Template talk:Overseasjobscam

Forced work warnings in SE Asia articles

Swept in from the pub

The Work sections of many Southeast Asian countries have recently been festooned with very lengthy and dramatic explanations (eg. Cambodia#Work) about the practice of basically taking foreigners hostage and forcing them to work, typically in scam call centers, under the threat of extreme violence. It's a real enough problem, but the scam operators seems to target Chinese speakers almost exclusively, meaning that English Wikivoyage is unlikely to be of much assistance here. Unless there are objections, I'll templatize the warning and cut it down to a few lines or so. Jpatokal (talk) 15:10, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

FWIW, I would expect most Chinese speakers who know at least a decent amount of English to read the English Wikivoyage. As it stands, zh.voy is nothing more than a few skeletons. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 06:30, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

@Jpatokal: Thanks for your opinion. For the following reasons I disagree with removing the warningbox templates from these articles, simply because they "only affect Chinese or Chinese-speaking people":

1. Chinese or Chinese-speaking people are not the only victims: there have been Malaysians, Vietnamese, Filipinos, and even Americans fell into victim of these heinous modern slavery schemes (all links are in Chinese, though you can verify by Google translate).
2. By practice it is OK to leave nationality-specific security warnings in Wikivoyage articles. For example we left warning that Chinese visitors should exercise additional precaution in Myanmar and Thailand, due to anti-government activist's hostility towards the Chinese government/state. Alternatively we wrote in Iran that state-sponsored hatred against the USA rarely projects on typical American travellers.
3. Per the opinion of SHB2000, Chinese Wikivoyage is really really empty. See these zh voy article about Cambodia or Thailand, and you'll have an immediate understanding on how empty these articles are. A reasonable Chinese-speaking reader will certainly not go for them, especially if they can read some basic English.

That said, if you have idea on how to simplify things, please leave a note. I indeed placed and consolidated some information at Working abroad#Human trafficking and modern slavery, and I'm OK with leaving a link and brief warning inside each warningbox templates within these affected articles.廣九直通車 (talk) 07:22, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Quick comment from an English speaker (well, kind of) working with Asian (including Chinese students). Many don't have "a decent amount of English", but they do read English WV or Wikipedia (since they are larger) - but they do so using machine translation. It's a new phenomena, but the last few years are really seeing this trend on the rise. Those of you not working with young people or not working with non-English speakesr may not be aware of that, but it's a growing trend. Piotrus (talk) 07:25, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree that we should serve all people. The question is about how much screen real estate of all readers to use. The warning on the country pages should be prominent and thorough enough for a traveller to realise they could be in danger, and the rest should be explained somewhere else. We should also concentrate on how to avoid the scam and how to get away when you still can, while specific facts on what has happened are unimportant. –LPfi (talk) 08:13, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. To be clear, I don't want to remove them entirely, just trim them down a bit and use a shared template, and linking to a longer scam page is perfect. I've sketched out a draft at Template:Overseasjobscam and you can see it in action at Template:Overseasjobscam/Test. Jpatokal (talk) 08:18, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support cutting down the size of the warning to like 25% of the current size and than link out to an article that provides further details to those who are interested. Support User:Jpatokal changes. Travel Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:18, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
• I support reducing the size (Doc James' suggestion of 25% sounds reasonable. Just in case anyone hasn't clicked through, here's what we're talking about:

