Talk:Winter driving

Gallery

Meeting a snow plow.

Snowdrift; road marked with sticks.

A spade is useful.

I think the present image, showing normal winter driving conditions in Finland, is good as main image. As images should be sparingly used on Wikivoyage it might be good to link to a gallery page on Commons with examples on more severe conditions and special situations. I do not know how to best link to such a page and have not created it, but here are some examples of images that could be used.

--LPfi (talk) 07:58, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Gallery created on commons, please add good photos. --Erik den yngre (talk) 20:25, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

4x4

I slightly changed info on choosing vehicle. It is not accurate to say that 4x4 is always preferable in winter. While four wheel drive gives better friction uphill and during acceleration, it does not allow higher speed around bends (a common misconception). 4x4 often creates a false sense of safety, and in Norway 4x4 in fact have more accidents than front wheel drive cars. On public roads in Norway, Sweden and Finland there is really no need for 4x4. Regards --Erik den yngre (talk) 15:25, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Winter tires

The paragraph about winter tires now reads:

Studded snow tires are good for winter driving conditions, ... If you live in an area where it doesn't normally snow, it's probably not worth the time and expense.

Is this good advice? Coming to Finland in the winter without winter tires, you should park your car in the harbour and leave it there until you return. You cannot drive on highways with tire chains, but you have to survive any snowy or icy spots. I suppose the advice was written for areas where there may be snow some days, but most roads are dry. Should it be rewritten in some way or removed? --LPfi (talk) 08:38, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

It needs rewrite. In Northern Europe I always change to winter tire from about November until March (depending on weather and exact location). In some countries if you have an accident in the winder and do not have winter tires it is you fault and the insurance will not pay anything (this includes supplied hire cars). I remember a few year ago taking my car (which had winter tyres) to England where they are not commonly used. A little snow and I was the only vehicle confidently driving about. Was great, had car parks all to myself :-) . --Traveler100 (talk) 10:37, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I have modified slightly. Please have look, perhaps needs more detail. --Erik den yngre (talk) 12:51, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

I did some rewriting too, and removed the sentence in question. I think that either one uses winter tyres or then one doesn't drive. Buying winter tyres is of course quite a big expense, but one can use taxi, hire a car with proper tyres, hire the tires or find some other solution. Preparing for winter condition but using only summer tyres is foolish to say the least. --LPfi (talk) 10:05, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

It needs an image like this to drive the point home. I added the best one I could find on Commons, but it could certainly be improved. Pashley (talk) 16:58, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Brush

I removed some details on different snow. I think anyone will quickly notice which part of the scraper to use, and both scraper and brush are needed in most temperatures, the scraper as ice will form when a vehicle cools down regardless of temperature, the brush to remove the remnants also when it is not needed for snow. If you feel there is a need for more details, feel free to add them though. --LPfi (talk) 10:07, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I put it in because brought up with just below freezing soggy icy snow. Until I came across really cold powder snow I did not understand the benefits of a brush. The article is surly for those not used to winter driving. --Traveler100 (talk) 11:34, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

OK. The problem is probably that things either feel self evident or mysterious. We need those unused to winter driving to point out what should be explained better. Somebody that got aha! experiences is probably the best editor - like you in this case, it seems. --LPfi (talk) 08:20, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Winter vs snow tires + chains

