Talk:Mecca

Unwikilinked Hajj. Should be covered fully and completely within the Mecca article.

I thought this deserved to be pointed out after (WT-en) Colin made the remark in the log. I have to agree - the WikiTravel article is intended to be stand-alone and information about the Hajj could be very useful. -- (WT-en) Ilkirk 13:38, 30 Jul 2005 (EDT)

One note, Project:What is an article? specifically states: "As another exception, and an even rarer one, certain exceptional or singularly important festivals/events could have their own articles. Examples are:

• the Indian Khumb Mela
• the Hajj (Muslim pilgrimage to Mecca)"

Since in two years no one has written an article on either of these events it seems to make more sense to include their info in the parent articles (unless/until that becomes unwieldy, in which case a new article should probably be created), but if that is done then Project:What is an article? should probably be updated. -- (WT-en) Ryan 13:50, 30 Jul 2005 (EDT)

I forgot it was a possible iterary. But since the Mecca article implies that the Haj is a pilgrimage to Mecca alone and no other location, it seems to me the info belongs within the Mecca article unless the info is too large. -- (WT-en) Colin 14:33, 30 Jul 2005 (EDT)

No, the Hajj traditionally includes a visit to the other holy city, Medina, where the prophet lived for some years from when he was driven out of Mecca until his triumphant return. Also, almost all pilgrims pass through at least the airport at Jeddah and many visit the city.

OK, I've written a Hajj article. (WT-en) Pashley 07:38, 31 May 2006 (EDT)

If I lie and visit...

What's the worst that could happen? Could you give me a plausible scenario of how that end result could come about?

Well, the worst would be that you're beheaded (or just beaten to death by a mob), and you could make this happen by, say, sneaking in and then yelling "Muhammed was a poopiehead" at the Kaaba or something. Note that just "lying" isn't going to be enough, converts to Islam usually need a signed certificate from their local mosque attesting to their faith and (for men) foreskinlessness to apply for the Hajj visa. (WT-en) Jpatokal 09:28, 30 May 2006 (EDT)

Okay if I fake it and visit, and remain discreet throughout the faux pilgrimage--is there any plausible way I could be uncovered and die? 128.54.63.97 10:33, 30 May 2006 (EDT)

Uh, IANAM ('I Am Not A Muslim") but I think that you might easily reveal yourself but not knowing the language, customs, rituals, etc etc... I think you should taking some time to consider what Mecca means to those who devote their whole lives (not to mention a huge part of their life's income) to their visit there. I'm not sure what you're hoping to gain from a "faux pilgrimage." Just to say "been there, done that"? Have you been everywhere else already? (WT-en) Majnoona 10:46, 30 May 2006 (EDT)

Well, I'm planning on giving it a try. I'm big on travel and I'm just not keen on a whole city telling me I can't go. RE: the foreskin business, A) This isn't technically required by the Qur'an, and B) Who's checking?

Has it occurred to you that someone may unintentionally check you while you're urinating? Or do you plan on not drinking out there in the desert for a few days? Also, the notion that a group has no right to keep an out-of-the way sacred city private to themselves is self-centered at best. I mean, if it were a place that you'd want to go if it wasn't sacred is one thing, but to go just because it is? But then, since your not serious about anything except trolling.... -- (WT-en) Colin 03:25, 31 May 2006 (EDT)

• Don't believe for one moment that you'll be able to fool anyone. You're going to need a visa. For the sake of argument you're an American. According to the Saudi Embassy in D.C. "an Islamic certificate must be presented; this needs to be notarized by an Islamic Center." I doubt very much so an Islamic Center will rubber stamp your request. Also, see The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's Ministry of Hajj [1] - (WT-en) Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 03:39, 31 May 2006 (EDT)

I lived in Saudi Arabia in the 80s and was told at the time that the penalty for non-Muslms visiting either Mecca or Medina was death. Sir Richard Burton did it in the 19th century and wrote about it [2]. (WT-en) Pashley 07:07, 31 May 2006 (EDT)

I've flipped through his narrative. It was surprisingly boring! He knew far too much about their customs. There was no challenge.

