Talk:New York (state)
Add topic|
Archived discussions
|
Destination article statuses
[edit]I wanted to upgrade this article to Usable (in fact, it's close to a Guide in content, I think), but was stymied by the requirement that the "most important" linked destinations be at least Usable as well. Taking a page from Peter Fitzgerald's book, I'm going to record here the status of this article's subregions and linked destinations. Hopefully we can use this record to get the Outlines up to Usable.
| Star | Guide | Usable | Outline | Redlink |
Subregions (not needed for Usable status)
[edit]| Region | Status | To do |
|---|---|---|
| Metro New York | Outline | Needs Understand, Do, Eat, Drink, Sleep, Go Next; Bridgeport, The Hamptons, Palisades to usable |
| Mid-Hudson and Catskills | Usable | In decent shape, but needs to be expanded to cover the Catskills as well as the valley (after move from 'Hudson Valley' title) Redlinked subregions need to be created |
| Capital District | Outline | Virtually empty; needs everything |
| Adirondacks | Usable | Needs better clarity and definition throughout; |
| North Country | Usable | Needs better clarity and definition throughout |
| Central New York | Outline | Needs everything, including possible subregions |
| Finger Lakes | Outline | See, Do, Eat, Sleep need filling out or revision |
| Southern Tier | Usable | Cities brought up to Usable; Better subregion scheme; Expand Get Around |
| Niagara Frontier | Outline | Batavia and Lockport to usable; Convert See and Do to summaries; Fill out other sections |
"Most Important" linked destinations (needed for Usable status)
[edit]| Region | Status | To do |
|---|---|---|
| Adirondacks | Usable | Needs better clarity and definition throughout; |
| Albany (New York) | Usable | More prose; Format listings |
| Buffalo | Guide | General cleanup with eye toward star nomination; Possible edits for length |
| Catskills | Usable | Consider whether counties make the best subregions; Summarize See and Do and remove listings Write Eat and Drink sections |
| Letchworth State Park | Usable | Add map, add details in Do, Buy, Eat, Drink, and Sleep/Camping |
| New York City | Guide | Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx, Staten Island to guide; General cleanup with eye toward star nomination |
| Niagara Falls (New York) | Usable | Expand and expound; add summaries |
| Rochester (New York) | Guide | General cleanup with eye toward star nomination; Possible edits for length |
| Syracuse (New York) | Usable | Needs Understand, Go Next sections, and better lede; Expand existing listings and summarize |
| Thousand Islands | Usable | Decide if this is a bottom-level article or not |
Other linked destinations (not needed for Usable status)
[edit]| Region | Status | To do |
|---|---|---|
| Binghamton | Usable | Improve and add prose; Pare down Get Around section |
| Chautauqua | Outline | Flesh out |
| Cooperstown (New York) | Outline | Add listings to Do and Buy; Write more prose |
| Darien Lake | Outline | Write remaining empty sections |
| Fire Island National Seashore | Usable | Expand prose; Write Buy, Drink, Go Next sections |
| Ithaca (New York) | Usable | Near-guide quality; Minor style updates, clarify prose |
| Lake George | Usable | Expand prose; Add See section |
| Saratoga Springs | Usable | Add prose to listings; Expand buy section; Add more prose throughout |
Catskills, Hudson Valley, Capital District
[edit]I'm not sure which thread to use, so I'll just make yet another one ;) I think these are the subjects of debate in the hierarchy as we currently have it. I'd happily see the Catskills article limited to the area in the blue line. I also think it would make plenty of sense to divide the current Hudson Valley article into two: Hudson Valley and Capital District, as per the NY State tourism bureau . Someone above referred roughly to the inherent weirdness of grouping NYC suburbs with Saratoga Springs and Glens Falls, and I agree with the objection. --Peter Talk 01:44, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- I still think 11 regions is too many (even 10 is pushing it), and I fear the proposed Hudson Valley region would be too sparse, though I could be proven wrong on that latter point. If the Capital District is that important to split off from the rest of the Valley (though why, I don't know), then I'd rather see the Catskills and the mid-Hudson grouped into one region. LtPowers (talk) 01:53, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- I don't know why you think 11 regions is too many. It's a big, diverse state! I was actually under the impression that we have been moving away from having lots of levels of hierarchy, and towards trying to flatten things out when possible—that does mean a larger number of regions at any given point in the hierarchy, but it also means less navigation is required, and fewer outline region articles. The Catskills are not part of the Hudson Valley, so I don't see why that grouping would be advantageous. --Peter Talk 02:09, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- I basically agree with Peter - geographically and culturally, it makes sense to divide the Capital District from the Hudson Valley, and the Catskills are obviously not in a valley. But how well that will work out really depends how much we get content contributed by really knowledgeable people. The Capital District is important mainly because of the state capital but also because of SUNY-Albany and other area colleges (Rensselaer Polytech, etc.), so there is a use to providing separate information about places to eat, drink, shop, and experience culture in the area, which is not at all close to Newburgh or Poughkeepsie. I doubt we have to worry about there not being enough content in Hudson Valley, considering the great contributions of Daniel Case. Catskills has a good start, too, though there are some red links in it. So I'd vote to go ahead and give it a try. