Talk:Studying abroad

Elitist tone

This article seems to have an in-built assumption that only the "elite" universities are worth travelling to study at, and the quality of other universities in countries falls away rapidly (for example, apparently only the Oxbridge and the famous universities in London are worth mentioning in the UK, and only some of the other universities are judged "reputable"). This is nonsense: quality is generally good across the board in the university systems of most developed countries, and international students attend a very wide range of institutions. Nick-D (talk) 02:38, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. I suppose if you only had time to describe a few, then the highest ranking universities would make sense. However this article seems to suggest that only the best universities are worth attending. Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:56, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I've just tweaked the article a bit more to de-emphasise this. It really is a misunderstanding of where international students study (bear in mind that the worst university in a country like Australia or the UK still has much higher standards than the average university in most of the countries international students come from). Nick-D (talk) 09:26, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

On one hand, it's true that the universities that international students would prefer to attend are the highest ranking ones. However, I also agree with you that international students do study in universities across the entire spectrum. As I mentioned on my talk page, it is not practical to list every single university in the world on this page, so that's why I only mentioned the top ones by name, as these are generally the best known ones. I was not intending to imply that only MIT, Harvard, Oxford and Cambridge are good and everything else is crap, so I apologise if that's the way it came across. Feel free to make any edits you see fit; this is a wiki after all. I think what we really need is some sort of a balance. It is definitely useful to mention some of the top ones, as it does give an overview of the education system. But at the same time, if you can do it, go ahead and describe the national education system as a whole. That would be useful too. The dog2 (talk) 20:33, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Likely incorrect statement about Australian university standards

The recent edit for "the Australian government sets and enforces minimum academic standards that its universities have to maintain" was earlier refuted by Nick-D.

https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Studying_abroad&diff=2473645&oldid=2473644

Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:45, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it's not really the case. The regulatory authority (the Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency) has a "nightwatchman"-type role, and lightly monitors the sector. The general principle is that universities are primarily responsible for setting their own standards and enforcing them (which fits in with their ability to issue degrees in their own right), and the government does not monitor the content or quality of individual courses except when the general monitoring or specific complaints pick up serious problems which the university isn't already acting on. Having this text in the article gave the misleading impression that the government effectively guarantees the quality of courses, which isn't the case at all. While the government sets general standards for the universities to meet and these are enforced through various reporting and monitoring arrangements, the universities actually play the key role in enforcing academic standards and the government only steps in when things go seriously wrong (which is quite rare). Nick-D (talk) 10:07, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I think that pretty much concludes the matter. Andrewssi2 (talk) 14:37, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

New Zealand

The recent edit for "Veterinary medicine" was earlier removed by Nick-D.

https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Studying_abroad&diff=2473669&oldid=2473650

I'm pretty sure that the usual mix of business, accounting and commerce courses are what attracts international students to NZ: there are huge numbers of international students at the university campuses in the centre of Auckland. Courses like veterinary medicine don't attract many international students due to tough admission standards. Nick-D (talk) 09:23, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

That may be true for NZ, though it would surprise me. Sure business-related stuff is important, but in my experience at least as many students go abroad for science & enginnering courses. Not to mention language learning, medicine, dentistry, ... I've been to a UK-trained doctor in India and US-trained dentist in China. Of course veterinary medicine is a possibilty. Pashley (talk) 16:51, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Nicely done, people

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	I've thought for some time that an article along these lines would be a good idea, & I've even created a few red links to it, but have never had the time & energy to actually create one. This Barncompass is to show appreciation for those who have done it. Pashley (talk) 14:01, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Possible additions

I had a document around that I wrote some years back for Chinese students planning on study abroad. I have dropped most of it at Talk:Studying abroad/Extra. Others might take a look, decide what might be incorporated into the main article. Pashley (talk) 15:21, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Some of that is now in the article. Are other parts, like the list of "red brick unis" for the UK or the table for Canada, worth adding too? Pashley (talk) 13:26, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

I would add both, but that needs other opinions. See Talk:Studying_abroad/Extra#The_UK and Canada below it. Pashley (talk) 15:22, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Studying prohibited?