He didn't learn about their customs by surfing the web, dude. Learning enough to successfully "pass" was part of the challenge. Unless your idea of "a challenge" translates to "doing something foolish that I'm also not prepared for"... then the chances of your story being more interesting than his – but much briefer and never actually written – are pretty good. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 20:42, 5 June 2006 (EDT)

If you really want to go somewhere difficult and adventurous that almost no-one else has been to, try Nurestan. (WT-en) Pashley 20:49, 1 June 2006 (EDT)

Or sail to Howland Island or parachute to the North Pole or canoe up the Amazon or ski Bouvet Island or something else that doesn't have as its focus spitting on the beliefs of other people? - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 20:42, 5 June 2006 (EDT)

But its spitting on other ppl that makes this faux pilgrimage so appealing. Here's what Burton had to say in his account:

There at last it lay, the bourn of my long and weary pilgrimage, realising the plans and hopes of many and many a year … I may truly say that, of all the worshippers who clung weeping to the curtain, or who pressed their beating hearts to the stone, none felt for the moment a deeper emotion than did the Haji from the far north …. But, to confess humbling truth, theirs was the high feeling of religious enthusiasm, mine was the ecstasy of gratified pride.

The fantastic symbolism of overlooking throngs of pious, and knowing you have triumphed over these people. It sounds enchanting.

Nowhere does it say American visas have to be signed for at an Islamic center. This burden is only required of converts: If the applicant has converted to Islam, an Islamic certificate must be presented; this needs to be notarized by an Islamic Center. 128.54.78.215 04:08, 14 June 2006 (EDT)

I'm the guy who originally posted with the idea of going to Mecca. The reason I want to go is because it's one of the few places considered mamnu3 (forbidden) in the world to me. Those other places mentioned, sure they'd be tough but no one is forbidding me from going. In regards to knowing my stuff, keep in mind that I am very well read when it comes to religion, Islam especially. In addition, I've lived in a predominantly Muslim country. In regards to spitting on the beliefs of other people, I wouldn't consider it spitting on their beliefs as their beliefs are my own, to some extant (I can say the shahadah without lying. I simply don't fit most Muslim organizations' definition of a Muslim). The hajj would be as real to me as for the rest of the participants. I just can't do it 'legit' as doing so would be denying some of the other prophets, which I could never do. (WT-en) Iwsfutcmd 07:17, 14 June 2006 (EDT)

You're giving different (and probably incompatible) answers here: 1) "I want to go because they won't let me." 2) "I want to go because it would be spiritually meaningful to me." Maybe you should figure out which one's correct. Anyway, this page is supposed to be for discussing the contents of the article: it answers the question of whether a non-Muslim is welcome and the likely consequences, and the wisdom to heed that or not is up to you. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 07:45, 14 June 2006 (EDT)

I'm assuming from your above description of yourself that you might be Ahmedi or one of the other sects considered heretical and therefore disallowed from entry. I say quite simply: If you want to go, then go. The prohibition on non-Muslims like you is a relatively recent development and so isn't really to do with the religion, but more to do with logistics, and the whims of the puritans who now rule the country. Besides, once you manage to get yourself a Hajj or Umrah visa no-one is ever going to ask you if you are a Muslim or not. There are checkpoints as you enter Makkah, but they are a formality and if you come into the city by bus/coach, they never ever stop those vehicles to have a look at the people inside. If you are white, then you can expect some primo treatment as the locals have some racial inferiority complexes and absolutely love the idea of white people taking on their religion. If you're not white then you will look just like many millions who come through the city, and no-one will bat an eyelid. Either way, it is worth at least looking like a Muslim, by growing a short beard and/or adopting the attire from one of the Muslim cultures - Indian, Bengali, Malaysian, Arabic, Turkish etc. - and no-one would ever ask if you are Muslim. Having said that, I walked around in jeans and a T-shirt sometimes, and saw many others doing the same, and this wasn't an issue. MuslamicRay (talk) 08:28, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

OK now I am confused

What is the punishment for a non muslim who tries to go to Mecca, either successfully or unsuccessfully? Deportation, death, or something else?--(WT-en) Jabuddi 03:25, 12 November 2006 (EST)

The death penalty is definitely an option, albeit it's not up for the alleged to decide the punishment. This guy was lucky because the Indian government was able to convince the Saudis that it was not his fault for straying into Medina. I highly doubt Saudis would use the death penalty for people entering Medina and not for Mecca, the holiest Muslim city. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 22:52, 2 April 2007 (EDT)