	WARNING: Telecommunication fraud and illegal remote gambling are rampant in Cambodia, particularly Sihanoukville. Criminal enterprises rely on bait and switch to recruit pawns by offering seemingly high-paid jobs with little to no experience needed. Criminals may also invite victims travel to Cambodia or nearby countries on vacation. When targeting professionals, they may be invited for jobs requiring their profession in Cambodia organized by purported companies. A newer method is by establishing front companies in your country. After victims were employed and were given some tasks in their job, the company organizes a guided tour and uses the tour as a method to traffic victims en masse. In all cases, once arrived and under control, they will resort to coercion, false imprisonment and violence to force victims to work for them. Victims may be subjected to human trafficking and/or illegal organ transplantation. They may also be forced to recruit acquaintances or more travellers to join the enterprise, or simply taken hostage. Deaths caused by torture are not unheard of. Travelers from southeast Asia and Chinese-speaking regions are known to fall victim into this scam. Criminal syndicates have sufficient manpower and weapons to guard their bases, and it is nearly impossible for victims to escape on their own once abducted. Local authorities and the police in Cambodia may collude with criminal enterprises. Seeking help from uninvolved higher authorities or your country's diplomatic mission is probably a better choice to exert pressure and seek freedom. Even if you are freed, you may still face criminal prosecution in your own country for your acts committed in Cambodia. In any case: Always verify the employer's background and its address before your journey — criminal syndicates may leave fake addresses which can be identified through maps. Criminal syndicates may organize seemingly formal interviews or show faked employment environment to cover up their intention. To make their claim more appealing, criminal syndicates may claim that they have booked air tickets and hotels, or have brought insurance on behalf of the victims. Check with airlines, hotels and insurance companies to verify whether the booking is true or simply a facade. If you are going on a guided tour, always check if the travel agent is properly registered in your country. Recruitment ads posted on social media are particularly dangerous. Job advertisements published in places using Traditional Chinese but written in Simplified Chinese may be a hint of fraudulent job offer — they are likely written by Chinese criminal syndicates or Chinese victims. Do not easily trust recruitment ads or travel invitations send by your acquaintances. They could be already abducted and under the control of criminal syndicates — personal promises and experiences can be easily faked by coercion. If you suspect your acquaintances are under danger, STOP. Immediately report to the police to ensure investigation is opened swiftly. Applying for a normal tourist visa to work in a foreign country means the offer is at best illegal, at worst bogus. When arriving at your destination, avoid using transportation offered by the employer. Getting on the vehicle could well mean abduction and slavery aftermath. If you suspect that you are falling victim, STOP, contact your country's diplomatic mission immediately to seek help. Foreign criminal enterprises may also collaborate with gangs in your country to force and subdue victims. If you are first introduced to a hotel in your country to stay for a few days, or is supervised by suspicious persons during recruitment or departure, STOP, you are likely placed under control of local gangs. Try to contact local police by any means. It is much harder to seek freedom once you leave your country. Finally, if the job offer is too good to be true, it probably is. If you cannot ascertain the validity of the offer, reject it without hesitation. The following report hotlines may be useful if you unfortunately fall into victim. Seeking help from Facebook accounts of Cambodian government agencies may also help. However, make sure that your report and conversation are private and secure. Cambodia National Police: ☏ 0312012345 ☏ 0316012345 Cambodia National Police, Sihanoukville Branch: ☏ 011 506 677 ☏ 011 516 677 ☏ 011 526 677 Official WeChat account of Minister of the Interior Sar Kheng (who was in charge of dealing with the problem): ☏ +855 092 686 969
	Government travel advisories Hong Kong
	(Information last updated 19 Aug 2022)

That warning is longer than most articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:45, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Indeed. It should be collapisble at least. Also, it seems Cambodia-specific, so it should not be used in other SE Asia articles unless it is rewritten. Piotrus (talk) 03:47, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Here's the proposed template, with parameters used for Cambodia-specific content. Jpatokal (talk) 04:04, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

WARNING: Overseas job scams are rampant in Cambodia, particularly Sihanoukville. People are lured in by offers of a high-paid job with little to no experience or work visa needed, then held hostage under threats of violence and forced to work in call centers, online gambling, etc. See Human trafficking for details. Chinese speakers are most frequently targeted, but others have been trapped as well. If you or somebody you know have been caught in this scam, contact your country's diplomatic mission, or local authorities at: Cambodia National Police: ☏ 0312012345 ☏ 0316012345 Cambodia National Police, Sihanoukville Branch: ☏ 011 506 677 ☏ 011 516 677 ☏ 011 526 677 Official WeChat account of Minister of the Interior Sar Kheng (who was in charge of dealing with the problem): ☏ +855 092 686 969