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:20, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Well for one, the Catskills as defined by the blue line is way too small to be a top-level region; it's smaller than Steuben County. So dividing the entire area between the Adirondacks and New York City into the Upper Hudson and the Mid Hudson seemed to make sense. As for the number of regions, 7+/-2 is a good rule, and I know I have trouble wrapping my head around 10 regions, let alone 11. Even California only has 10 regions. Texas only has seven. Florida would have twelve, but we grouped them into 4 superregions because 12 is too many. LtPowers (talk) 02:27, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- Ikan, obviously the Catskills aren't in a valley; if we grouped them together, we wouldn't call it the Hudson Valley. (Not least because if we split off the Capital District, it's part of the valley too.) LtPowers (talk) 02:28, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- The part of Westchester County on the river is also part of the Hudson Valley but not treated as such, and I think that people in New York are probably more likely to think of Tarrytown as part of the Hudson Valley than Albany, so I don't see an issue there. I haven't checked out the region discussions regarding California, Florida, or Texas, but I don't think we should be wedded to any particular number of regions, only what's most useful to the traveler. If you'd like to group them into superregions, that's OK, but I don't see a really good reason to put the Catskills in with the Hudson Valley. What would be the reason? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:54, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- Repeating myself, "Well for one, the Catskills as defined by the blue line is way too small to be a top-level region; it's smaller than Steuben County. So dividing the entire area between the Adirondacks and New York City into the Upper Hudson and the Mid Hudson seemed to make sense." LtPowers (talk) 13:08, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- I don't know why you think 11 regions is too many. It's a big, diverse state! I was actually under the impression that we have been moving away from having lots of levels of hierarchy, and towards trying to flatten things out when possible—that does mean a larger number of regions at any given point in the hierarchy, but it also means less navigation is required, and fewer outline region articles. The Catskills are not part of the Hudson Valley, so I don't see why that grouping would be advantageous. --Peter Talk 02:09, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Okay, so I wanted to illustrate what I'm talking about since we seem to be talking past each other a bit:
1: Our current regions map
2: Splitting off the area inside the Blue Line
3: Having an Upper Hudson and a Mid-Hudson/Catskills region
4: Like 3, but with Orange and Putnam to NY Metro and Montgomery and Schoharie to Capital District (added 8/16/2013)
So the problems with option #2 are that the Catskills region (in green) is way too small, and it leaves the bulk of Delaware and Sullivan Counties (in gray) without obvious regions. #3 is my proposed alternative, if grouping the upper and middle Hudson valley areas isn't acceptable for some reason. But it doesn't seem right, either, due to the actual Catskill Mountains intervening between the Delaware and Hudson valleys. I also don't think it makes for a good balance size- and content-wise between the two regions.
In other news, I can't count. We currently have nine regions, not ten.
-- LtPowers (talk) 19:17, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- #3 looks pretty good to me. --Peter Talk 08:26, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- Previously, though, you said "The Catskills are not part of the Hudson Valley, so I don't see why that grouping would be advantageous." LtPowers (talk) 13:31, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- Your illustration convinced me that this is the most practical way to sort this out. The area surrounding the Catskills proper is kind of an oddball chunk of the state to deal with, but doesn't really belong in the Catskills article, which I think should be limited to what's inside the Blue Line. So tossing it into an amalgamation article like Mid-Hudson–Catskills solves some otherwise lingering problems. --Peter Talk 05:55, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
- Hmm, okay. My remaining concern, though, would be the disparity in size between the Capital Region and the Mid-Hudson/Catskills region. (Or Hudson/Delaware/Catskills?) Granted that the capital region is fairly urban, with Albany, Troy, Schenectady, and Saratoga Springs, but it's considerably smaller in scope than the Central and Finger Lakes regions.