I'd like to discuss this sentence:

In addition, some countries, such as the United States and Canada, explicitly prohibit foreigners from studying on a tourist visa even if their length of stay is short enough to be covered by one.

I don't think this is specific enough. I'm sure no-one is looking to punish foreigners who go to a yoga class or a Bible study while visiting the U.S. (nor, I would think, Canada). So what kinds of study are prohibited on a tourist visa? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:16, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

True, I've been to company workshops in the states before on a standard tourist visa (this may have been tightened up since) --Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:06, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Any other comments from anyone about this phrasing? I think it needs clarification. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:20, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

With a tourist visa, for the US, they probably mean this one. "Travel Purposes Not Permitted On Visitor Visas:" includes studying, however "enrollment in a short recreational course of study, not for credit toward a degree (for example, a two-day cooking class while on vacation)" is apparently OK. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:09, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

It's great that they actually state that. I will add that clarification. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:02, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

GRE/MAT

I was wondering if we should even include the MAT in the first place. It is not very widely accepted, and every programme that accepts the MAT also accepts the GRE, so if you want to go to graduate school in the US, in general it is the GRE you should sit for. And also, I think the GRE description has some inaccuracies. Yes, there are GRE subject tests which are comprehensive examinations on undergraduate knowledge of the particular subject, but these are not always required. What is always required is the GRE general test, which like the SAT is basically testing your English and Math. The dog2 (talk) 23:13, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

I rewrote some. Comment? Pashley (talk) 13:11, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

I may be out of date here. When I considered applying to a Canadian grad school circa 1970, they wanted MAT + the GRE for the field. When I actually went to a British grad school in the 80s, they required none of these tests. Pashley (talk) 13:14, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

I think that looks good. The dog2 (talk) 04:02, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Onine study?

Various places have universities with online study programs. The first I heard of was the British one but other countries also have them, e.g. w:University of the Philippines Open University, Mauritius, etc. and no doubt some have distance learning programs that are called something other than "Open U".

There are also many sources of free courses, e.g. Open U & w:edX, and free course materials, e.g. w:OpenCourseWare.

Should we cover some of these here? Pashley (talk) 14:31, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

You're not exactly studying abroad. In many of these cases, you earn your degree through online correspondence and only travel for graduation, which I won't consider studying abroad. But if there are any courses which involve spending some time in the university's actual campus, then we can consider mentioning that. The dog2 (talk) 23:38, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

True, but it may be an alternative for some people. If you lack the funds, time or visa to go study at a "red brick" or other regular British university, will an Open U degree achieve similar goals? If so, I would say we should mention it since a potential traveller sitting in Mumbai or Mogadishu & dreaming of Oxford may not know it is an option. Pashley (talk) 00:08, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Sure, mention it, but don't elaborate because it does not involve travel. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:08, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

BBC on Canadian education

How Canada became an education superpower Pashley (talk) 16:08, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Academic ranks

Seems like trivia. Why do we need this section? Also, "Instructor" is used in some American universities and not others, and if it is, it may be below Assistant Professor but I'm not sure Assistant Professor exists at every university (I think it does, but I'm not sure). But why does anyone need to know this stuff? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:04, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I thought this would be useful since the article is about studying abroad, and it could be helpful to know the equivalent of different academic ranks in different countries. The key point I was trying to emphasise is that "Prof XXX" is the way to address any university instructor in the U.S. and Canada, while in the U.K. and most of the rest of the Commonwealth, you only address someone as "Prof XXX" if they have attained the rank of professor, and if they haven't, the appropriate mode of address is "Dr XXX". I'm not sure if the explanation about modes of address will make much sense in the absence of information about academic ranks for someone unfamiliar with the systems.

