Talk:Astronomy

Places to look at the stars

Apparently these guys exist, and one of the things they do is certify places that are particularly good for looking up, as they are particularly dark... IIRC there was an article in the magazine you get when riding on a train in Germany recently about one such place that now markets this designation as a tourist draw... Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:18, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Planetaria, Planetariums, one of the places like the Neil deGrasse Tyson works at...

I don't know where and how, but I find it kind of surprising we don't mention this place in the article at all... Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:44, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

The quote

I don't really think this is a great quote, and what do people think of removing it? Or finding a better one, like we're doing (or not doing, as the case may be) with Electrical systems. Selfie City (talk) 05:20, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Propose another quote if you like. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:43, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

24 degrees

The new example says (@MMKK2:):

"Using the 90 degree rule, 90 - 78 = 12. So, anywhere much above 12 degrees north, the star won't ever be visible. However, viewing it at this latitude is not very likely, as it could easily be obscured by hills or buildings right at the horizon. In addition, the star won't be risen at night for months at a time. At 12 degrees south or further, it would be much more easily viewed, and risen every night of the year"

I think the 12 and 12 above are not intended for any symmetry, but could very easily be interpreted so. Is the key the 23° tilt of the axis, which happens to be close to 12+12? This should probably be mentioned explicitly, and the numbers chosen not to be easily misunderstood.

--LPfi (talk) 11:00, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

The boundaries between never/sometimes risen and sometimes/always risen will always have the same degrees. One will be in the Northern Hemisphere and the other in the Southern Hemisphere. You could bold "north" and "south" if you're concerned about confusion. Also, check the Wikipedia article on w:Declination.

--MMKK2 (talk)

OK. I have to think a bit about it to understand. --LPfi (talk) 13:58, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Right shoulder

The article now says "say it's 15:00 [I changed from 16:00 as I removed the DST] and the sun's on your right shoulder; then you're heading sort-of south-east". For me "on your right shoulder" means the sun is shining from behind and right, and at 15:00 the sun is in the south-west (if you are north of the tropics and there is no time-zone bias). Then you'd be heading east, not south-east

 NE    SE
  \   /
N   ô   S
  /   \
NW     SW

Am I mistaken?

–LPfi (talk) 10:03, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

I think your reasoning is correct. Maybe "on your right shoulder" was intended to mean that the sun is shining directly from the right rather than behind and right, in which case SE would be correct. —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:28, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Body parts are difficult across languages. In Swedish we make a distinction between skuldra (the upper parts of your back, with one shoulder blade each) and axel (the part at the shoulder joint). It is hard to know what sense is implicitly obvious in a foreign language, and what needs to be specified. I change in the article, specify if needed. –LPfi (talk) 10:55, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Wikivoyage for astronomers

Swept in from the pub

• It would be nice if there could be sections for each article on Wikivoyage dedicated to traveling astronomers. Whenever an amateur astronomer traveling with a telescope visits a new location, they need to know information about the local area such as:
  • What nearby locations are publicly accessible at night?
    • Are these locations safe to set up telescopes at?
    • Are there any nighttime hazards (crime, wildlife, trigger-happy police) the astronomer should be aware of?
    • Does the location have space to set up telescopes next to a vehicle (such as in a parking lot) or does the telescope have to be carried to an observing site from the parking location?
    • If the telescope has to be carried to the observing site, how far is the distance to the site from the parking location and is it handicap-accessible (either for wheelchairs or for large telescopes)?
  • For nearby observing sites, what are the horizon altitude angles? While this sounds complicated, this can be measured by taking a single all-sky photograph that shows the sky from horizon to horizon using a circular fisheye lens.
    • At minimum, the traveling astronomer needs to be aware of the presence of horizon obstructions such as trees or buildings, especially toward the east for Sunrise and toward the west for Sunset. A wide-angle photograph (such as from a smartphone camera) taken with clear skies at Sunrise and again at Sunset can easily document this.
    • Locations with zero or negative horizons are very difficult to find and should be noted. These are typically only when facing a large body of water (zero horizon) or from a mountaintop (negative horizon if high enough up and looking down) but can also be from the tops of very tall buildings (though these are not typically open to the public to set up telescopes from).
  • Any comments on local light pollution, air pollution, and/or weather.
    • Is the observing site ploughed of snow in winter?
    • Are there street lights in the parking lot?
    • Are there any unusually high levels of pollens or air pollutants (next to a highway for example)? These can degrade certain optical elements.
  • For locations that are already dedicated for astronomical use (not just some random park nearby) are there any astronomy-specific restrictions such as no white light allowed (red light only) or no electronics allowed (radio-quiet areas near radiotelescopes)?
  • What other astronomy resources are available in the community? These can be observatories, planetariums, local astronomy clubs, recurring star parties, astronomy faculty at nearby colleges/universities, etcetera.
  • An international database of publicly accessible astronomical observing sites can then be cross-referenced along the event paths for rare astronomical events such as eclipses, transits, and occultations.
  • Nicole Sharp (talk) 02:31, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

By all means, start a travel topic, but try to keep it manageable. We're not going to be able to cover all of that for every place on Earth. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:04, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes. I don't think we need the information other than for places that are good destinations for amateur astronomers, and we don't have resources to cover all of them. However, observatories accessible by the public, planetariums, local astronomy clubs and recurring star parties should probably be listed wherever they exist. Astronomy faculties can easily be checked for on university (or college – is astronomy taught at that level?) web pages.

