Wikivoyage talk:Postal codes

Distinguish ourselves from WT?

Lengthy discussion swept from the pub:

I propose that we slightly distinguish ourselves from WT by being less USA-centric.

Our primary rule is "The traveller comes first", so our default language for article creation should remain USA English since, now that many Chinese are learning that particular variety of English, it may have already achieved a plurality of use amongst the approximately 2.1 billion potential travellers in the world that have a working knowledge of English.

However, I believe that same primary rule means we should, by default, adopt the 24 hour clock in articles (rather than the AM PM system).

Even travellers from the USA (who have had no encounter with the 24 hour clock in military, police, aviation and medical applications) will have to come to terms with the 24 hour clock system when they consult airline timetables in China, railway schedules in Malaysia and restaurant opening hours in Germany so we do them no disservice to be precise in our travel guide.

I believe that same primary rule of tcf also means that we should use post codes for those civilised countries such as Canada and Wales where they provide a useful degree of precision.

(Go to Google Maps and enter G2 4NB to see how useful post codes can be in some countries). --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 17:41, 23 September 2012 (CEST)

• Support. I also think the prohibition on post codes leads to a lot of unnecessary editing work. There's never any harm in them that I can think of. (WV-en) Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:15, 24 September 2012 (CEST)
• Don't support. I didn't know you could lookup postal codes like that, and I agree it's helpful... but an address is even more useful for the traveller so why include the postal code? It also won't work in places like the US and New Zealand (where post/zip codes cover large areas) so it's a policy that will have checkered application. I also prefer to leave the time expressed in whatever the local usage is. It's not perfect, but it makes more sense than saying North American articles have to use the 24 hour clock even though it's rarely used outside of train and plane schedules, or forcing the AM/PM system elsewhere in the world. -Shaund (talk) 07:02, 24 September 2012 (CEST)

You may have misunderstood my proposals and thought them more dogmatic than what I actually wrote.

I am not suggesting that we leave out any part of the address and neither am I suggesting that we use postal codes in any situation where they are neither useful nor an integral part of addressing information. The traveller comes first so I am just suggesting the removal of the current blanket ban on post codes, useful or not.

The suggestion to use the 24hour clock as the default style is analogous to the current default position of using US English; it would allow for the alternative prolix method to be used for a good reason. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 07:51, 24 September 2012 (CEST)

Thanks for clarifying. I'm OK with having the 24 hour clock as the default where it's not clear which system is used. When I was in Barcelona, I saw both 12 and 24 hour times so I wasn't sure how to translate that to Wikivoyage. A default would help.

I'm still not convinced about postal codes though. -Shaund (talk) 16:26, 24 September 2012 (CEST)

There is no default to US English. Instead, there is an agreement that certain countries default to US English, others to UK English, and others to whatever the local standard English is (e.g., in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa). (WV-en) Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:28, 24 September 2012 (CEST)

Our policy article Wikivoyage:Spelling currently states: "If the destination has no history of using English and no clear preference for the variety to use, we prefer US English spelling. This isn't because US English is somehow better or to stomp on the rights, heritage, and cultures of other English-speaking countries. We just need to pick one default spelling style for consistency. " (my emphasis added) and I have no beef with that. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 09:41, 24 September 2012 (CEST)

• Support. I am not concerned about the postal code usage, but the 24 hr clock is definitely a good idea. Riggwelter (talk) 09:44, 24 September 2012 (CEST)

• Comment - The postcode sounds like a good idea for places it is useful. In Australia, sometimes postcodes can cover outback areas of hundreds of kilometres. So make it optional. I'd oppose any change to a compulsory 24 hour clock. In Australia, usage is extremely rare. Even as someone who travels a lot and is well-informed on these issues, it still takes me a few moments to decipher the time sometimes. I think, continue to allow 24hr in places where it is common, and 12hr in places where that is what travellers will encounter. I support any less Americanization of the wiki, though. JamesA ^>talk 13:35, 24 September 2012 (CEST)
• Support for time and postal code. Nicolas1981 (talk) 08:08, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Optional postal code use (i)

Summary: May I now conclude that there is a consensus that: We should use post codes for listings in those countries where they provide a useful degree of precision.?