- One other option would be to keep the current division but move the vertical divide between Hudson Valley (on the right) and Catskills (on the left) to the west, to allow valley communities below the Catskill slopes to be included in the Hudson Valley region. We'd also move Orange County from Catskills to Hudson Valley. I didn't draw that one up because I wasn't sure exactly where the line would go (even though I've asked at least twice in previous discussions). LtPowers (talk) 13:47, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, and if we go with #3, we'd have to figure out how to subdivide the Mid-Hudson article. LtPowers (talk) 13:52, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
- Your illustration convinced me that this is the most practical way to sort this out. The area surrounding the Catskills proper is kind of an oddball chunk of the state to deal with, but doesn't really belong in the Catskills article, which I think should be limited to what's inside the Blue Line. So tossing it into an amalgamation article like Mid-Hudson–Catskills solves some otherwise lingering problems. --Peter Talk 05:55, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
- Previously, though, you said "The Catskills are not part of the Hudson Valley, so I don't see why that grouping would be advantageous." LtPowers (talk) 13:31, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
Okay, I'm starting to come around to making the Capital District a separate thing. It's a well-known (if not well-defined) region and people will be looking for it. (To be fair, even under our current divisions, we could have made it a subregion of the Hudson Valley.) I'm still a bit troubled by the sheer size of the Delaware-Catskills-Hudson region, as well as the impossibility of properly naming it, so I welcome any input there. I was also thinking that if we split off the Capital District, maybe we should move Montgomery and Schoharie Counties into it, from Central. I think Amsterdam and Cobleskill likely identify more with Albany than with Syracuse or even Utica. That would make Central a bit less sprawling and beef up the geographically tiny Capital District a bit. Thoughts? LtPowers (talk) 17:23, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've added an example of what I mean as #4 above. It's starting to grow on me; the part I'm not sure about is if Orange and Putnam fit well into the NY Metro article. LtPowers (talk) 17:34, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
- I like #4 as well, but think Orange and Putnam really belong in the Mid-Hudson grouping. --Peter Talk 21:26, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
- I just think that grouping is too vast compared with the other regions. LtPowers (talk) 22:55, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
- If we decide to combine the Catskills with the Hudson Valley, I prefer #3 better to #4, because I consider Orange and Putnam Counties more exurban than suburban. I don't have strong opinions about what counties should be in the Capital Region. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- While the Catskills–Mid-Hudson region looks big, the whole of the Catskills territory will be covered basically in just one region/OD link. It's not like Orange and Putnam are super travel dense regions that will throw off the balance of content! --Peter Talk 03:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- You may be right, but it's hard to tell without actually making the change. If we do use that grouping, what would we call it? Mid-Hudson seems absurd for areas near the Delaware River and on the other side of the Catskills from the Hudson. Also, do you still think the Catskills region should be kept to the area within the Blue Line (shown in #2 above)? The Catskills are as much a conceptual resort area and geographic formation as they are an administrative boundary, if not more so. LtPowers (talk) 12:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- We could call it "Hudson Valley and Catskills." Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- You may be right, but it's hard to tell without actually making the change. If we do use that grouping, what would we call it? Mid-Hudson seems absurd for areas near the Delaware River and on the other side of the Catskills from the Hudson. Also, do you still think the Catskills region should be kept to the area within the Blue Line (shown in #2 above)? The Catskills are as much a conceptual resort area and geographic formation as they are an administrative boundary, if not more so. LtPowers (talk) 12:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- While the Catskills–Mid-Hudson region looks big, the whole of the Catskills territory will be covered basically in just one region/OD link. It's not like Orange and Putnam are super travel dense regions that will throw off the balance of content! --Peter Talk 03:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- If we decide to combine the Catskills with the Hudson Valley, I prefer #3 better to #4, because I consider Orange and Putnam Counties more exurban than suburban. I don't have strong opinions about what counties should be in the Capital Region. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I just think that grouping is too vast compared with the other regions. LtPowers (talk) 22:55, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
- I like #4 as well, but think Orange and Putnam really belong in the Mid-Hudson grouping. --Peter Talk 21:26, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
As a resident of the disputed :-) territory, I have been asked to get my head out of my recent trip to Shanghai and Hong Kong for Wikimania long enough to formulate some thoughts about this and share them. So, here they are:
- I like #3 the best as it allows for a realistic combination of the Hudson Valley and Catskill regions that no one here would disagree with. Using the Blue Line to treat the Catskills as a separate region is one of those well-intentioned ideas that would not comport with the facts on the ground. While it works for the Adirondacks as the region and the park are more or less coterminous, the Catskill Mountains themselves continue well west of the park, and many of the attractions commonly associated with the word "Catskills"—the summer bungalow colonies and some of the fly-fishing waters like the West Branch of the Delaware, for instance—are well outside it.