For example, here in Turku, there is light pollution in the city where I live, so the relevant places are a bit farther, where checking sites requires some time and dedication. Roads avoid hilltops, so one needs to use small roads or footpaths to reach any viable location; I wouldn't check any where I am not going anyway (although I might adjust my route or choose destinations to be able to help).

For specific issues: Crime is usually noted on country and city article pages already, enough for you to infer a bit. Very difficult though to know whether an intoxicated group of youngsters could get the idea of messing with your equipment. I couldn't tell whether the levels of pollution here typically have any significant effect on observations. For sunrise and sunset, here some 240° of the horizon has either at some time of the year (so "west and east" are mostly irrelevant, but a wide-angle photograph to the west and one to the east would cover much of the year).

–LPfi (talk) 08:07, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

People who are new to astronomy are always asking me for recommendations on the best spots to observe the night sky. The problem is that I can only recommend places that I have personally been to, which is knowledge typically acquired through trial and error by visiting different locations in person since the information is not otherwise available online. Going someplace after dark (especially with a lot of heavy and expensive scientific equipment) requires an advanced level of local knowledge. Firstly, you have to know which places are not open to the public at night and which are. Especially for local parks, this information is typically not available from the World Wide Web, and you can only find out by going there in person to see if there are any "no entry after dark" signs posted, unless perhaps you call the local police department ahead of time (which can be a good idea especially if you are visiting from out of state). Then even if the location is publicly accessible at night, you have no way of knowing which local spots might become hangouts for drugs or illegal activites after dark. Though you could perhaps try cross-referencing the location with a local newspaper to see if anything criminal has been happening there. Another example of something only a local would know is which parks are ploughed when it snows and which parks are left unploughed when it snows, since this is another datum that is not typically published online. If there is an event like a transit, you might drive an hour to get there only to find out no one has bothered to plough the lot. Nicole Sharp (talk) 12:14, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Interesting sidenote about the importance of reading newspapers — one of the hotels that I reserved in Oklahoma did not have any bad guest reviews online but when I googled the name of the hotel, I found news articles indicating that the hotel had not only been robbed twice within the past year (with the hotel desk clerk being sexually assaulted during the second robbery) but it had also become a location for a child prostitution ring, in addition to several hotel guests being murdered (shot or strangled) during repeated robberies. On top of all that, the hotel across the street from where I had made the reservation had been shut down for infecting the guests with chemical pneumonitis, requiring them to be hospitalized. Needless to say I canceled the reservation to find another hotel in a different part of town. Nicole Sharp (talk) 13:01, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

The same applies to locals. I would also have to check any places I want to recommend. Of course, it is easier for me, but I wouldn't bother with a place much off where I otherwise go (and I am not an astronomer). Some of this can be described on a country level; I know no parks over here that wouldn't be open around the clock. Off light pollution you seldom find any hangouts for anybody (other than perhaps at lean-tos and similar infrastructure) so that's seldom an issue. For national parks, whether access routes are ploughed is told on their web sites. –LPfi (talk) 13:54, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

In my experience, most city parks in the US close during the night. They might vary a bit, e.g., closing a sunset/dusk/after dark/a specific time, but city parks that are officially open 24x7 seem to be rare. How it's enforced is a different question. The park nearest me is officially closed dusk to dawn, and yet there's usually someone out walking a dog, or a parent pushing a stroller with a wakeful baby, or someone cutting through the park on their way home. I've even seen a few astronomy events there late in the evening, and nobody seems to mind any of this.

In California, the state parks mostly seem to have a sunset-to-sunrise closing time, with exceptions for campers. I don't know if this is the typical pattern elsewhere. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:55, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Anyone interested in astronomy travel should take a look at our existing article, Astronomy. It already has a lot of the basic info that a heavens-oriented traveler might want to know. If there's something genuinely useful that the article lacks, please add it there. Mrkstvns (talk) 20:07, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