I know that at least at my institution, the entry level rank is "assistant professor", and they get promoted to "associate professor" once they get tenured, and then subsequently get promoted to "professor" when they reach a certain level of seniority. From my conversations with British colleagues, the entry-level rank there is "lecturer", and they subsequently get promoted to "senior lecturer", followed by "reader", and only the most distinguished among the readers will earn the title of "professor" (which requires them to be elected to the position by their colleagues). The dog2 (talk) 22:30, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

"The key point I was trying to emphasise is that "Prof XXX" is the way to address any university instructor in the U.S. and Canada, while in the U.K. and most of the rest of the Commonwealth, you only address someone as "Prof XXX" if they have attained the rank of professor, and if they haven't, the appropriate mode of address is "Dr XXX"."

Make that point. Discard the trivia. I believe "Lecturer" can also be used as a rank in the U.S. I believe professor status is a lot less uniform in rank in the U.S. than in places like England, but really, who cares in a travel article? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:00, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

OK, I discarded what I believe to be trivia. I left the key points in. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:48, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

By the way, in my undergraduate school, a lot of the professors (even deans) were routinely addressed by their first names, and in no way did anyone consider that disrespectful. So it varies by institution, not just by country or even region - and sometimes by individual. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:01, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

I've been a student at both a Canadian & a UK university. In Canada, more-or-less the entire faculty were "professors" & there were grades, associate/assistant/full professor. In the UK, "professor" is a prestigious title & not graded; almost all faculty are "lecturers". A department would have zero to two professors. Pashley (talk) 02:48, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

I've been a student at an Australian university, and the one I went to used "lecturer", "senior lecturer", "associate professor" and "professor", but the generic term to refer to all academic staff is "lecturer". But anyway, point taken about the variation between individuals in terms of mode of address, though it is true that in general, Australians are less formal than Americans, and not just at universities. In Australia, it is perfectly normal for a janitor to have lunch together together with the CEO, while in the U.S. (and admittedly Singapore too), many people would consider the janitor as "not being worthy enough" to sit at the same table as the CEO. And my understanding is that in China, the janitor is considered so low on the social order that he is not even worthy of being seen by the CEO, and is required to stay out of sight when the CEO is around. Class differences are just not as emphasised in Australia as they are in many other countries of the world. The dog2 (talk) 03:41, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Study then stay?

At one point someone in Canada on a student visa who graduated from one of our universities or technical colleges would more-or-less automatically qualify for a permanent immigrant's visa. Canada stopped doing that around 1970, I think under US pressure because lots of draft dodgers were using that method.

I was told early in this century that Australia & New Zealand still did that. Do they? Do others? Pashley (talk) 18:30, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Canada still allows foreign students to stay after graduation under a variety of programs, such as having one year Canadian work experience in a professional, managerial, technical or skilled job. See here. I think the rules are too complicated for us to summarize effectively, and Wikivoyage is about travel, not migration. But if you'd like to try, go ahead. Ground Zero (talk) 21:11, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Australia allows you to apply to stay if your degree is in a field for which there is a labour shortage at the time of your graduation. For instance, if your degree is in accountancy and there happens to be a shortage of accountants at the time of your graduation, then you can apply for a work visa to stay and work as an accountant. However, if they already have enough people in that profession, then tough luck; you have to leave. For the U.S., there's this thing called OPT where you can stay for up to a year to work after you graduate, on the condition that your job is in the same field as your degree. If your major was in science, engineering, technology or mathematics, you get an additional 2 years, which means 3 years in total. The dog2 (talk) 21:23, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Unless things have changed in the last few years, if you can get into a German university, you not only don't have to pay tuition through the Doctorate but then are invited to stay and work. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:12, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

France

@ThunderingTyphoons!: I was wondering if you know much about the French education system. To my knowledge, INSEAD has one of the world's most prestigious MBA programmes, basically equivalent in prestige to the MBA programmes of LBS and the M7 business schools in the US. And I won't be surprised if it attracts many international students from the former colonial empire, so if anyone is knowledgeable, I think we should have something covering France in this article. The dog2 (talk) 20:30, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm afraid that the only in-depth knowledge I have of the French education systen starts at maternelle (6 years old) and ends at CM2 (11 years old), as that is the sector I worked in. Sorry to be of no help that all, but I agree this stuff should be covered. The French higher education system is very different from that which is prevalent in English-speaking countries.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:48, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Long-term stays with school-age children

When retiring or working abroad, travelling long-time (such as cruising around the world on small craft) or working as a digital nomad, you may have school-age children. The article on retiring has two paragraphs on the issue (Retiring abroad#Financial matters), the one on working abroad just mentions schools (Working abroad#Visas: Take a look first), the two other articles don't mention the issue at all. Travelling with children does not discuss long-term stays. A year or a half abroad is too much for just ignoring the issue (for courses to be mentioned in Learn they must last at most 12 months).