Anybody still opposed to introducing a little appropriate flexibility? --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 11:08, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

I'm for postcodes in places where they're useful. I'm also for the 24hr clock across the board; if you can't remove one dozen from two dozen or less, you shouldn't be let out without an umbrella to follow.(WV-en) Travelpleb (talk) 11:39, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

My current summary of consensus is just with regard to postal coding.

I don't yet think there is a clear consensus as to: By default, adopt the 24 hour clock in articles (rather than the AM PM system).' even though, as a default, this change in policy would still allow, (similar to the varieties of English policy,) for local (consistent) use (eg in the US and Philippines articles) of the AM PM system. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 11:56, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

There does not seem to be any oppositiomn to using postcodes where they are useful. I favour less prescriptive wording at this stage, and would prefer We may use post codes for listings in those countries where they provide a useful degree of precision. and suggest a list of countries where they are considered to comply with this requirement, and objective criteria for usefulness in this context, because there will otherwise be people making their own interpretations of usefulness and getting upset when somebody else sees it differently and changes the listing. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 12:37, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

Modified consensus summary: We may use post codes for listings in those countries where they provide a useful degree of precision. Note: This does NOT imply that any current addressing information should be removed.

I also Propose that the initial list of countries where they provide a useful degree of precision include: Argentina (only 8 character CPA or Código Postal Argentino, Argentine Postal Code), Canada, Guernsey, Isle of Man, Jersey, Malta, Netherlands, Portugal, UK since these are all countries where the postal code is sufficiently precise to pinpoint a specific code to 1000 m or less (in the case of 7 of these countries to about 30 buildings or less). --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 15:53, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

I'm still not clear on why post codes are useful. They are generally intended for use by post offices for administrative purposes; if the information encoded is decipherable and useful to outside agents, that's just a bonus. By themselves, do they tell the traveler anything useful that they can't already determine from the street address? LtPowers (talk) 16:18, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

Please read all of the discussion above - especially my example using a Scottish Post Code. In the countries listed immediately above, addresses may be variable and usually don't parse as precisely as the (unique) and precise postal codes these countries have available. A practical use for the Traveller is to plug them into a GPS or smart phone. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 16:28, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

I can't comment on other countries, but I strongly disagree with using postal codes in Canadian listings. A Canadian postal code is not more precise than a street address (outside of some rural areas it's pretty much mandatory to have a unique street address in Canada, so ambulances, fire trucks, etc know where to go if needed). I really think -- in the case of Canada anyway -- that it's just unnecessary information. -Shaund (talk) 18:39, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

At the risk of seeming tedious, may I repeat that this proposal does NOT mandate the use of Post Codes anywhere. Not in Canadian listings, not in US listings, nowhere.

It does mean though, that it would be impolite for you to remove them in a few country's listings (without reasoned fore-warning) where other editors have thought them useful and appropriate to add.

And at the risk of seeming picky, "it's pretty much mandatory to have a unique street address in Canada" is rather different from the 100% coverage of Canadian Post Codes. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 19:26, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

No worries, I'm being tedious on this issue. But the point about it being impolite for me to remove postal code listings is very to the point -- I do want to remove postal code listings in Canada.

One reason is (as I've mentioned before) they're not more useful than a street address. You're right, postal codes have 100% coverage. At the same time, according to Wikipedia, 98% of locations in Canada and US can make use of 911 and it's 911 that drives the unique address requirement. For those 2% (or so) that don't have a unique address, it's going to be in rural areas where the postal code covers several square kilometers. In a city, town or village (and most rural areas), the address is always going to be more precise.

Which leads to my second reason, which is it will be inconsistently applied. Some contributors copy the whole shebang from Google (address, city, province, country, postal code) while others just put in the address. As you mentioned, it's not mandated, so over time, listings in a guide will become inconsistent with some having a postal code and some not. This can make the article look messy, and could cause a hang-up if we want to feature the article or make it into a star article (we can get very pedantic about these things).