Government travel advisories Hong Kong

@Jpatokal: Thanks for your template work, and this specific warning box maintains the seriousness of the warning, yet is more slim and redirects a bulk of the information under Working abroad#Human trafficking and modern slavery. I support your solution.廣九直通車 (talk) 07:26, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Ah, and I also just made the variable related to "2" (contact list for local authorities) to be an option, so that if we typed nothing in there, we won't get ugly unfilled items. Like, for example in rebel-held area in Myanmar (where criminals establish their bases due to complex environment), it's pointless to contact the Burmese police as they have no control over these area.廣九直通車 (talk) 07:36, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Perfect, thank you. I'll add some docs to the template and swap it into the relevant SE Asia country articles. Jpatokal (talk) 03:04, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Let me check what code. Tailsultimatefan3891 (t | c | ca) 03:00, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Template:Overseasjobscam

Swept in from the pub

Template:Overseasjobscam Does anybody know if this is still relevant? If no one does, at what time threshold do we call this irrelevant? This is currently displayed on: Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar, Myawaddy, Northern Myanmar, Sihanoukville, Southeastern Myanmar and Tachileik. At what point do we call this? My plan is that if no one has any further details on this within the next week or two, I'll just mass remove these from the pages, and propose the template for deletion. Brycehughes (talk) 02:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like a good plan to me.

We do have some warnings at Volunteer_travel#Be_wary, Working_abroad#Stay_safe & Teaching_English#Risks. I think those are all we need, though some other articles might need links to those. Pashley (talk) 05:38, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Are you suggesting integrating some of the wording into the articles? I could see adding a sentence or two to the work sections of Thailand, Cambodia, Laos and Myanmar. Brycehughes (talk) 06:05, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

The other day I found out that Wikivoyage has mw:Extension:Labeled Section Transclusion enabled, which allows parts of page text to be included into another page without being turned into proper templates. It might be helpful in this case. Daggerstab (talk) 09:34, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

The template is addressing "Chinese speakers", but this is the English Wikivoyage. So, I think the warning should be (and is) given at the Chinese Wikivoyage. FredTC (talk) 11:03, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Could {{seealso|Working_abroad#Stay_safe}} replace all uses of the template? Pashley (talk) 14:48, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

News sites say the scam is still ongoing. Thailand, Cambodia, Myanmar 1, Myanmar 2, Myanmar 3, Laos. And it's now targetting new countries for scammers to traffick (e.g. Africa, South America and UK) who are fluent in English that they previously have not recruited from. I recommend keeping this note. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 15:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Today the Bangkok Post reports about it, making the impression that it certainly is not a small scale thing. --FredTC (talk) 05:56, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I think that's reason enough to keep it. I would only include it in the Work sections of Thailand, Cambodia, Laos and Myanmar though – any objections to removing it from the child articles? Brycehughes (talk) 21:08, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Any objections going once... going twice... Brycehughes (talk) 23:26, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

It wouldn't hurt to keep the notice in child articles, but to revise the notice to mention that it's targetting both Chinese and English speakers. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 05:44, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

So, looking at Myawaddy, Northern Myanmar, Sihanoukville, Southeastern Myanmar and Tachileik... is there any reason that the warning box is on these particular child articles specifically? I'm not opposed to keeping them on the child articles if there's a specific reason to put them there (for example, from my experience perhaps Sihanoukville would deserve it), but I am not comfortable with a simple inheritance-from-parent situation – where does it end? OhanaUnited do you know if there are specific reasons in these child cases or is this just casual inheritance? Brycehughes (talk) 01:16, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

All the child articles seem to be recently and explicitly mentioned as scam centres. Tachileik, Sihanoukville, Myawaddy. The scam area in Myawaddy even has an Wikipedia entry called KK Park. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 06:03, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. As for Northern Myanmar and Southeastern Myanmar? Would you oppose removing the warning from those? Brycehughes (talk) 14:21, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed it from those two regional articles. The rest remain. Feel free to revert. Brycehughes (talk) 22:46, 21 November 2024 (UTC)