The decisions about schooling is very different when a teenager or a young adult chooses to go abroad to study and when you have children you just have to arrange schooling for during your stay abroad, so I am not sure this is the best article for the discussion, but I think spreading it around in 4–6 articles isn't the best approach. I think the theme warrants a separate article, but should we still start a section in e.g. Working abroad?

–LPfi (talk) 19:25, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

I think you have it right; the topic warrants a separate article but for now a section in working abroad is fine.

I have a story about an odd problem that arose for a family with kids abroad. When I was in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia in the 1980s, Idi Amin had been given political asylum there; he and each of his wives had a house. A British couple I worked with had a furious argument when their 7-year-old was invited to a classmate's home. Dad felt that the notion of his kid visiting the home of a mass murderer should not even be considered. Mom argued that it was the wife's home, not the father's, and anyway it was wrong to punish two kids for someone else's crimes. Mom won that argument. Pashley (talk) 21:57, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Nice story. –LPfi (talk) 10:58, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Several articles including Detroit#Learn and Teaching_English#Other_ways_to_teach_abroad mention the International Baccalaureate, a high school diploma that is given by many international schools and accepted by many universities. This warrants a mention in the topic article and a redirect at International Baccalaureate. See also w:International Baccalaureate. Pashley (talk) 22:12, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for that addition. Yes, we have them here too, at least one in Turku and one in Espoo. –LPfi (talk) 07:53, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

I added two paragraphs on schools in Finland#Learn, and a section on Finland#Children to Cope (there were already two sentences in Finland#Work, and I suppose something in See and Do). I think there could be better models on how to handle children's issues in country articles. –LPfi (talk) 10:58, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Sometimes, one parent would move to a country to accompany the kid who is studying abroad. I'm not sure how common it is now, but when I was much younger, many Chinese parents who can afford it would send their kids to school in Singapore in the hopes that they can learn English and later immigrate to America. And often, these kids are really young, as in primary school age, so what usually happens is that the father will stay in China to work while the mother will move to Singapore to look after the kid.

But even today, Singapore is still a common stepping stone for Chinese people to settle in America. Because of the geopolitical tensions, it's very difficult to get a U.S. visa as a Chinese citizen, so many Chinese will first move to Singapore on an investor's visa, apply for Singapore citizenship, then later apply for a U.S. immigrant visa as a Singapore citizen. The dog2 (talk) 15:31, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Makes sense, although it is also tragic. In the described cases, I think the mother and child would integrate easily with the community of other such half-families, unless they choose an uncommon destination. Many of the issues will be the same as for those working abroad, but I can imagine there will be other issues also. I assume the situation is similar to those emigrating for other reasons, such as fleeing a war – all or part of the family. If the stay will be long-term, you need to learn the local language, be it English or something else. I assume our one-year threshold is a bit short for those purposes, but unless you can get asylum or a non-temporary job, the original stay may be for a year or half a year. –LPfi (talk) 15:59, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

So in the case of Singapore, it gives these Chinese kids and mothers a softer landing because many of the locals can speak Chinese as well, whereas if they go directly to America, that's basically throwing them in the deep end. And it isn't as bad for them as war refugees because they can and usually do fly back to China for the school holidays to spend time with their fathers. Also, Singapore has a special visa that allows the mothers to legally stay in Singapore to accompany kids up to the age of 16 who are sent to Singapore to study, while that option doesn't exist in the U.S. The dog2 (talk) 16:37, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Montessori schools are also found around the world, are mentioned in several articles, & are a popular choice for expat parents with younger kids. They should likely have a listing & a redirect as IB do. Pashley (talk) 16:58, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