In Norway (and I guess Finland and Sweden too) there is no distinction between "winter" and "snow" tires. The key distinction is between studded and un-studded winter tires. Public roads are maintained to allow easy driving with unstudded winter tires, although some very rare and extreme icy conditions only studded tires (or chains) are sufficient. Some drivers bring chains or "snow socks" (synthetic alternative to chains) for emergency. Driving in the Nordic area without nordic type winter tires is not recommended (and may be illegal if such tires are needed). --Erik den yngre (talk) 18:00, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, in Finland there are basically two types of winter tires; studded and "friction" tires (un-studded). Between the first of December and the last of February drivers are required by law to have winter tires (studded or not, they should be at least marked "M+S"). Studded tires are allowed between the first of November and the Tuesday after Easter (yeah, it is a quite weird law), but they are also legal if the "road conditions demand the use of winter tires". If you are driving with the wrong kind of tires you will get fined and probably you'll even need to have your car towed away. Snow chains and "bags" do exist but they are not that common. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:50, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Tuesday after Easter as latest date is not as weird as it sounds: Easter is quite a long holiday (some even take all week off) with optimal skiing weather in Lapland, probably the busiest time at ski resorts. People going there should leave their winter tyres on until they are back home. Locals will get by with the "road conditions" clause, but having southerners drive crowded highways with summer tyres would cause catastrophes every few years, when conditions happen to turn bad. --LPfi (talk) 08:41, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Norway has the same rule - studded tires are allowed until Sunday after Easter (one week from Easter Sunday) or if road conditions demand. Winter tires should have a minimum of 3 mm tread depth (compared to 1,6 mm for summer tires). To my knowledge american type M+S are not suitable for nordic winter driving. Continental European winter tire quality may also not suitable icy roads. --Erik den yngre (talk) 09:51, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Note: The legal requirement in Norway is 3 mm during winter (November to end of Easter) no matter the type of tire. Summer tires should not be used when there is ice or snow. So in Norway winter tires are not strictly required in winter, only in winter conditions. Perhaps Sweden, Finland and other northern countries have similar rules? --Erik den yngre (talk) 18:57, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Also note: The 5 mm tread depth requirement (Norway) is only for heavy vehicles (3500 kg or more), usually trucks or buses, but some motorhomes (RVs) may be classified as heavy vehicles. Heavy vehicles must always bring chains during winter. --Erik den yngre (talk) 19:02, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Usable?

I think the article is not an outline. Should the template be updated to usable? --LPfi (talk) 11:17, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Agree. Certainly more than an outline. --Erik den yngre (talk) 18:53, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

You're right, I went ahead and changed the status to usable, which it is at least, per Wikivoyage:Travel topic status. Feel free to upgrade articles when you think they match the Wikivoyage:Article status policy. JuliasTravels (talk) 19:56, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Featured travel topic

Don't you think Winter driving would make a good featured travel topic for example for November or December? Right now it's too early to put it up for nomination, but it's nevertheless good to keep it in mind. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:59, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

I like the suggestion. On the TripAdvisor forums, we are constantly trying to educate Australians and folks from the southern U.S. on the hazards of long winter drives in Canada. Country Wife (talk) 21:00, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Good idea. Perhaps we should adopt it as a project until early October, read carefully and revise/expand where needed. --Erik den yngre (talk) 14:41, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Guide?

Articles should be at least at Guide status to be eligible to be featured. A guide travel topic "Effectively covers most aspects of the topic with no obvious omissions. If practical, it should contain a listing of relevant destinations. The format should closely match the manual of style.". Do you think there's anything important missing from the article?

I would also like to ask User:AndreCarrotflower (who's mostly involved in the DotM/OtBP/FTT process and presumably familiar with serious winter conditions) to have a look at the article if there's something we've forgot to mention. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:53, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

I'll peruse the article more thoroughly later when I have time, but after a cursory look I predict that I'll have no problem supporting Guide status for it. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:43, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Great! There's still half a year left before it gets to be featured... ϒpsilon (talk) 17:51, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

LPfi? Erik? Kommer ni på något som fattas innan vi kan uppgradera artikeln till guide?

Country Wife? Do you come to think of anything important missing or could we upgrade the article to guide according to the above criteria? ϒpsilon (talk) 17:17, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

The article is now really solid and specific, but I still get the impression that in terms of volume the emphasis is on challenges in remote, unpopulated areas, such as getting stuck in cold or rough weather. In my opinion (based on experience) number 1 challenge is however to control the vehicle on ice/snow/slush. Foreign visitors to Norway often worry about getting stuck on closed roads, but in Norway that is mostly a matter of navigation (finding an alternative route). My experience is that overseas visitors are not really aware that many roads in Norway (and Sweden, Finland) are covered in ice and snow most of the winter, and having the skills to drive on snow/ice is key. So I think we should keep that in mind, not to let that key point be overshadowed by other aspects of winter driving. --Erik den yngre (talk) 18:16, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Looks like repetition of the same themes and a lot of external links also are things that need to be fixed. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:28, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