I'm not wanting to be difficult here, and if postal codes provide useful info in some cases, let's use them. But in the case of Canadian postal codes, I'm really hesitant to add extra information that's not more useful than the information we already provide and will be applied inconsistently within an article. -Shaund (talk) 21:21, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

I suspect that the 7 digit Japanese code also provides a practical degree of precision (being related to land parcels, which are typically very small in urban areas). Does any one have any practical experience of using them in Japan in a GPS or Smarphone? --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 16:36, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

I live in Japan, and navigating by postal code is neither common nor practical. Street addresses are not used, either. The regular Japanese address system is difficult for online mapping in general ... OpenStreetMap and Google Maps are both best searched using place names, not with addresses. In Japan, everything is subdivided, but the system varies widely, and while areas have numbers, streets and buildings generally don't, which means you frequently can't interpolate a location given its address. Even locals may know how to navigate to a given address. For accurately describing something's location, GPS is by far the most useful tool for a traveler (or resident). --Orcrist (talk) 14:16, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

I have looked at the link to google maps you provided above, and the postal code gives a point value on the map, i.e. it indicates a point presumably within the area defined by the postal code. What is not clear is where the boundaries of the area defined by that code are, so the possible error is not shown on the map, so I still don't know how useful it would be for locating an address. Within 1000m is a fairly large error - some places the town itself would be smaller. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 19:00, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

You misunderstand the precision of a British Post Code. In the G2 4NB example, because it is in a dense city, this postcode example is precise to the extent of describing one particular 1859 tenement at the junction of Bath Lane and Holland Street. The marker point on the Google example is approximately 3m from where I am writing this.

A Scottish highlands postcode will cover a much larger area, but the granularity depends on how many addresses are covered. That is the essential difference between the modern semantic postcodes in the countries I have listed and more primitive "administrative boundary" postal codes in countries like the US.

In none of the advanced countries presently specified would a postal code specify more than a handful of buildings - even small villages and hamlets have many postal codes to be useful and allow precision!

Putting it another way, tapping a British Post Code into a competent GPS will always allow me to drive to so precise a position that I will have to get out and WALK when I arrive if I need to get any closer. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 19:26, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

Optional postal code use (ii)

This is an option. At present, I don't have the option to use a Post Code in a Scottish listing - even though it would help the most important person in our hierarchy, the Traveller, use a GPS quickly and easily --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 19:26, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

Frank, you are advocating a system with which many of us are very unfamiliar. I am trying to get a reasonable picture of the usefulness of the system. Earlier you used 1000m as an indication of necessary accuracy to be eligible for use, which as a general rule is too vague to be useful.

No. You yourself suggested that we specify which were the countries where editors are allowed to use postal codes in listings (in other words, pre-define which countries were exempt from the current draconian ban). Instead of just introducing an arbitrary list of exempt countries, I have suggested a metric by which we can measure which actual countries may use postal coding information in listings that is likely to be useful to the traveller: those countries which have (advanced, granular) postal code systems capable of a precision of at least 1000 m or less. All of my listed countries meet that criterion. Most of them will typically provide an accuracy of 20 m or less for the addresses of 95% of their populations. With the British Post Codes which I am most familiar that figure approaches 97%. The literature is extensive and quite technical and I'm sorry that I do not have the time or digital stamina to give an executive summary here. Perhaps a bit of Googling? --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 21:50, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

Accuracy to pinpoint a single building is definitely useful, and I think should be allowed, even encouraged, though not obligatory. However, When I test google maps with alternative codes differing only in the last character, the precision seems considerably less than the precise building (adjacent codes give locations more than a block apart).

British Post Codes are not susceptible to that sort of testing. Many BS compliant Post Codes have not yet been assigned, so if you fabricate or use an incomplete British Post Code you are actually testing how well Google functions as a search engine. If you want to test, use real British Post Codes taken from actual British addresses. In the case of some buildings in Canary Wharf, London you will need to use a sideways view since the granularity is so fine that actual parts of floors within buildings will be specified by their real British Post Code. is that accurate enough? --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 21:50, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

Fair comment, but using google maps as a demo was your choice. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 22:39, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

As I mentioned before, I don't know the system, and am trying to understand it. I would guess that several others have this problem. You are the advocate for using the system, so we can reasonably expect you to explain how it works and how precise it typically would be so we can take an informed position on whether it should be allowed. (It would not trouble me for postcodes to be allowed in any case, but for that proposal I would simply abstain. To support this one I would like to know what I am supporting.)

That's responsible democracy.

