Template talk:Station

Possibility of a bot to do the following?

Swept in from the pub

Now we recently introduced a nifty feature (not yet available for all cities) that gives us stuff like this or  U3  this. However, it is a pain in the lower backside to manually replace all the mentions of "take line U2 to station xyz" or "served by line abc". Can we have a bot to do at least some of that replacing? Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:47, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Now this would be helpful. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:13, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

One annoyance I have noticed on desktop, is that the {{rint}} templates we're talking about seem to interfere with the listing editor somehow; when a listing has a rint template, you can't seem to enter the listing editor by clicking the 'edit' button. Is there something that could be done about this? In general, I think a move towards using more pictorial symbols would be a good thing (perhaps something to revisit later?), but if we could get these rint symbols off the ground in a way that doesn't reduce our current functionality, that would be a great start. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:26, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

@ThunderingTyphoons!:I don't think that that's a problem to do with RINT, but instead with Template:Marker and Template:Listing. The first is used for listings places in sentences, while the latter is for lists. I've added RINT to Vlaardingen, Hoek van Holland and Maassluis as well as several other articles. All of them still have the "Updated: Mar 2018 | edit" at the end aside from the markers, which are the only types of listings that use RINT. Template:Marker is simply made to fit in a sentence and only list relevant info and not have a tail with the last update or an edit button in there. Its context needs to read like a proper sentence, whereas Template:Listing is made to be in a formatted list, where it is alright to have that tail at the end. If this isn't the case, then could you show some examples? Neither RINT nor Station should include anything that messes up listings. Wauteurz (talk) 17:54, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

So are you saying that RINT isn't supposed to work in full listings? If so, that's disappointing, as it is naturally suited to the directions field where there's public transport information. As for examples, just try to click on any of the listings with a RINT template on London/Bloomsbury. The 'edit' and 'last updated' are displayed, but clicking on 'edit' doesn't open up the listing editor. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:27, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Actually, I think I've found the problem. By removing the {{station}} template, it is now possible to open the listing editor. Now, I wonder if it's the station template that is at fault, or whether it was the template within a template within a template that the system doesn't like. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:42, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

RINT is supposed to work in both Listings and Markers, as is Station. I was under the naive assumption that you were expecting Marker listings to have an edit link, which they do not. I did however try to tell you that RINT and Station both should not be the problem as neither of them should contain anything that conflicts with Marker and/or Listing. I've done some tests on Listing in combination with RINT, Station and all related things I could think of and the results are... inconclusive:

• Listings with Template:Station did not open in the editor.
• Listings with part of or the entirety of Template:Station's source code worked.
• Listings with templates as part of or as the entirety of their titles or directions worked.
• Listings with HTML elements used in Template:Station worked.

I'm starting to think that the problem is in Template:Listing or worse, in Kartographer ^{(Or my tests are just crap)}. I have no knowledge about Kartographer, so I'm affraid my helpfulness ends here.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 19:43, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

I had the same problem, IMO it's caused by using a template within template (rint within station) - putting just station or rint into the listing doesn't cause a problem. Maybe something that is already fixed in de version of listing editor, so I'd wait for User:RolandUnger also here :) Andree.sk (talk) 19:59, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

That was my take on it. To be honest, I don't see any need to use the station template. It doesn't seem to do anything except highlight the name of the station in quite an ugly box, and you can use the rint template without it. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:13, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

We can always discuss Station. Working on a travel guide, it's always nice to have some readers, and a bit of visual appeal can't do much harm. I for one would be in favour of changing the looks of the template.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 20:38, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

The motivation behind station was basically what exactly this topic is about :) If we do the formatting manually, there's no way to easily change the style globally later (e.g. to something else than the ugly gray box :) ). Everyone will decide by their own whether to put metro line symbols before or after the name, or whether to use some box around the station name. The only problem is the impossibility to use listing editor... Perhaps we could improve rint to allow station name and multiple icons (thus replace station+rint with this more featurefull thing). Andree.sk (talk) 09:08, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

@Hobbitschuster: As a little heads-up: I'd refrain from automating this for at least a week or two. I'm currently working on a stand-alone version of RINT ^{(one that does not require us to copy tens of templates from enWP by using Commons and Template:Routebox entry where possible)}, which might mess up some things if the existing RINT template is already well integrated. I'm putting as much of my available free time into developing and finalising that version as possible, just to have it ready ASAP.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 17:54, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Okay no problem. And thanks for investing so much of your time. As a sidenote, does the template work with screen readers for blind people? I don't know how to check that, but it would be sad if we put in arbitrary barriers for the visually impaired where there's no need. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:32, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