What I'm mentioning is a little different though. What you describe is for parents who have been posted to work abroad and want to look for a school to send their kids to. In the case I'm mentioning, they are sending the kids to Singapore to study, and the mothers move to Singapore for the specific purpose of looking after the kids. The dog2 (talk) 17:08, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, there are many issues the eventual article should cover, including what you mention. There are a whole set of issues for the w:Third culture kid, see also website. Then there is travel as a w:Unaccompanied minor (passenger) and services like Universal Aunts who used to give my kid meals & a bed in London between the train to/from her British boarding school and her Heathrow flights. Pashley (talk) 18:51, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Level of skills at a certain grade

I wrote, in Working abroad#Children, that "The local schools are an obvious option, but they are not necessarily well equipped to take care of children who don't know the local language and have prior knowledge different to that of their classmates." The dog2 added: "For instance, in many Asian countries, mathematics and science in the local schools are taught to a higher level than in Western countries."

It is good to note that "the West" isn't better in everything, but the problem probably surfaces regardless of from where you come and where you will stay. Southeast Asia is good at science, but there are probably other areas where children from there have challenges. My daughter, on an exchange in France, was astonished about how her class studied English: just repeating phrases and learning translations by rote, instead of concentrating on understanding what they read and translating using their own words. My prejudice is that such learning isn't uncommon in China and Singapore. Teachers here struggle with individual pupils trying the same strategy (especially concerning maths and writing assignments), but I don't know how easy it is for the average foreigner to adjust to a Finnish class.

The language is a challenge for most that aren't native speakers. Even if the parents speak good English, it doesn't follow that their children do – an international school with English as language of instruction can be as big a challenge as the local school. Of course, it helps if parents and teachers have a common language they speak fluently.

For science, choosing a class with pupils one year younger may work. Your classmates wouldn't be that much better on their strengths, and where you are better, you could concentrate on things that are strange for you – reading biology in a foreign language is easier if the subject matter is familiar. A problem lies in knowing whether you really are at a significantly lower level at enough subjects for that strategy to make sense. The other way round, if you are from Singapore, good at science and fluent in English, then, at an IB school in Finland, the teachers can treat you more or less like a talented local.

In some countries (like France?), there is a detailed national curriculum, so teachers can expect pupils to know certain things. I don't know how big the problem is, but my children would struggle if they were assumed to know the states of the U.S., and tens of cities in addition to NY, SF and LA. Are you supposed to know your Shakespeare? In Finland the details are up to municipalities and individual teachers, which requires flexibility even when a pupil changes schools locally, but I assume Finland is the exception. It may be enough not to be much worse at a subject than those on the class with the lowest grades, but adjusting to be seen as a "bad" pupil (I assume there are great differences in how much teachers do such classification) may cause all kinds of problems, at least if the parents aren't alert and good at remedying.

–LPfi (talk) 08:46, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

The U.S. has no national curriculum. Curricula are generally set locally. That's a complicated topic, and it's late, so I'm not going to go into detail. I'll say this in general response to your points, though: some children are more adaptable and quicker studies than others. Sure, it was a challenge for me to learn Malay words for math, science and so forth, but I was able to do so, and putting me a year behind would have been an idiotic thing to do to me and certainly was never under consideration by my parents. I did come back to the U.S. ahead in science and math in a private school (here, not there, where I went to the local public school) and having learned history and geography I never would have learned in the U.S., but I had not turned from a good to a bad student at any time, and it did not ruin my self esteem to require more time to write in Jawi (Malay in the Arabic alphabet) than all my classmates. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:46, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Similar case here in Australia – education is handled by the states and territories and there's no national curriculum. Standards and competition here differ by state too: in South Australia, per se, the competition is way lower than it is than in my home NSW, and it's a similar scenario with uni and jobs. What The dog2 added is true to an extent, though, especially in East and Southeast Asia where year 9 or 10 maths would be the equivalent of 4-unit year 12 maths (the most challenging course which few students do). I'm not too sure about science, but that's due to my lack of knowledge on school standards for science in Asia. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 12:00, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