I also think you can put Montgomery and Schoharie counties into the Capital District for no other reason than to make it larger vis-a-vis its neighbors; your intuition that they probably are closer to Albany culturally than Syracuse or Utica is, to me, correct. Daniel Case (talk) 05:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- It's reassuring to hear that bit about the Catskills extending west of the blue line, because that makes the county-based grouping seem less arbitrary. A synthesis of #3 & #4 using the larger versions of both "Hudson Valley and Catskills" and "Capital District" is looking like the right solution to this old problem! --Peter Talk 06:43, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- The rejiggering has been completed. I left Catskills alone, moving it to be a subregion of Mid-Hudson and Catskills. That article is the former "Hudson Valley" article, with the very small amount (really, almost nothing) of Capital District stuff excised. Capital District is all-new, with just the county descriptions copied in; it needs content badly, as it has none! LtPowers (talk) 01:48, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- It's reassuring to hear that bit about the Catskills extending west of the blue line, because that makes the county-based grouping seem less arbitrary. A synthesis of #3 & #4 using the larger versions of both "Hudson Valley and Catskills" and "Capital District" is looking like the right solution to this old problem! --Peter Talk 06:43, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Banner
[edit]Is it just me, or does the current banner image seem hazy and smoggy to anyone else? LtPowers (talk) 14:34, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- It's definitely not just you. The banner doesn't present New York in a good light. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 14:39, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- I agree. It's very dark and has insufficient contrast. We should look for a better photo for a banner. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:13, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
Whatever became of the effort to promote this article from outline to something higher?
[edit]I guess the title says it all. Seeing our recent success over at Germany or even the USA themselves, I have to wonder, what is still missing for this guide to become usable or guide. Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:15, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
- User:LtPowers appears to be maintaining a list at the top of this page, #Destination article statuses, which lists what's left to do to get this page to 'usable'. K7L (talk) 11:50, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
- The only thing missing for Usable status at the moment is an upgrade to Adirondacks. Powers (talk) 19:38, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Newsday article on New York sights
[edit]Leaving this here for future reference -- items we may want to make sure are included in the See section. Powers (talk) 15:43, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
Buffalo, home of the Bills?