I reread the article I provided and while there have never been any reported or registered state sanctioned execution of non-Muslims should we keep the warning as it is or should we note that apparently Saudi officials will or may (we can never know how they may view things) take a lenient view if the violation appears accidental? -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 00:19, 3 April 2007 (EDT)

I confess to being confused on this issue too. Argh. -- (WT-en) Colin 14:35, 3 April 2007 (EDT)

I think the death penalty is very much an option, however, the Saudis are kind of forced to take a lenient view. I mean why would they execute a foreigner whose home nation is as powerful as India, the U.K. or the U.S? It'd be incredibly stupid and would put a huge strain on foreign relations.

Anyhow, hopefully I can put an end to this question – I just emailed the Saudi Embassy in D.C., but I'm doubtful that they'll actually answer my question, which was quite to the point: Could you please explain to me if a non-Muslim enters Medina or Makkah will they potentially face the possibility of execution? -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 15:05, 3 April 2007 (EDT)

Well, actually they did reply. Non-Muslims would not be executed for entering the holy cities. — The Saudi Embassy, Washington, D.C.

I didn't copy over the entire email, but they list the reasons why they do not want non-Muslims to visit the cities. The first was due to the logistics – they already have millions of pilgrims visiting during Hajj and Umrah so resources can wear thin. Imagine if they had to deal with another 3 million people who simply want to go to see what's going on. The other major reason is because non-Muslims visiting would detract from the pilgrims' experience. Plus, what's the point of going if all you're going to do is watch people pray.

So at long last I (and Wikivoyage) have solved the age old question. No you will not die (by the hands of the Saudi government). Just don't piss off any pilgrims or get caught because you're likely to get kicked out of and jailed (as was the case with the Indian man). -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 16:58, 3 April 2007 (EDT)

Thanks for doing the footwork on this! -- (WT-en) Colin 17:51, 3 April 2007 (EDT)

Out of curiosity I emailed the embassy again and asked them about jail and deportation as this happened to the Indian man. The article indicates that the Indian guy was detained by the religious police and its volunteers, but the embassy tells me that that organization does not have the power to detain or arrest anyone, which has really confused me. I also emailed the Ministry of Hajj in the hopes of getting their take. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 14:31, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

The mutawwa alone do not have the power to arrest people, but they usually patrol with regular cops, who do. (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:18, 11 February 2008 (EST)

As I understand it the embassy isn't been wholly forthcoming, I remember asking a few years back and the reply stated that Saudi (Sharia) law has no set penalty for any crime so technically it could happen. Clearly they now have ruled it out, you can get fined for driving towards Mecca, in Mecca probably jail or lashings. Besides if you were absolutely determined convert to Islam then the certificate wouldn't be a problem. Personally I am already essentially convered with regards to my feelings for the other faiths but would not perform Hajj unless I was 100% sure of everything, there is a lesser pilgrimage called Umrah which features the walking around the Kabba and running between the two hills but doesn't go much further and outside of Hajj you could still visit the Hajj sites (mostly. There isn't much in it for a normal secular tourist though, the two holy mosques are almost entirely modern in their construction, the Kabba is in it's fourth of fifth forme etc.

What will be happen?

What would happen if a person(on Umrah visa) try to visit other cities like Ryadh, Jeddah or Dammam to meet with relatives.. Jailed or fined? --116.71.52.224 04:56, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

Visiting Jeddah on an umrah visa is usually allowed. But otherwise, you may be "subject to punishment, including imprisonment or fines of ten thousand riyals". [3]

Public transportation? or none?

The Get around section of our article says "Local buses, taxis, and micro-buses are widely available in Mecca and are inexpensive." However, the transportation section of the wikipedia article says "The city lacks any public transportation options for residents and visitors alike, both during and outside of the pilgrimage season. The main transportation options available for travel within and around the city are either personal vehicles or private taxis." Which one is correct? Texugo (talk) 01:55, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't spotted this until yet. Texugo, Mecca is an important city of the kingdom, has seen tremendous expansion and improvement in infrastructure, and public transportation is good throughout the year. --Saqib (talk) 10:51, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Founder of Islam?