24/7 locations

The other thing needed for Wikivoyage articles is a notification on each page for which locations are open 24/7. This could be something like "^[24/7]" or " 🕒" (emoji icon indicating 3 AM) next to the location names to indicate that they are open 24/7, which can be applied to parks as well as to businesses. I know here, there are only 3 businesses in the entire county (Sheetz gas station, Denny's diner, and the truck stop) that are open all night if you need a public restroom, gasoline, or food/drink (Walmart closes at 11 PM). This is extremely useful for anyone traveling at night, not just for astronomers, especially since highway signs for restaurants and gas stations do not indicate which ones are closed at night. This applies to hotels as well, since some hotels do not allow late check-ins. Nicole Sharp (talk) 12:35, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

We usually write "24 hr daily", which should be clear enough (and you could search for that phrase to catch most), but I haven't bothered for parks, as they don't have such restrictions over here. One could add that info to more roadside restaurants. Actually, we seldom tell about them at all, since they are mostly Wikivoyage:Boring. –LPfi (talk) 13:58, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

If there is only one restaurant available for hundreds of miles, regardless of how dull or boring that restaurant might be, it should be absolutely necessary to mention prominently. Nicole Sharp (talk) 15:18, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but that's unlikely to be the case in the lower 48. Even on smaller highways, it's unusual to go 100+ miles without encountering a small town or at least a gas station. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:42, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

As far as I know, Denny's is the only restaurant open in America after 1 AM outside of major urban areas or truck stops. So other than truck stops, the only place you can eat outside of Washington-Baltimore is just Denny's. If there are any other restaurants open 24/7, I would very much like to know and they should be marked on the Wikivoyage pages. Nicole Sharp (talk) 06:38, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Waffle House is another famously 24x7 restaurant. Some convenience stores sell hot food, and some fast food places and other chain restaurants (e.g., some McDonald's, some iHOPs, some Taco Bells) are open 24x7. If you are planning your route around this, and want to avoid the chains, you might want to search for lists like https://www.eatthis.com/best-24-hour-restaurant-state/ in your favorite search engine. If you just want to find something nearby, then a search like https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=Restaurants&find_loc=Southwestern+New+Mexico%2C+NM&open_time=190&start=20 shows all the restaurants listed on Yelp that are open in the middle of the night (I think I set it to 3:10 a.m. on a Monday). WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:58, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

There are no Waffle Houses here so I will look into that; thank you. That actually might be good for an article page, "chain locations open 24/7" if every single location in the chain is open 24/7 then you don't have to google for opening and closing times. Walmarts are closed at night now so the only ones I know of are Sheetz, Denny's, and chain truck stops such as Love's. I prefer fast food so I do not have to tip but the main issue is access to healthy balanced meals with a full serving of green vegetables (I don't eat salads). Other than Subway, most fast-food restaurants do not serve (non-salad) green vegetables other than a single leaf of lettuce in a cheeseburger. Potatoes are classified as a vegetable by the USA Department of Agriculture but I wouldn't really consider french fries to be a healthy serving of vegetables. Fast food is fine now and then but is not healthy if every single meal is eaten at a fast-food restaurant (Super Size Me). I am going to try to bring canned food though so I have extra vegetables already cooked. Nicole Sharp (talk) 23:03, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Astronomy-friendly locations could be indicated graphically as "🕒🔭" meaning "open at 3 AM; safe for telescopes". Using emoji icons allows to quickly scan the page to find the locations of interest and would require very little change to the current article format in order to add useful information. Nicole Sharp (talk) 12:42, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

I would love to see emoji icons added for other locations of special interest such as "👻" (ghost icon) for locations with a history of hauntings that might be of interest to ghost hunters. This should probably be standardized as a Wikivoyage policy page though so everyone is using the icons consistently. Nicole Sharp (talk) 13:09, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Emoji icons are Unicode characters so that also allows searching for them in MediaWiki Search. A search on Wikivoyage for the special character "🔭" would then automatically pull up all pages with telescope-friendly locations. Nicole Sharp (talk) 13:12, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

I can't speak to the astronomy scene, but in general WV could really improve the way we link Activities and destinations together. Activity articles such as Surfing, for example, provide good overviews of the topic. But they're not intended to be comprehensive; they cover the famous, iconic, or representative locations. Finding the smaller locations requires some creative advanced search queries, and some luck that someone has mentioned a particular activity in the appropriate listing.

If we had a consistent practice of linking activities mentioned in listings to the topic article, we could use the "what links here" tool to at least get a cumbersome list... I wish we could stick a map on the "what links here" result page or at least sort the results by categories. Gregsmi11 (talk) 16:11, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Tagging each location by what activities you can do there is a good idea. So for example "👻" (ghost emoji) would not be appropriate to use for any location that has had a ghost sighting (such as the White House in Washington, DC, USA) but rather specifically just for locations that are appropriate or recommended for ghost-hunting activities. So for example the typical traveler can't do a ghost-hunting expedition to the White House (at least not without a lot of red tape and permission from the USA President) but there are plenty of other allegedly haunted places that encourage ghost hunters to visit as a form of tourism. Nicole Sharp (talk) 16:30, 24 September 2023 (UTC)