I have screen-reading software. From the very limited trials I just performed with this comment in mind, the London Underground coloured roundels are ignored (no text to read), and when I mouse over them it gives the name of the linked Wikipedia article, with the unfortunate inclusion of the "W:", e.g. "Doubleyou. Piccadilly line", or "Doubleyou. Northern line (London Underground)." The German ones you've used on this thread give mixed results. U3 it reads fine as part of the sentence, but it ignores U55 when reading. When I mouse over the U55 symbol, it says "Berlin U55 SVG", and when I mouse over U3, nothing happens. So unfortunately it looks like such templates may cause issues with screen readers. Something to bear in mind. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:50, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

I'd say a bot could be possible, but it would likely leave half of articles unconverted - so it would look bad... Perhaps some make-use-of-rint-a-thon (where editors would sweep after a bot does most of the initial work) could be done, though.... Andree.sk (talk) 20:02, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

As I already noted elsewhere the Listing editor cannot handle nested templates as is was done with the combination of {{station}} and {{rint}}. This problem cannot be solved (quickly) because there is nobody who can do it. I think {{station}} should not be used. Both templates should not be used in the name parameter of the {{marker}} template, too. That's why it makes no sense to start a bot for replacement. Instead of that you should rethink the usage of both templates. --RolandUnger (talk) 09:34, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Roland that we should rethink. Even if {{station}} weren't ugly, I wouldn't see the point of it. Why highlight the station name over any other element of the listing? If rint is used, then the symbols should attract the eyes' attention by themselves. Now if the template had any sort of useful function, I might view it differently, but since it doesn't, it's just adding clutter, creating extra work, and messing up our listings editor. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:11, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

For now, I'll probably try to find some way to use {{station}} together with new {{rint}}, probably with Wauteurz - since right now only us two are doing something regarding this topic :) After it's fixed, the listing editor should work again, and we can talk about how to style the stuff. My main goal is - if we are going to use {{rint}} along station names, it should be definitely visible on the dynamic maps. I wouldn't have invented {{station}} if it weren't for e.g. this, in the end... As I wrote above, without something like {{station}}, I'm sure well eventually see a mess like this:

• The main bus station for international buses in Prague is 1  B  C Florenc, located east of the city centre. Other, less frequently used bus stations are at  A Dejvická,  B Černý most...
• 2 Stadtmitte  U2 .   / 3 Französische Straße  U6 .   — For Gendarmenmarkt and Friedrichstraße.
• 4  U1  U2  U3 Wittenbergplatz.  
• The stations of biggest interests are 5 Tierpark  U5  and 6 S-Bahn station Lichtenberg  S5  S7  S75  U5 . You can also use the long distance/regional trains, but departures are less frequent than for the S-Bahn.  S75  also goes to Hohenschönhausen.
• The main entry point for Kreuzberg 61 is 7 Mehringdamm ( U6  U7 ).
• 1 Catedral de la Almudena (Opera  2  5  R ). Daily 09:00-20:30. This massive cathedral faces the Palacio Real. Finished near the end of 20th century in the Neo-Gothic style, it is where the Princes of Asturias Felipe and Letizia were married in 2004. Especially noteworthy are the 5,000-pipe organ, a large painted 15th-century Gothic altarpiece, and the empty 12th-century coffin of Madrid's patron saint, Isidro. €1 (requested donation). (updated Jan 2017)

Compare with (unified style):

• The main bus station for international buses in Prague is 8 Florenc , located east of the city centre. Other, less frequently used bus stations are at Dejvická , Černý most ...
• 9 Stadtmitte    / 10 Französische Straße    — For Gendarmenmarkt and Friedrichstraße.
• 11 Wittenbergplatz .  
• The stations of biggest interests are 12 Tierpark  and 13 S-Bahn station Lichtenberg . You can also use the long distance/regional trains, but departures are less frequent than for the S-Bahn.  S75  also goes to Hohenschönhausen.
• The main entry point for Kreuzberg 61 is 14 Mehringdamm .
• 2 Catedral de la Almudena (Opera ). Daily 09:00-20:30. This massive cathedral faces the Palacio Real. Finished near the end of 20th century in the Neo-Gothic style, it is where the Princes of Asturias Felipe and Letizia were married in 2004. Especially noteworthy are the 5,000-pipe organ, a large painted 15th-century Gothic altarpiece, and the empty 12th-century coffin of Madrid's patron saint, Isidro. €1 (requested donation). (updated Jan 2017)

Andree.sk (talk) 12:39, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

The advantages of {{station}} compared with just using {{marker}} in combination with rint are not obvious at all. Please would one of you (Andree.sk or Wauteurz) explain why using the station template is better. Remember the preference of Wikivoyage to eschew templates for the sake of having templates.