I would hope that others who can't find the time to understand the technicalities would also abstain.--W. Frank^e-mail_talk 21:50, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

An analogy I would use is phone numbers for some mythic hermit who has never used a phone - all he needs to know is that phones exist and phone numbers are a system for more easily contacting specific parties with sufficient precision to make listing them for Hotels, Restaurants, Attractions, Embassies and Bars well worth the tiny amount of space they take up. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 21:50, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

In the example you used, the code identifies your building, but does it identify any other buildings, and if so, what is the furthest distance from the map point which has the given code?

In my G2 4NB example, my own Post Code identifies my particular tenement building (and no other) which contains the following addresses:

   Interstop, 136 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NB
   138 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NB
   0/2, 136 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NB
   1/1, 134 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NB
   1/1, 136 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NB
   1/2, 134 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NB
   1/2, 136 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NB
   2/1, 136 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NB
   2/2, 136 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NB
   3/1, 136 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NB
   3/2, 136 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NB
   Basement Flat, 136 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NB

None of the front doors of the addresses above are laterally more than 7 m from the point of the Google map pointer, which gives a bird's eye view of course.

Neither G2 4NC, nor G2 4ND, nor G2 4NE nor G2 4NF Post Codes have yet been allocated, but G2 4NG has for the next most Northerly building to mine:

   Blue Triangle Housing Association, 150 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NG
   The State Bar, 148 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NG
   0/1, 146 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NG
   0/2, 146 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NG
   1/1, 146 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NG
   1/2, 146 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NG
   2/1, 146 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NG
   2/2, 146 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NG
   3/1, 146 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NG
   3/2, 146 Holland Street, GLASGOW, G2 4NG

Some British Apps will also provide altitude information. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 21:50, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

I assume that central Glasgow (and other densely populated areas) is one of the areas where postcodes give the highest resolution. Is this correct? • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 20:41, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

Yes. Conversely Mountain Peaks typically do not have a postal address so, while in some countries postal codes are highly useful for pinpointing, distinguishing and navigating to Hotels, Restaurants, Attractions, Embassies and Bars, etc., postalcodes are entirely useless in every country I know for hill walking or rambling! --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 21:50, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

I take your point, and now that the details are available, others may too. With the information you have provided I can support the proposal, at least for the UK. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 22:39, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

In short, a UK post code describes about 6-10 addresses (sometimes fewer). If they're rural, the area's spread out. If they're urban, there will be several post codes per street. Either way, they're useful. The first half describes the city and district of the city. Beyond that there's no apparent order, changing a letter or number in the second half will point to a completely unrelated location but they very accurately and uniquely describe addresses.

That is useful information for interpreting the results of my experiments with google maps. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 22:39, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

Frank's "1000 m radius" is an upper bound of all the countries he's mentioned. It looks like it's up to us to establish what level of usefulness is worthwhile and what isn't and then find out the precision of each country's postal code system.

Agreed. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 22:39, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

Without going into the sordid forensic detail of what I used to do before I retired, I am reasonably confident that my preliminary list of qualifying countries is both accurate and (currently) exhaustive (with the possible exception of Japan). I'm going to email some of my RCMP contacts about the current Canadian situation since I am somewhat shocked to be told here that a single Canadian Post Code might encompass an entire small town - that certainly was NOT the case when they were originally introduced. Perhaps this was a side effect of the Canadian Postal workers initial industrial action... --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 23:38, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

I think it depends on how you define "small town". The entire village of Lakefield, about 2,700 people, has the same postal code (K0L 2H0) along with a chunk of the surrounding township (it looks like up to 10 km away from Lakefield). Canada Post provides a detailed listing of everything it includes . The Google Maps search, for reference. -Shaund (talk) 00:10, 1 October 2012 (CEST)

I read that Canada's post codes are accurate to an entire small town, a significant part of a medium-sized town, a single side of a city block in larger cities, a single large building or a portion of a very large one, a single (large) institution such as a university or a hospital, or a business that receives large volumes of mail, which looks pretty useful to me.

(WV-en) Travelpleb (talk) 21:03, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

Apparently, in the UK, there's 27 million addresses and 1.7 million postcodes. So that's actually average of about 16 addresses per post code. (WV-en) Travelpleb (talk) 21:15, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

That looks potentially useful to me. I would support allowing inclusion of a code that gives location with that resolution. The Canadian codes appear to be sometimes useful, but not always. I would not oppose their use.