Muslims consider Adam to have been the first prophet of Islam and Muhammad to have been Allah's last Messenger. Is calling the Prophet Muhammad the "founder of Islam" uncontroversial among Muslims? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:03, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

As far as I know it is controversial. The previous version of the lead handled this better, I would say. —Granger (talk · contribs) 10:08, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

@Roovinn:? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:11, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Muhammed "is" the founder of Islam.

In Islam, Adam is the believed to be the first man on Earth and the first prophet of Islam. Another resource to back that up. Roovinn (talk) 12:09, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Britannica is not an Islamic publication, and especially in an article about Mecca, we should not be relying on non-Muslim sources to definitively state who founded Islam. Neither of the other pages you link have the word "founder" in them, per a word search, and the position of Adam as the first human and first prophet of Islam is not the issue here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:50, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

I should say that one of the first things I learned when I was engaged in religious discussions in Malaysia is that to Muslims, Muhammad was not the founder of Islam, and that all the prophets were Muslims. To a Jew, this was a strange idea, because I understood the history of Islam to begin with Muhammad and Islam to be a younger religion that was an offshoot of Judaism. However, anyone who understands that the word "Islam" means "submission to God" can easily see how anyone Muslims believe to be a prophet would have to by definition be a Muslim. If you can explain how someone who was the last messenger of a religion that had existed since the beginning of the human race could be uncontroversially called the "founder" of something that was not new but merely clarified because of distortions that had seeped into the Torah and Gospels (the Muslim view of the situation at the time the Angel Gabriel dictated the Qur'an to Muhammad), go ahead, but to my knowledge, this is an absolutely un-Islamic view. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:58, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't see what's the issue with saying Muhammad is the founder of Islam. I've never heard of it being a controversial issue, and I haven't come across anything stating that. The only "controversial" thing I've come across is people trying to depict Muhammad, only that. Roovinn (talk) 13:03, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

If you found something, that means it's new. How many religious discussions have you had with Muslims about Islam? (I'm guessing you're not yourself a Muslim, but if you are, what have other Muslims said to you about this question?) Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:16, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm not sure where are you going with this. Roovinn (talk) 13:45, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Please explain what part is unclear. If something isn't new, you didn't found it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:46, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

As Abrahamic religions, don’t Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all trace their origins to Abraham? --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 13:54, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

It would be really interesting to hear what an imam would say in response to that; I suspect different imams would give you different discourses. You can look at w:Abraham in Islam for a start, keeping in mind the warnings on it. But I think it makes sense that the words "founder" and "founded" are not used in the article. Instead, it states that: 'In Muslim belief, Ibrahim fulfilled all the commandments and trials wherein God nurtured him throughout his lifetime. As a result of his unwavering faith in Allah, Ibrahim was promised by Allah to be a leader to all the nations of the world.[4] The Quran extols Ibrahim as a model, an exemplar, obedient and not an idolater.[5] In this sense, Abraham has been described as representing "primordial man in universal surrender to the Divine Reality before its fragmentation into religions separated from each other by differences in form".[6]: 18' Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:01, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

By the way, look at this from w:Adam in Islam: 'Adam (Arabic: آدم‎, romanized: ʾAadam) is believed to have been the first human being on Earth and the first prophet (Arabic: نبي‎, nabi) of Islam.[1][...][2] Muslims see Adam as the first Muslim, as the Quran states that all the Prophets preached the same faith of Islam (Arabic: إسلام‎, 'Submission' (to God)).[3]' So wouldn't that make Adam the founder of Islam according to an Islamic (as opposed to historical) view, unless we give that role to Allah Himself? Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:05, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I think that makes sense per discussion. Important but not the founder. This is an interesting discussion.

I think this article should focus on Muhammed, though, due to the history of Mecca itself. To be clear, what edit caused this thread? I'd be interested to see how it was mentioned in the article. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 16:07, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Haha, my bad. It's in the lede! I was looking at the history section. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 16:07, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Could we change it to "This city is the birthplace of Prophet Muhammed, [seen as the final prophet in Islam], and Muslims believe the Qu'ran was first revealed to Muhammad here."