"In case of emergency" section

The advice in this section is all about if you are snowbound (stuck) in your vehicle. Perhaps the title should be changed to "If you are snowbound in your vehicle"? Also, I really don't like the advice - which has been there since at least 2006 - about "if you must leave your vehicle..." Leaving your vehicle is a really dangerous and stupid thing to do. A vehicle provides shelter from the wind, even if there is no heat source. It is an easy search target because it is large and will always be on or next to some kind of road. A person on foot is much harder to find, may stray off the road, and may fall victim to hypothermia. Hypothermia affects people's judgement. This is not likely to end well. The general advice for ALL persons who are lost and/or in a survival situation is to stay put and wait for search and rescue to find you. It's much harder to find a moving target.

If you have a source of water, most people can survive for a month without food. So not having food is not a good reason to leave your vehicle.

Not all snow conditions will allow you to make a snow cave. Where I live, the snow is usually extremely dry, and would simply collapse into a snow pit. Trying to dig out a snow cave could make you sweat, and sweat kills.

The "early morning hours" recommendation also makes no sense to me, as the early morning is the coldest part of most winter days.

The Government of Canada recommends staying with your car. So does the State of Minneapolis. I would like to remove the point about "if you must leave your car..." entirely, and strengthen the cautions against leaving your car instead, perhaps using some of the points that I have made above, as well as repeating the importance of having a winter survival kit in your car, and the importance of letting people know where you are going, your route, and expected arrival time. Travel plans should always be left with someone who loves (or at least cares for) you.

I'd love to see some feedback. Thanks!--Country Wife (talk) 17:16, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

I perfectly agree about leaving the car. Staying in the car is the best advice, much easier to keep warm and provides shelter from the wind. There is no point making a snow cave if you have an intact car. Avoid getting wet is key to keeping warm. But I did not understand the point about "early morning". Regards --Erik den yngre (talk) 19:52, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

"Leave the car only in the morning hours after sunrise when it's not snowing or foggy, and then only for one hour each way." The warmest part of the day is in the afternoon, not the morning. "After sunrise" suggests early morning to me, at least. --Country Wife (talk) 21:25, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Obviously one should stay home if the weather is expected to get real bad, and especially not use small and desolate roads. I remember a few years back reading about a couple going offroading with their 4x4 vehicle in the mountains of Oregon in order to get a Christmas tree and they had to be rescued...

That said, yes, you certainly are going to be better off in your car. ϒpsilon (talk) 21:16, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback, Erik den yngre and ϒpsilon.--Country Wife (talk) 21:25, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps better delete that comment about early morning. It's not a good advice, and not really clear what is meant. Advice can not be too detailed, for instance leaving the car to walk 100 meters to the nearest house is of course no problem except in the most extreme cases. --Erik den yngre (talk) 11:57, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Okay, the old content is now gone. --Country Wife (talk) 20:24, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

My dad was a Canadian cop (RCMP). His advice was definitely to stay with the car; officers under his command had had to deal with more than one frozen corpse of people who thought something like walking a couple of miles to town was a good idea. Pashley (talk) 17:05, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Long lists

Lists of things to bring etc are now getting really good and complete, but they tend to get a bit long. Perhaps we should try to add more structure and priority to the longest lists, for instance some items are essential for all winter driving, others only for really remote areas. --Erik den yngre (talk) 19:56, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

I like this idea. I'd be in favour of trying to pare down or split the list, I'll have a look and see what might work. --Country Wife (talk) 21:27, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Definitely; getting stuck on a beltway around a city doesn't really require a full forest survival kit. :) ϒpsilon (talk) 21:32, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Forest? Try the bare plains of Western Canada with no trees to slow down the 60-100km/h wind gusts. But seriously, I've made some changes and tried to shorten the entries, what do you guys think?--Country Wife (talk) 20:18, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Nice work! Let us continue thinking about how to make advice specific to circumstances (for instance lowland vs highland, Nordic countries vs central Europe, etc). --Erik den yngre (talk) 12:51, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

ABS and North America

The article says vehicles for Europa and Asia have ABS but (after yesterday's grammar fixes) not those made in USA and Canada. I think this should be for USA and Canada (do European cars imported from USA lack ABS?). Or is it only American cars made for the American market that lack ABS? As I do not know I am not correcting it, but somebody should check. --LPfi (talk) 06:28, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Subcompact?

