobbitschuster (talk) 09:00, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

The relevance of this information doesn't exactly jump out at me, but then again this is an article for train enthusiasts so I guess why not? :) --Andrewssi2 (talk) 09:20, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Tilting trains are (in)famous for causing motion sickness in some people. In Germany there was only ever a handful of experiments with tilting trains in IC (E) service, which ran into technical problems, but in the Czech Republic or Italy the highest category of train may well be tilting. In Germany there's only a handful of tilting trains on local and regional services and they aren't labeled or advertised in any special way. Which makes it slightly Hardee to avoid them; but there's usually no train alternative that doesn't tilt on those routes anyway.... Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:07, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

I was unaware that tilting trains made people sick (I thought all trains could cause motion sickness?). If this is a serious concern for Germans then by all means add it. Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:03, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Oh the issues with tilting trains are quite well-known. Have a look here for how the Brits monumentally botched and bungled it. Modern tilting trains are said to have the problem less and when there were still tilting trains on the Dresden Nuremberg route I never got sick on them, but the movement is quite notable when one walks around in the train. Elderly people might have problems with that...Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:15, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Special tickets structure

Hi, the "Special Tickets" section contains level 5 headings, which are undistinguishable from level 4 headings. This might be confusing to the reader. What would be a better structure that avoids using level 5 headings? Xsobev (talk) 01:06, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Berlin - Munich: Four hours

Swept in from the pub

December 2017 is fast approaching. When that date is reached, travel time between Germany's capital and southern Germany's largest city will be drastically reduced to just four hours. From Nuremberg, Berlin will be less than three hours away. Erfurt will have ICEs going in all directions. I know we have several articles mentioning the "soon to come" service - often with a date - when should we just say it's there now? Oh, and on a related note, should we have routeboxes for ICE Sprinter? Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:53, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

No, because it's not there now. The change should be made when the new service actually starts. Imagine if we had changed article based on the projected opening time for the new Berlin airport... Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:51, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

The schedule has already been published and you can already book a ticket. And there very much is a physical rail line between those cities. Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:32, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

I know that you can take the ICE between Berlin and Munich: I've done it a few times. But we shouldn't pretend that the time for travel between the two cities is already 4 hours. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:38, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

But you can already book tickets for dates past December 10 when travel time is that. Of course it would theoretically be possible that every single one of those trains be delayed two hours, but the scheduled time is what it is. And Deutsche Bahn is not Ryanair who cancel flights if they fear they might be late. Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:41, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

If so, I think we can say that travel time is expected to be four hours after December 10th, but we shouldn't say that travel time is four hours now if that isn't true. If a reader looks at our article today to plan a trip next week, it would be a serious disservice for us to tell them that a service is available now when it actually won't be available for a month and a half. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:05, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Mx. Granger and I are in total agreement. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:09, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Ok, but we have to keep it in mind, as many, many articles mention the line and it kind of is a big deal... The line passes through Nuremberg, Leipzig, Erfurt, Halle and of course the states of Thüringen, Saxony and so on... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:27, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't think it's a problem mentioning it in the article now, provided the date when the faster schedule becomes available is also mentioned. ϒpsilon (talk) 14:37, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

December 10, 2017. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:25, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Paragraph in "Standard tickets" section

Hi, this paragraph doesn't really make sense in the context of the rest of the section. Does anyone understand what it wants to tell us, or what additional information it provides that is not yet on the page?:

Regional train tickets are point-to-point, with the destination printed on the ticket. They are valid on only  trains (but in North Rhine-Westphalia, they are also on certain other means of public transport), although for long-distance tickets, you may have the option to add on a local transport ticket at your destination for a few euro extra. If you have a BahnCard this is usually included (indicated by + City below the departure and/or destination city).

Xsobev (talk) 17:15, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

What ever it wants to say, I am pretty sure it is not accurate. Regional tickets in particular are often valid on buses as well as trains. Maybe it says that this is not usually the case outside Verkehrsverbünde but it is to garbled to make anything out... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:49, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

I removed it for now, as we both seem to agree that it's not very helpful/accurate.Xsobev (talk) 14:06, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

New offers

This article (in German) talks of new "trains which also transport automobiles" service. Maybe it should be added to the article. Furthermore, there seems to be some movement on the night train front with some new or changed routes... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:20, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

History of air-rail alliances

These sentences under Rail travel in Germany#Cooperation with airlines may be of historical interest and therefore appropriate in Wikipedia, but what help do they provide to travellers? Should they be deleted?

"Lufthansa has cooperated with DB in one form or another since the 1980s. For a time they even ran their own trains, rented from DB and complete with Lufthansa livery."

Ground Zero (talk) 00:50, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I really don't understand the need to excise every bit if background information. Compare this to rail travel in the Netherlands which gives rundowns on history and rolling stock. Here we don't even mention the Adler or Leipzig-Dresden; arguably an oversight. As for the concrete benefit for travelers of including this information; that seems obvious: a service that has existed for decades has the inertia of "always done this way" on its side way more than a service only introduced a few years ago. Hobbitschuster (talk) 05:53, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, rail travel in the Netherlands is even worse. The question bus why we want an encyclopedia article is a travel guide. If there were no Wikipedia, there would be an argument for including stuff that would be of primary interest to railway history buffs. But there is, so why don't we focus on being a travel guide? (And my question was about those two sentences, not about excising "every bit of background information". This isn't the 'worst proposal in the history of the universe'.) Ground Zero (talk) 08:05, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Wouldn't one expect an article about "rail travel in x" to (also) cater to railway buffs at least to an extent? Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:38, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia can do a much better job of that than we can. A good travel guide should provide the information that a broad audience of travellers is looking for. Ground Zero (talk) 21:18, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

rising tickets

"it is advisable to book so early as there are next to no last minute offers and pre-booked tickets rise in price on a "first come first served" basis" I'm struggling to understand what this extremely long sentence means. -"no last minute offfers" -> what might they look like, if they did exist here? -what is a "pre-booked" ticket in this context? Is it a ticket bought well in advance and not on the platform at the last minute? -"rise in price on a "first come first served" basis" ->does this mean the earlier you buy a ticket, the more likely it is to be cheap? Griffindd (talk) 11:25, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

I didn't write that sentence, but I tried to clarify that section as far as I understood it (see Special:Diff/3594673). Does this make more sense?

However, I'm not sure if the following sentence is quite correct: "However, most Germans don't book more than one week ahead, with the possible exception of international tickets." Xsobev (talk) 09:25, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

imho it's much clearer now. Thank you.Griffindd (talk) 09:41, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Happy to help :) Xsobev (talk) 09:45, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

does anyone know what this is doing in the seat reservation section?

"That means with an Interrail or Eurail pass you can use domestic ICE trains (including Sprinter ICE trains, but not international ICE trains) without paying a supplement." Griffindd (talk) 11:18, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

update when the time comes

https://www.zugreiseblog.de/autozug-duesseldorf-muenchen/ (link in German) Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:18, 7 September 2018 (UTC)