To some degree, curricula vary from individual school to individual school. New York State is unusual in having a Board of Regents that sets minimum requirements for a Regents Diploma for high school students, but many high school students don't get one and instead get a General Diploma. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:04, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

I can't speak for all of Asia, but in Singapore, by the end of high school, you are expected to know calculus, trigonometry and vectors for your math exams. To my knowledge, you don't learn any of these in the U.S. and Australia until you go to university, and even then, only if your major is in something like math or physics. What is very common in Singapore is for the kids of returning expats from Western countries to struggle with math and science in the local schools, so these parents would end up transferring to their kids to an international school where they can cope better. On the other hand, for those students who move to Singapore from China, they typically struggle with English, but they can ace the math with no problem given that the standard of math students are taught to in China is much higher than in Singapore. And even their struggle with English is usually temporary; in about two years they usually go from hardly knowing any English to getting an A in English. The dog2 (talk) 13:59, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

In Finland, calculus, trigonometry and vectors are included in the "long" maths (chosen by a majority of students, I think) in the gymnasium (preparing for the baccalaureate and the university), although not handled thoroughly or strictly as in mathematics courses at universities. The skipping back one year isn't something I would recommend in general, but I think it could be good for some pupils, if the curriculums are very different. Some pupils will take the challenge of advanced classmates and do well, but I think some combinations of teacher and child could make for problems if the challenge is too hard, especially if the parents don't know how to handle the situation. I think good self-esteem from back home and support from teachers and parents are key for a child to succeed. –LPfi (talk) 17:08, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ By the way, this is anecdotal, but I was told by my classmates who got selected for Math Olympiad training in secondary school that in the mock competitions they had, the local students were all getting 0, while the international students who transferred in from China in 9th grade were all getting perfect scores. That should give you an indication as to how tough the math syllabus is in high schools in China. And just as a reference point, with my high school math from Singapore, I was able to ace the GRE math with no problem. It was only the verbal section that I had to spend time memorising obscure vocabulary for.

Another anecdotal story I have is from one of my high school classmates, who was ranked in the top 5 in Singapore for chemistry, and he was actually very proud of it before he went to the international chemistry olympiad. But after coming back from that, he suddenly became a lot more humble, and he told us that he was completely outclassed by the South Koreans. The Chinese were not allowed to send a team that year because it was being hosted by Taiwan, but he had no doubt that the Chinese would have completely outclassed him too had they been allowed to send a team. The dog2 (talk) 17:17, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

We shouldn't count only those extremely talented people; also people with mediocre grades move abroad with their family. Also, in most countries there are better and worse schools, expensive private schools often counted among the former. I assume most students not getting the NY Regents Diploma has to do with differences between ambitions in different schools, rather than a choice to concentrate on subjects those schools find more important. I assume Finland is an exception here, with "good" and "bad" schools only in the big cities, and some schools in small towns, where everybody is admitted, faring very well in national tests, such as the baccalaureate.

I have the impression that the high level in science in Singapore is uniform, but aren't there big differences between schools in China? I could imagine that the Chinese you meet in Singapore are among those who can use money on private lessons and choose their schools.

When choosing schools, one should note the difference between schools where pupils do a good job, and schools where the teachers do a good job – it is easier to get good students to get good results. Having ambitious classmates often helps to keep your motivation and to learn much, but you might not want to have to compete with the most brilliant ones, who additionally study all nights, which to my understanding is common in many countries in East and Southeast Asia. In Finland pupils get nearly as good results with much more relaxed studies.