[edit]Re: Buffalo — the largest city in upstate New York, home of the Buffalo Bills, the Buffalo Sabres... and the Buffalo wing
The Sabres do indeed play in Buffalo, but the Bills play in Orchard Park. Is that considered part of Buffalo by people in the area, or do they recognize that it's not? We in New York City don't pretend that the Meadowlands are in New York City, so New York is home to the Yankees, the Mets, the Knicks, the Rangers, and in Brooklyn, the Nets and now Islanders, but not the Jets, the Giants or the Devils. Should we change this one-liner? Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:38, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah but the Meadowlands are in a different state. Orchard Park is not technically Buffalo but these one-liner listings aren't the place for splitting hairs. That said, I've never been totally happy with that particular listing; I'd welcome a wholesale revision. Powers (talk) 21:11, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Perhaps User:AndreCarrotflower might be inspired to write a new one-liner, as this is his beloved home town. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:20, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Powers; mentioning the Bills in the one-liner is fine. Aside from the fact that the odds favor the Bills moving to a new stadium in the city proper within a few years, differentiating between individual cities and towns within the Buffalo-Niagara metro area at this level in the breadcrumb hierarchy handily qualifies as hair-splitting. As for the blurb in general, I'm visiting the in-laws for the weekend but will be more than happy to jazz it up when I get back, if we agree that it's desirable. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:56, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Enjoy your visit. I'd love to see what you come up with for a one-liner, but it's not urgent. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:50, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- Wasn't there a New York mayor once who after the Giants won the Super Bowl said something to the effect of "let them hold their parade in New Jersey, they don't play in New York"? I have never been to NYC (though it's on my bucket list), but I do know that there is a rivalry or at least a perception of animosity towards New Jersey... I don't think the same can be said for Buffalo and its suburbs, can it? Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:19, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- That was Mayor Koch. He said let them have a parade in Moonachie. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:21, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- Where? Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:52, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- That's a town in the New Jersey Meadowlands. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:59, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- Conversely, if the Bills ever win the Super Bowl, there will be a parade in Downtown Buffalo. And it will probably extend down the Thruway for days. Powers (talk) 16:46, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- Right, but the Giants championship teams since Mayor Koch (who was in the 80s) have had ticker tape parades down Broadway, so that isn't really a difference anymore. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:40, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- I guess they will again in February... Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:29, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- Right, but the Giants championship teams since Mayor Koch (who was in the 80s) have had ticker tape parades down Broadway, so that isn't really a difference anymore. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:40, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- Conversely, if the Bills ever win the Super Bowl, there will be a parade in Downtown Buffalo. And it will probably extend down the Thruway for days. Powers (talk) 16:46, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- That's a town in the New Jersey Meadowlands. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:59, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- Where? Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:52, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- That was Mayor Koch. He said let them have a parade in Moonachie. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:21, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- Wasn't there a New York mayor once who after the Giants won the Super Bowl said something to the effect of "let them hold their parade in New Jersey, they don't play in New York"? I have never been to NYC (though it's on my bucket list), but I do know that there is a rivalry or at least a perception of animosity towards New Jersey... I don't think the same can be said for Buffalo and its suburbs, can it? Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:19, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- Enjoy your visit. I'd love to see what you come up with for a one-liner, but it's not urgent. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:50, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Powers; mentioning the Bills in the one-liner is fine. Aside from the fact that the odds favor the Bills moving to a new stadium in the city proper within a few years, differentiating between individual cities and towns within the Buffalo-Niagara metro area at this level in the breadcrumb hierarchy handily qualifies as hair-splitting. As for the blurb in general, I'm visiting the in-laws for the weekend but will be more than happy to jazz it up when I get back, if we agree that it's desirable. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:56, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Perhaps User:AndreCarrotflower might be inspired to write a new one-liner, as this is his beloved home town. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:20, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Illustrating this article
[edit]New York State is full of beauty. I think it's obvious we need at least one photo of New York City and another of Niagara Falls. Logical other things to show could include a photo of a view across a great lake, with the water disappearing below the horizon, a photo of pretty buildings in Saratoga Springs or any number of small-town historic districts, a view across or alongside the Hudson River in the Hudson Valley, a view of the Adirondacks, a view of the Erie Canal, a picture of something photogenic in any of several Upstate cities such as Buffalo, Rochester, Albany, Troy, Ithaca or Syracuse (not an exhaustive list), and maybe someplace in Long Island. But it's just a shame for a few red leaves and part of the Bear Mountain Bridge to be the only photos on this page. I worked on Pennsylvania tonight. I know we have great editors who live in Western and Upstate New York, and quite a few people other than I have a good working knowledge of New York City. Would you like to help with this task of beautifying this guide to New York State? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:37, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- It took me forever just to find that unfocused leaf picture. I find the task draining, personally, but I'll keep an eye out. Powers (talk) 01:56, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I'll help, too. The leaf picture is nice; I just don't want it to be the only image of the state in the body of the article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:51, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I just looked through most of the Featured, Quality and Valued image results for Commons Category:New York. I added two that were unused in other Wikivoyage articles, of fairly obvious subject matter to place in this guide: One of the Midtown Manhattan skyline and another of Horseshoe Falls. In order to give a fair representation of the state, though, it will be necessary to search separately for results for parts of the state we want represented in this article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:50, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Just a quick note: this article really cries out for more images. I'll try to look for some good ones from around the state later, but if anyone else would like to do so, please do! Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:10, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
- I just looked through most of the Featured, Quality and Valued image results for Commons Category:New York. I added two that were unused in other Wikivoyage articles, of fairly obvious subject matter to place in this guide: One of the Midtown Manhattan skyline and another of Horseshoe Falls. In order to give a fair representation of the state, though, it will be necessary to search separately for results for parts of the state we want represented in this article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:50, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I'll help, too. The leaf picture is nice; I just don't want it to be the only image of the state in the body of the article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:51, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Culture
[edit]@AndreCarrotflower: Just a question here. As a local, would you consider Buffalo (and maybe upstate New York in general) more Midwestern or East Coast in culture? The dog2 (talk) 17:55, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- Definitely not Upstate New York in general. Western New York (Rochester, Buffalo, etc.) only. But what's Midwestern really depends on where you are sitting. I had a roommate from Iowa at Aspen one summer, and he considered Ohio to be Eastern, period, whereas as a Manhattanite, Buffalo and even more so, Chautauqua County felt Midwestern to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:11, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- The dog2 - This is actually a much debated question among Buffalonians, with no clear consensus answer. However, I've travelled a good bit through both the East Coast and Midwest, so I feel qualified in weighing in with some degree of authority.