Would this more accurately represent the Islamic view of Muhammed's role within the religion? --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 16:09, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I believe it would. It would be great if a Muslim were participating in this thread, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:12, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah. Are there any other language wikis we could ask, such as Arabic Wikivoyage? Is there an Arabic Wikivoyage? --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 19:40, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Or https://fa.wikivoyage.org/? --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 19:44, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm sure some of the Nigerian users here are Muslims. I'll post to the pub and Requests for comment asking for input if you don't beat me to it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:46, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Done. Tweak the language if you like. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:53, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, hopefully this brings some more expertise to the discussion. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 19:57, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

By any chance, should we ask anyone in the test projects for id, ar and/or ms wikivoyages in the incubator? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 20:28, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

As you wish. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:49, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

The issue is that:

1. I don't know how to say "Travellers pub" in both those languages and I can't write in Malay nor Indonesian. My reading skills in Malay is pretty limited as well.
2. incubator pages are not connected via Wikidata, so I'm not sure how to find that page
3. whether they even have a travellers pub at this point in time.

-- SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:56, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

The equivalent of the Travellers' pub on ms.wikivoyage.org, which redirects to https://incubator.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wy/ms/Laman_Utama&redirectfrom=infopage, is Wq/ms/Wikiquote:Kedai kopi, "kedai kopi" meaning "coffeehouse." However, there are no posts on it. Ironically, searching for "kedai kopi" on the Indonesian incubator seems to produce the same results. I think we should just do our best for now. Too bad Saqib is no longer around, but it's surprising to me that there aren't more Muslims around at the moment. To be clear, there are some, but they aren't participating in this thread. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:00, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

One of the links you linked (incubator:Wq/ms/Wikiquote:Kedai kopi) seems to be the Wikiquote one, but yeah, it's empty, so asking there won't help us. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:09, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek Is this thread good to be removed from rfc? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:39, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Sure, because that notice isn't likely to be of any further help. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:10, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Non-Muslims

@Roovinn: You removed the statement that the minimum penalty for non-Muslims entering Mecca is deportation, and the statement that documentation will be checked on entry. Why did you remove this – is the penalty different now? Is documentation no longer checked for visitors? —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:29, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

@Mx. Granger Hi there, I removed it because there's a lot of conflicting opinions on what will happen if you attempt to enter Mecca as a non-Muslim. Some will say that you will get arrested if you attempt to enter, others will say you will be turned away, and so on. Better to just let readers know that non-Muslims aren't allowed to enter Mecca, plain and simple. Roovinn (talk) 12:34, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Role of Prophet Muhammad in Islam

Swept in from the pub

Hi, everyone! We're trying to work out an optimal phrasing to describe his role in relation to his home town of Mecca. The discussion thread is at Talk:Mecca#Founder of Islam? The participation of any Muslims, or non-Muslims who have excellent knowledge of Islam, would be most appreciated, as surprisingly, none of the participants in the thread so far are Muslims (I lived in a Muslim village in Malaysia for a couple of years, but I am Jewish). Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:50, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Huge magnetic field???

From the article:

Contrary to popular belief, the city does not have a "huge magnetic field" that would disrupt flight activity. It is just internet hearsay.

I've never run across this bizarre claim. Do we really have to rebut insane claims from other corners of the Internet? What's next? Debunking the claims of Q-Anon supporters that Jews are operating space lasers to start forest fires and rebutting the allegations in the past by supporters of Lyndon LaRouche that Queen Elizabeth is a cocaine dealer? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:17, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

I've actually run across this claim twice, but it was years ago so I can't remember where. However @Roovinn: will probably know better. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:19, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

OK, but that's insane. Is it really worth a mention? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:21, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek, @SHB2000

There are two bizarre claims running wild on the internet: One that birds cannot fly around Mecca, and the other is well, this magnetic field claim.

Link 1, Link 2, Link 3

This stuff has been posted to many corners of the internet, and it could very easily mislead users. Figured I could just point out that it is hearsay in case anyone gets the wrong idea.

If it's not appropriate, we can gladly remove it. Roovinn (talk) 09:25, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and removed the sentence. Roovinn (talk) 09:28, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

I mean, it's not hearsay; it's total insanity. How could such things possibly be factual? That's the problem. It would be like having to deny President Biden is a Martian. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:42, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

I suppose such "facts" are designed to make Mecca an even more captivating place. Who knows? Roovinn (talk) 13:26, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Just nonsense by superstitious people, I imagine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:45, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

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