This advice appears odd to me: "The same rule applies to two-wheel-drive vehicles: A subcompact is better for snowy conditions than a mid-size or luxury car." Please help clarify! --Erik den yngre (talk) 19:31, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

If you get off the road or get stuck in snow, the smaller the car, the easier to push it back or out on the road. As this is a common situation (I help a few drivers most winters, just walking to work), having something a size you can handle sounds as sensible advice. --LPfi (talk) 17:44, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Agree, but the text is currently not clear, I think should be changed to reflect the reason. Smaller cars have smaller wheels that easier get stuck in deep snow. --Erik den yngre (talk) 17:57, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Also, I am not sure how widely "subcompact" will be understood. I think it is a North American term going back to the days when a "full size" car was roughly the size of the Queen Mary and "compact" only slightly less. I'm not sure either people too young to remember that era or people from other parts of the world will recognise the term. Better to just say "small car", and to discuss both the advantages -- easier to push or tow -- and disadvantages -- less ground clearance & smaller wheels. Pashley (talk) 19:04, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Smaller cars are not just easier to push back on the road. The smaller the mass, the less force is required to make the body (in this case, car) change speed or direction. A large limo moving forward has more kinetic energy than a small car. On the downside, a small car does indeed have smaller wheels and less clearance.

Of course, when there's a lot of "whipped cream" on the roads, nothing beats a real 4WD especially if going uphill. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:30, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Pashley changed the "subcompact" sentence to: "The same rule applies to two-wheel-drive vehicles: A small car is better for snowy conditions than a mid-size or luxury car." Smaller cars are easier to maneuver and to push back on the road, but have smaller wheels and less clearance. So the net advantage of a smaller car may depend on conditions. From my home area, where sudden heavy snowfall is the main issue, bigger cars are generally better. Perhaps remove the point? --Erik den yngre (talk) 20:42, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Had accident

I was driving in Russian Far East today when for the first time in my life, I had car accident. It was snowing and car get out of my control on a hairpin turn. Fortunately, I was alone in the vehicle with seats belt on so luckily had no injury. The car has not damaged much but I learnt a few things that I would like to share here so that the information could be added here.

Usually on snowy roads, its better to not use break but gear otherwise car will go out of control. Second, if car gets overturned, better to switch off engine immediately, open car hood and get out of car immediately. Opening up the door facing sky could be difficult but can be opened. In my case, this was all new for me, so when car get slip, rather than changing gear, I put all my efforts on breaks which worsen the situation and car get overturned. Anyways, the car was insured so I don't have to worry about paying car repairing expenses. But today I realised, how important it is to wear seat belts. --Saqib (talk) 14:10, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Also would like to share just yesterday I overspeed and I was stopped by police. They told me 50$ is fine but then then agreed to take 1,000 RUB as bribe. --Saqib (talk) 14:22, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Saqib, I'm glad you're OK. Please drive safely! Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:03, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Whoa! That could've ended really bad, especially if the car would've landed on its roof. Thankfully nothing happened to you! I know very well how awfully scary it is in the winter when you suddenly go from driver to passenger. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:40, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Ups! It's so good to read you're fine, Saqib. Take care! Danapit (talk) 18:39, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Using gear instead of breaks is important on winter slippery roads. Modern cars with ABS can often handle this. In winter it is kind of counterintuitive, but of better to press clutch pedale and try to counteract the skidding motion. Perhaps we should include these points in article? Erik den yngre (talk) 19:04, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