- The answer is complicated. First, we have to address the problematic nature of "Midwest culture" as a concept. While the Midwest is a coherent geographical entity, I would argue that coherence doesn't carry over into culture. The worldview of a Rust Belter in a place like Cleveland or Detroit just doesn't have much in common with that of a corn farmer in Iowa, or that of someone in the North Woods of northern Minnesota or Michigan's Upper Peninsula.
- That being said, there are very stark cultural differences between Upstate and Downstate New York, and in the case of Buffalo specifically, it is very clearly aligned in a cultural sense with the Great Lakes (ergo the Midwest) rather than the coastal Northeast. I'm less qualified to opine about other regions of Upstate, but in general terms, I would say a trip down Interstate 90 from Albany (which I would argue represents the outer limits of NYC's cultural sphere of influence, even though no one would deny that it's geographically Upstate) westward to Buffalo presents a very palpable gradual transition from East Coast to Midwest culture, and that meanwhile the Southern Tier is actually more Appalachian in cultural bent than either of those two.
- Ikan Kekek - Chautauqua County is an interesting case. You say it felt Midwestern to you, which I take to mean you probably stuck close to the Lake Erie shoreline along the I-90/NY 5/US 20 corridor, or maybe visited some of the more touristy spots around the upper portions of Chautauqua Lake. But go any distance inland and it gets very Appalachian very fast. Jamestown, for instance, reminds me of nothing so much as West Virginia. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 06:12, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
- I haven't been to West Virginia, so I have no Appalachian basis for comparison (I've been to Asheville, NC, which certainly doesn't typify Appalachia, but if Jamestown was very different from other small cities in inland Western New York, I couldn't tell). I was really thinking of the beautiful rolling hills between Chautauqua and Lake Erie, though, but also people's accent, vocabulary (e.g., pop vs. soda) and manner of speaking. But Buffalo, which I've visited twice, definitely felt quite different from New York City or even Albany, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:57, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
- I've only been to Buffalo once, and back then I was still an ignorant foreigner in high school, and only passing through on the way to Niagara falls, so unfortunately, I didn't pay that much attention to cultural differences from NYC, though it certainly felt somewhat different. The cultural diversity of the US is really easy for foreigners to underestimate, especially if your idea of "America" is purely based on what Hollywood portrays. One stereotype we actually have in Asia is that white people do not eat spicy food, so imagine the shock when a tourist from Asia tries Buffalo wings and that stereotype gets completely tossed out of the window. The dog2 (talk) 06:52, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, not my absolute favorite dish, but it really is better in Western New York where it comes from. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:57, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
Immigration to New York
[edit]Take this for what it's worth:
[quote]
- In 2018, 4.4 million immigrants (foreign-born individuals) comprised 23 percent of the population.
- New York was home to 2.3 million women, 2 million men, and 206,980 children who were immigrants.
- The top countries of origin for immigrants were the Dominican Republic (11 percent of immigrants), China (9 percent), Mexico (5 percent), Jamaica (5 percent), and India (4 percent).