Otherwise, the combination of marker / listing numbers and metro line symbols next to each other is undoubtedly confusing. There should definitely always be some text between them, so that a marker number isn't mistaken for a metro line and vice versa. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:56, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

In short, Station would be used to unify the way in which RINT is used. Andree told me that Station is very much still in development, and that they are working on a way to integrate RINT into Station without having to call two templates (i.e. merge the templates). In development, I am only working on making RINT a standalone template instead of having to depend on Wikipedia's version of the template (which will most likely include changes to Template:Routebox entry in the long run). Andree is in general responsible for all other aspects.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 14:12, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Right, I see. If the merger goes well, that would be an improvement. Your work also sounds promising, so thanks both for your efforts :-) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:27, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

No worries! I'm hoping to have documentation done on the new RINT by Sunday. I'll post here in the Pub asking for feedback then, after which I'll decide whether I'll compact the source text, add funtions to RbE or expand coverage, so stay tuned! You can follow development here if you're wanting to read up a bit.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 14:35, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

[unindent] I'm sorry not to have taken part in this thread. What I understand from User:RolandUnger (and Roland, please correct me if I haven't understood well - this is not my area of expertise) is that all Wikivoyage listing templates other than {{listing}} are going to be unsupported very soon, mainly because he is the one guy maintaining the template, is of course a volunteer like all the rest of us, and one template takes up a lot of his time by itself but he has no time to maintain others. We at en.voy will then have to decide whether to (a) follow the lead of de.voy and deprecate other listing templates or (b) risk having increasingly messed-up, unsupported templates. Roland, did I describe the situation correctly? Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:58, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Briefly, it is correct that we support only one template at the German edition because we have more than 400 types which are necessary to transfer data to Wikidata in future—types like go, see, do are useless for this aim. But normally I do not change anything at other branches without the decision of the community that means there is no change soon. If I have some time I will explain in detail what we have done and what we will do in future to give the base of a discussion on other wikis: to use the state as is or to change over to our solution. Unfortunately, markers and listings are more complex than it is imagined by most of our authors: so the listing template consists of about 15 modules [including skype linking] and supports now 48 parameters including facebook and booking.com. Other tools are depending on this implementation, for instance, the poi-to-gpx tool. That's why we will never accept that the name parameter in marker/listing templates will contain other information than a name. So it is impossible to extract a name from other information by these tools and by bots.

In prior to this we will make some improvements on the German wiki to the listing template (support of Latin and non-Latin addresses got from Wikidata), (hopefully) adding mobile support to the listing editor, and collecting ideas for further development. If a decision is made to use the tools we will prepare all necessities like bot runs (replacing template names, removing unsupported parameters like wikipedia, etc.)—I think we will get support from Wikipedians for bot run. As you stated we haven't the manpower to support different versions on all branches. At the process of a possible implementation we will add and test also right-to-left support for instance for the Hebrew branch. I think it will a take a year. --RolandUnger (talk) 16:12, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for chiming in! In the end, either we solve this somehow or we'll lose the (IMO) nice feature... I (think I) understand your point, though I'd say (for non-richtext-compatible-outputs) dropping e.g. everything from name since first html/markup would be easily done. What about having e.g. parameter "name-extra", or "name-icons" (only used if "rendering" into rich text)? It will probably take a few weeks/months until we switch to {{de:Listing}}, but I'd say by that time, converting some 50-100 articles from {{station}} to any form of {{listing}} should be a minute bot-job... Just tell if you think there's no way, so that we don't waste time adding this stuff into further articles... Andree.sk (talk) 20:09, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

There are some comments above noting that this template breaks the listing editor - what is actually breaking is that the listing editor has a bug where it cannot currently handle the "}}}}" syntax of double-nested templates. As a workaround, change "}}}}" to "}} }}" (note the space) - for example {{template1|{{template2}}}} to {{template1|{{template2}} }} and the listing editor should work again. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:36, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Great, thanks for the suggestion! I applied the workaround where I broke it previously... Andree.sk (talk) 06:41, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Station/rint template not working on wmflabs map

Swept in from the pub

Hi all, the wmflabs map (example Rome) - that's the one that opens when clicking on the icon in the top right corner of an article - doesn't show the station/rint templates properly, it just displays "NoName". Could someone please have a look at that? Thanks! Xsobev (talk) 09:01, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Hi, I know about this too. I suppose this has something to do with the GPX exporter - according to a previous discussion in future this will be an issue, and we'll have to find a better solution than putting templates into the marker 'name=' parameters. But for now, I'm not sure what to do - I'm glad the 'inline dynamic maps' work as expected at least. In the end, I'm curious why we use two types of maps... Andree.sk (talk) 18:59, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

The feature set of both of these maps is different, for example the Kartographer map still has some issues: no custom icons, map layers can't be changed when opened with a "maplink" template (and the default layer is not very useful as it's missing many details), right click doesn't give the geo coordinates/zoom level. These are my reasons of why I would strongly support having two types of maps at the moment, and there might be other reasons. But yes, sometime in the future it makes sense to have only one type. (And I'm not criticizing Kartographer - it has many great features!). Xsobev (talk) 09:19, 30 April 2018 (UTC)