User talk:J2dms09

Hello, J2dms09! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. New users are also welcome to post any questions or concerns to the arrivals lounge. If you are familiar with Wikipedia, take a look over some of the differences here. If you want to contribute with information about the place where you live, see Wikivoyage:Welcome, locals. --Traveler100 (talk) 18:11, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Yeonsu District

Good to see some new contributors to the site, but could I ask that any new points of interest be first added to the Incheon page. When this page gets to large then you or someone else can start a discussion about splitting it into districts. This would first be proposed at Talk:Incheon. --Traveler100 (talk) 18:14, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Also, I've deleted a list of administrative divisions of this district twice, because it's really trivia and of no interest to travelers. If each district is recognizably different in character, though, you can explain how in the "Understand" section. Also, please do not add subheadings instead of listings. Please have a look at Wikivoyage:Listings for information about how to list points of interest and such on this site. Let us know if you have any questions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:33, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Blanking a page

Why did you do that? Articles can be merged with and redirected to other articles; they cannot be blanked. Please explain. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:19, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Stop vandalizing, or we'll have to block you from editing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:16, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Page moved

Hello J2dms09. We understand you're a student in Piotrus's university class on Wikivoyage and Wikipedia. I think his class is a great idea, and I want to contribute to the education process, too, so I'm going to give a detailed explanation of what actions we've just taken, and why.

(I'm sorry that it will be kind of long. I hope you'll try to read it anyway.)

I proposed a "vote for deletion" for the article you created, Yeonsu District. We discussed what to do with the article, and the consensus was to merge and redirect. This means that any useful content was copied and added to Incheon, and the page was replaced with a redirect to Incheon.

I moved the old page to your "sandbox". This means you can still access the page at User:J2dms09/sandbox/Yeonsu District, and all of its history is preserved, so you can see older versions of the article. (You can edit the article there as much as you want, and no one else will do anything to it unless you ask them to.)

Why did we do this? The first problem is that Yeonsu District doesn't meet Wikivoyage's criteria for "What is an article?". That policy says that "If it makes sense to list a suburb (and its airport) as part of the city which it serves, do so." Similarly, our policy on Geographical hierarchy - Districts in cities says that we should "avoid creating a separate district article until we have enough content for it".

On Wikivoyage, we don't create a page for every single part of the Earth that exists. We believe that the traveller comes first, and it's not useful to have so many pages if most of them would be empty. This means that we don't create a separate page for every small town, or for every suburb of a big city. We only create pages for places that travellers are likely to go, and we group and divide locations so that each article has an appropriate amount of content. Even if a city is big enough that the government divides it into districts, Wikivoyage doesn't always follow those divisions. Thus, we don't expect to have articles for every gu (구; 區) in South Korea.

If you still think that Yeonsu-gu has enough things for a traveller to see/do/eat/drink, what we prefer to do on Wikivoyage is add that to the Incheon article, which covers Yeonsu-gu. Eventually, if the Incheon article grows so large that it's too difficult to organize everything in one article, then we would have a discussion about splitting it into districts... but those districts might not be the same as the gu that the Incheon government divides the city into! (For example, in Seoul we combine several gu into larger districts like Seoul/North, Seoul/West, etc.)

Sometimes, we might make exceptions to this policy, but we only do that for editors who have a history of making good contributions, and who make a good argument for why they think we should create the article they want. Unfortunately, your behavior didn't really meet that standard.

• The article you created didn't follow Wikivoyage's formatting, and we are fairly strict about that. Every article in a travel guide should be formatted the same. You used nonstandard names like "Cultural Properties" (which is an unusual phrase in English) instead of standard section names like "See". You used wiki formatting in a way that doesn't match our style for listings. You also included a list of administrative divisions (dong, 동; 洞), which is information we almost never include in Wikivoyage articles. (That sort of content is okay for Wikipedia, which is an encyclopedia, but it's too detailed and not important enough for travellers.)
• Other editors tried to help by fixing the formatting so it matches Wikivoyage's standard formatting, but you reverted (undo / undid) their efforts. This is called edit warring. Edit wars are really not accepted on any wiki. Those other editors have been majors contributors to Wikivoyage for many years; they changed the format because they're very familiar with Wikivoyage's policies and guidelines. It's not constructive or appropriate to undo their fixes.
• You then removed all the content from the page. That's also not constructive, and is not an appropriate response. (In fact, it's a common method of abuse from vandals, which is why we oppose it even on a page that we haven't yet decided to keep.) Now, perhaps you were trying to delete the page; that would be fine, but removing the content isn't how you delete a page. An administrator is required to delete a page; the correct approach is to ask for help by nominating the page for deletion, or post on the article's Talk page or even the Traveller's pub for help in deleting the page.
• Lastly (and perhaps most importantly), you haven't been communicating with us at all during this process. You didn't include any edit summaries when editing the article. We've left messages on your User Talk page to try to help you and collaborate with you, but you still haven't given us any kind of reply.

For all of these reasons, the consensus was to merge/redirect the article you created. We do still welcome your contributions to Wikivoyage. The sites that you added (Gachon Museum, Incheon Metropolitan City Museum, Memorial Hall for Incheon Landing Operation, Neungheodae, and Woninjae) have been added to the Incheon article, and it would be great if you can provide some more information about them (such as a website or description).

On a personal note, I hope that we haven't discouraged you from contributing. I understand that Piotrus's class has time for discussions. Maybe your class can have a discussion about some of the points I mentioned here. I would be interested to get a reply from you or your class afterwards. What policies or actions did everyone understand, and which ones does your class feel confused by? Does your class think that the other editors and I made good decisions, or do they think we should have done something differently?

잘 부탁 드립니다. Cheers, --Bigpeteb (talk) 19:12, 9 October 2019 (UTC)