–LPfi (talk) 18:05, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

It's true that some schools are better than others, but there is a national curriculum that all government schools have to follow. In Singapore, all the most prestigious schools are government schools. The stereotype of private schools is that they are for rich kids who are not very smart. So no matter what school you go to in Singapore, there is some minimum standard they have to meet, but the more prestigious schools will usually have harder school exams so that you are better prepared when you sit for the actual national exams at the end of high school (which are the same across the country). Things are a little biased though because from 7th grade onwards, you need to test into these prestigious schools. I'm not familiar with the situation in China, but not all the Chinese students who study in Singapore come from rich families. The Singapore government also gives scholarships to Chinese students to study in Singapore from 9th-12th grades, and many of the people who get these scholarships come from poor and working class families, and hope to use this stint in Singapore as a stepping stone to eventually move to America to settle. Usually, these aren't even the top students in China because the cream of the crop will usually go straight to America without the need for a stepping stone, but despite that, they are still competitive with the cream of the crop in Singapore. The dog2 (talk) 18:25, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Dog, your knowledge about what people learn in high school in the U.S. is very limited. Trig was already an absolutely standard 11th-grade class and required for a NY State Regents Diploma when I was in high school (class of '83), and calculus is a common course in the senior year (I didn't have it, but I went to High School of Performing Arts). And the difference between the Regents Diploma and General Diploma is precisely that you have to pass a series of courses and take Regents exams to get a Regents Diploma and the General Diploma doesn't require all of those courses. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:43, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Why do you suppose more of those folks don't want to stay in Singapore? They might do better economically there, and they don't have to face anti-Asian racism. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:45, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

In Singapore, I did trig in 8th grade, and calculus in 10th grade. Although in the case of calculus, it was part of a separate subject called "additional mathematics", which is more advanced than the regular mathematics syllabus. If you don't study that, then you will learn calculus in 12th grade as part of the standard math curriculum. And sure, there are some who want to stay in Singapore, but the American dream is something that has been so deeply etched into world culture that America is the place where all the world's top talent congregates, and is still where you can make the most money and get the most recognition if you are truly the best of the best. Granted, things may have changed now given the geopolitical situation, but when I used to visit China, back when U.S.-China relations were more cordial, most of the most talented young Chinese dreamt of going to Harvard or MIT and eventually settling in America. The dog2 (talk) 22:42, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

What years did you do algebra and geometry? We had those in our freshman (9th-grade) and sophomore (10th) years. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:20, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

If you meant at a basic introductory level, we did algebra in 6th grade, and geometry in 2nd grade. But if you're talking about the more serious stuff, then it would be 7th grade and 5th grade respectively. The dog2 (talk) 02:38, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

When did you learn long division and fractions? I believe I remember being required to know them in 4th grade, though I had already learned some before that (but my older brother was teaching me stuff before I was taught it in school). Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:49, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ If I recall correctly, fractions were in first grade, but long division was only in third grade. But we didn't get to decimals until fifth grade. The dog2 (talk) 04:44, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

You were adding 3/5 and 2/3 in 1st grade? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:49, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Oh, not that advanced. It was just more like knowing what is 1/3, what is 1/2 and so on. That kind of fraction arithmetic you describe where the denominator is not the same is more like 5th grade. The dog2 (talk) 06:42, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Right. We knew in kindergarten what 1/2 or 1/4 of a cake was, but when I say fractions, I mean doing arithmetic on fractions by common denominator. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:17, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

That makes sense. In Singapore, unlike primary school, kindergarten is not compulsory. So while I went to kindergarten, there are people whose parents are too poor to afford to send them to kindergarten. So the primary school syllabus has to re-teach some of these things to ensure those who were to poor to go to kindergarten had the chance to catch up. The dog2 (talk) 15:05, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Half-day kindergarten was free for me at my local public school, but a lot of my 1st-grade classmates hadn't gone to kindergarten, so they were illiterate while I had been reading for 2 years already, read the entire class library within the first 2 months, and then was bored the rest of the year when I wasn't being brutalized. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:27, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

 :-(

Neither here is kindergarten compulsory or free, but one year of pre-school (half-day) is. That doesn't change the fact that some children learn to read sooner than others (I know at least one who started writing as three years old), or pick up common denominator arithmetic while their classmates are struggling with addition. There are other differences: some pupils need structure, some need freedom, some need to hear, some need to do. The solution is good teachers with enough resources to differentiate. I've heard quite some fraction of restless pupils making a mess are smart ones who are bored – and therefore get bad grades (and some are quiet and bored and still get bad grades).

–LPfi (talk) 20:15, 22 February 2023 (UTC)