[unquote]
You could interpret this as stating that there is or is not widespread Mexican immigration to New York. I don't think there's any question that the Mexican community has grown a lot in New York City in the last couple of decades, with a big presence in Spanish Harlem, some neighborhoods in Queens like Jackson Heights and parts of the Bronx and Westchester County. I also noticed a community in Kingston. We're not like California, though, because the Caribbean is so much closer to the East Coast. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:42, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
- The edits I made which led to the remarks above don't exactly have to do with immigration per se, in my opinion, but were more related to the presence of ethnic communities regardless of whether they're foreign- or native-born. (I admit the edit summary was a bit clumsily worded; it's a shame you can't go back and edit them after the fact.) Compounding that is the fact that since Puerto Ricans are American citizens, people originally from Puerto Rico who later move to New York presumably wouldn't be classified as "immigrants" by the source you cited above.
- According to the U.S. Census Bureau's American Community Survey from 2017 (the most recent year for which data is available), there are 1,112,962 people in New York State who self-identify as being of Puerto Rican ethnicity; 872,504 who identify as being of Dominican ethnicity; and 478,850 who identify as being of Mexican ethnicity. That's a pretty steep drop-off between second and third place. But, on the other hand, if the Mexican community is growing more rapidly than other Latin American ethnicities, the gap may have narrowed a bit in the four years since, and it also bears mentioning that the dropoff between third and fourth place is even steeper (478,850 Mexicans vs. 76,337 Cubans). So although my preference is to not muddle the issue by mentioning Mexican-American New Yorkers (what's interesting to travellers correlates with what's unusual or unexpected about a given place, and New York is one of the few regions of the U.S. where Mexicans don't predominate among Latino nationalities), there are viable arguments on the other side too.
- I agree with all your points. In New York City and places like Kingston, I think it's particularly Mexicans from Pueblo who have really made their presence felt since I guess the 90s or so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:10, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
- Interesting. That's quite different from Chicago, where Mexicans form the majority among Latinos, with Puerto Ricans in second place. And of course, there's smaller numbers of Guatemalans, Ecuadorians, etc. I'm not sure how's the Mexican food in New York City, but Chicago has really awesome Mexican food, and you can get really authentic carnitas, chorizo, carne asada, etc. The dog2 (talk) 03:25, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- Since I ordinarily go to California at least once every year to visit my brother and friends in the Bay Area and sometimes go south to L.A. to visit my cousin, I don't have Mexican food too often in New York, but a couple of years ago, I got some tacos from a taco truck in Brooklyn that were great and as good as a good taqueria in the Mission District in SF; when I asked them, they told me their restaurant is in Jackson Heights. There's also for years (but not recently, due to the pandemic) been a taco truck late nights at 2nd St. near Ave. A in the East Village that's not quite as good as that but still tasty, honest food. I also enjoyed a Mexican restaurant on 116th St. between Lexington and 3rd or 2nd and 3rd when I was staying in Spanish Harlem for a week a couple of summers ago (one dish I enjoyed was a generous-portioned appetizer of grilled sliced pasilla peppers, onions and cream). There's no question that the average Mexican eatery is better throughout at least most of California, but I think it's easier to find a higher caliber of Mexican food in New York than it used to be; you just have to know where to look. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:18, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- By the way, I still remember having a delicious Mexican meal in Evanston in 1988, which included chicken mole poblano. Chicago is a great eating city and definitely known for Chicano food and culture. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:20, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- The best Mexican food I've ever eaten was in - of all places - rural Orleans County, where there are a handful of taquerías that are just beginning to come onto the radar screens of Buffalo- and Rochester-area foodies, but whose clientele still consists mostly of the migrant farm laborers who work in the local fruit orchards. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 06:42, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
pgname?
[edit]Should it remain as New York (state) or be changed to New York (just the |pgname=, not moving the page. Pinging @Ikan Kekek, JTZegers: who have local knowledge. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:53, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
- I think that more people outside the U.S. know New York as a city than as a state, so I'd keep the names as is. Those of us who live in New York City call the city simply "New York", and the official name of it is the "City of New York". However, I'm not sure I'm answering your question, because you're suggesting not moving the page. I don't understand what you're thinking of. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:16, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
- Currently the page banner says New York (state), however, that can be modified to show just "New York". SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:19, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
- Oh, the banner. I think it should be captioned "New York State". Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:28, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
Done. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:21, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
Glens Falls
[edit]I am stumped as to which region Glens Falls should be in.