YPSI: You're right. It really could have ended really really bad. It was only two way road (between Ussuriysk and Vladivostok) without any barrier in middle of the road. I could have hitten vehicles coming from front had I not landed down the ditch. --Saqib (talk) 05:00, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

All wheel drive

Surprised that the section on choosing the right car does not mention all-wheel-drive vehicles, which are hugely popular where I live in Alaska, in particular Subarus and Toyotas. It’s a convenient model for people who don’t want to mess with switching in and out of 4WD but would like to able to drive in winter. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:40, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

What is all-wheel-drive? As cars use to have four wheels, it sounds equivalent to four-wheel-drive. Is it a trademark for some 4WD variant? 4WD is indeed mentioned, as the first bullet, in the section Choosing the right vehicle. In that bullet it is also told that 4WD does not seem to give better safety in normal driving, so turning it on only in some circumstances does seem quite sensible, not like a huge mess. The specific setup you are talking about is probably handy in some areas, but I suppose it is not a widely understood term, so you'd need to explain it. --LPfi (talk) 16:27, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

All -wheel, as it is generally understood, is not the same thing as 4WD. The Subaru Outback and Toyota Rav4 are examples of fairly common vehicles that have it as a standard feature, in the US anyway. It is a computerized system in which the vehicle is able to distribute power to any of the four wheels as it deems necessary. Rarely does that mean all four wheels are powered at once, most of the time only two wheels are getting power, but which two is determined situationally by the "brain box" of the vehicle. Some vehicles equipped with it, such as the Rav4, have an option to turn this off and use "real" 4WD in the event you get stuck or are in extremely slippery conditions. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:40, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

The main difference is between a permanently engaged (four) wheels (typically Subaru) and "intelligent" systems where back wheels are engaged when the computer thinks it is needed. In the third variant you can manually engage back wheels to get power on all four; on tractors with four wheel traction you can engage front wheels manually at will. There are various names for "intelligent" systems like 4WD, AWD, 4motion, Quatro etc., trade marks or just abbreviations used by car makers. It is well established that there are more accidents with such cars than with simple, old school 2WD NRK. There is a psychological explanation for this: With traction on all four slippery conditions are camouflaged, the driver does not get the right feedback from the road surface. Breaking and turning does not improve with traction on all four. ESP however is good for safety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control --Erik den yngre (talk) 17:36, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Randomly remembered this conversation today, added some content on this and other conditions and situations. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:37, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Running the engine

The advice on being stranded in a remote location (previously Stranded in a vehicle) says you should:

• Run the engine for only 5–15 minutes each hour, with the heater up to the max. Even if you have a full tank of fuel (always advisable - as the extra weight improves rear wheel traction), you want to make it last for as long as possible.

I suppose this is for keeping the car warm. If you have a cabin heater, such as many (most?) cars in Finland, I suppose you should just use the heater. I don't know whether the same once-an-hour tactic is the best for them. And I don't see why the once in an hour strategy was chosen, so that you get warm every now or then, or does the car remain adequately warm that long? In what outdoor temperatures and wind conditions?

Then I wonder about the battery: is 5–15 minutes enough to compensate for the electricity needed for starting the engine? Also for electricity you use for other things? Does the battery get charged with the engine idling?

I think we should have a little more of an explanation, to allow travellers to evaluate the advice in respect to their situation.

–LPfi (talk) 11:41, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Agree. This advice is not convincing to me. Starting the engine frequently and running for only 10 minutes will kill the battery, particularly in cold weather. Engine/cabin heater like Webasto is better, but also drains the battery and creates possibly dangerous gasses. A full thank of gas can last for many days if you run the engine 30 minutes every second hour or so. --Erik den yngre (talk) 15:31, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Well running the engine idle does charge the battery, but very little compared to driving. Starting and turning off the engine again and again when it's cold outside is pretty much a recipe for emptying the battery. --Ypsilon (talk) 16:27, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Exactly. In coldest areas in Northern Norway it is quite common to leave the engine running while in shops etc to avoid frequent starts. I think the most important advice is to stay in the car and to bring warm clothes on trips in deep winter. Erik den yngre (talk) 10:49, 2 June 2021 (UTC)