The city is in Warren County, which otherwise is almost entirely within the Adirondacks, for which User:Peterfitzgerald used the Blue Line as the boundaries. It's very close to Lake George -- Greater Glens Falls Transit provides public transportation to and within Lake George, for instance -- and is the last good-sized community north of Albany until you hit Plattsburgh. On the other hand, it's technically not within the park borders (at least as far as I can tell; it's difficult) and isn't far from Saratoga Springs, which is definitely Capital Region.
Any ideas?
-- Powers (talk) 00:35, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- I think it’s in the Capital District, although near the Adirondacks, as you have indicated. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 02:16, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
- The maps don't answer the question. Warren County is not shown as part of Capital District, where the static map shows every county. However, the Adirondacks map shows Glens Falls to be just outside the boundaries of the map if you zoom and look closely. Powers, which region do you think it belongs to more? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:03, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's the problem. You'd have to extend the Capital District to include part of Warren County, or extend the Adirondacks region outside of the Blue Line to incorporate all of Warren County. Glens Falls serves in many ways as a gateway to the Adirondacks, so by that measure I'd include it there. (It's also worth noting that there's no obvious demarcation point along U.S. Route 9 where you transition from the outskirts of Lake George to the outskirts of Glens Falls; for example, the outlet center just north of Six Flags is called "The Outlets at Lake George" even though they're closer to Glens Falls.) But that would make it an anomaly among communities that are otherwise entirely within the Blue Line. Powers (talk) 02:23, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
- If you feel like extending the Adirondacks region to include Glens Falls is the best solution, even if it's still problematic, we should do that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:13, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well if I knew what the best solution was, I wouldn't have needed to ask for other opinions. =) For what it's worth, though, Reddit seems to agree, though with a tiny sample size. Powers (talk) 00:23, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- If you feel like extending the Adirondacks region to include Glens Falls is the best solution, even if it's still problematic, we should do that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:13, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's the problem. You'd have to extend the Capital District to include part of Warren County, or extend the Adirondacks region outside of the Blue Line to incorporate all of Warren County. Glens Falls serves in many ways as a gateway to the Adirondacks, so by that measure I'd include it there. (It's also worth noting that there's no obvious demarcation point along U.S. Route 9 where you transition from the outskirts of Lake George to the outskirts of Glens Falls; for example, the outlet center just north of Six Flags is called "The Outlets at Lake George" even though they're closer to Glens Falls.) But that would make it an anomaly among communities that are otherwise entirely within the Blue Line. Powers (talk) 02:23, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
- The maps don't answer the question. Warren County is not shown as part of Capital District, where the static map shows every county. However, the Adirondacks map shows Glens Falls to be just outside the boundaries of the map if you zoom and look closely. Powers, which region do you think it belongs to more? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:03, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
Input needed on New York State region boundaries
[edit]I could use some help, discussion at Talk:New York (state)#Glens Falls. Thanks! Powers (talk) 02:11, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
Edit war about Latinos as a usual part of the population of Upstate cities
[edit]See this site:
Most of New York’s 10 largest cities also have significant Latino populations. The Latino share of these cities’ population ranges from 4.1% in Cheektowaga to 42.1% in Yonkers. Additionally, five of New York major cities are also home to the state’s largest Latino communities, including New York City, Buffalo, Yonkers, Rochester, and New Rochelle. The state’s 10 largest cities are home to 69.3% of New York’s Latino population.
Between 2010 and 2020, the growth of the Latino population in New York and in four of the five largest cities outstripped the growth of the non-Latino population.
TOP 10 NEW YORK CITIES POPULATION INCREASE FOR STATE OF NEW YORK AND SELECTED CITIES 2010-2020 CITY TOTAL POPULATION LATINO POPULATION LATINO SHARE OF POPULATION New York 8,804,190 2,490,350 28.3% Buffalo 278,349 35,643 12.8% Yonkers 211,569 89,065 42.1% Rochester 211,328 41,869 19.8% Syracuse 148,620 15,625 10.5% Albany 99,224 11,541 11.6% New Rochelle 79,726 26,257 32.9% Cheektowaga 76,829 3,161 4.1% Mount Vernon 73,893 14,003 19.0% Schenectady 67,047 8,758 13.1%