South African postal codes would not be useful. They are accurate only to suburb or small town level. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 22:39, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

Correct. That's why they're not in my exempt list, omitted along with about another 190 countries with either no postal code system or one with insufficient geographical exactitude. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 23:38, 30 September 2012 (CEST)

Help me out, Frank; even with the precision of British post codes, how does that improve on the street address? Even in cases where a unique post code identifies a specific building, or even a specific floor, is that ever more precise than the street address (e.g., "0/1 146 Holland Street, Glasgow")? LtPowers (talk) 01:46, 1 October 2012 (CEST)

Yes, post codes can be more precise than an address. At least for the Googler. An example, a hostel:

YHA Canterbury

Ellerslie, 54 New Dover Road

Kent, CT1 3DT

Canterbury

England

Find that on Google maps using the address. Zoom in. You'll see a Google-generated place marker. You'll think you'll have found your mark.

But no. You're wrong. Now try the post code. You end up on St Christopher's School; which, while not perfect, is the correct side of the road and only one or two buildings from the correct spot.

Conclusion, horrah for UK post codes. (WV-en) Travelpleb (talk) 08:05, 1 October 2012 (CEST)

Good enough for me to support allowing the inclusion of postcodes where they are sufficiently accurate. I am also happy to go with Frank's recommendations, as he has been accurate with information provided so far.

I think a short explanation of why and how to use them should be included on the policy page to explain to those millions who are unfamiliar with their utility if this gets the nod.• • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 08:18, 1 October 2012 (CEST)

Postal codes are primarily for sorting mail more easily by machines. As a travel guide, I don't really see how they are of much help to travellers. Imagine a traveller standing in a street carrying a guide—a street address will help the traveller find a particular listing, a map will help, but a postal code will not. In a few countries it might be of some, but an address or a map will be even more precise and better. Besides, if we'd have different postal code rules for different countries, this would create even less consistency than we already have in formatting. --Globe-trotter (talk) 17:10, 1 October 2012 (CEST)

I'd perhaps rather see us make better use of geographic coordinates, which have more universal applicability and work just as well in Google Maps. LtPowers (talk) 17:19, 1 October 2012 (CEST)

Better use of geographic coordinates would be ideal. However, the potential for better use of geographic coordinates does not make postcodes valueless. Usefulness to the traveller comes before consistent formatting the way I understand the guiding principles of this wiki. To provide the best value to the traveller we must make use of what is currently available. Postcodes are often more easily available than geographic coordinates. I will concede that it is not particularly useful to have both postcode and accurate coordinates in a listing. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 18:46, 1 October 2012 (CEST)

Optional postal code use (iii)

As Peter so often does, Peter (Southwood) has nutshelled things nicely above.

I concur that, if available, accurate geographic co-ordinates are far more useful to most rich-world and technologically competent travellers than postal codes. My next (annoying) project should probably be to get the use of geographic co-ordinates allowed in listings too (annoying grin)...

However, we are already relatively unique among on-line sources in trying to think of even poorer and armchair travellers (eg. by trying to include all the information here without travellers having to use a slow or non-existent internet connection to click links) and I would like to give a specific (if far fetched example) of where a Post Code might be useful to a poor traveller:

There is an elderly Irish priest currently located in the Tawi Tawi islands of the Philippines archipelago. He is 91 and has continuously been a mendicant missionary in various boondocks since just before the occupying Japanese forces left. He has finally been persuaded to retire after more than 68 years of unstinting service. He has no living relatives left back home in Co. Down, Northern Ireland but the Vatican will make all the travel arrangements and pay for them all. World War II was still being fought when Sean left the seminary in Maynooth and was able to make the long sea journey, travelling on both a (neutral) Eire passport and a Vatican laissez passer via Spain, Mozambique and occupied Malaya to Manila and thence to Dapitan and Zamboanga and then by outrigger canoes to his remote maritime parish. He has not been home to Europe since 1951 - even when his Mother died - since news of the funeral reached him too late. He wants to return home to Newry to die but doubts whether any of his friends or the B&B's or Hotels that he knew, as a boy pre-war, have survived. There is no mobile, let alone Internet coverage in his maritime parish. He wishes to book pre-arranged accommodation in Newry (since, truthfully, he is a cantankerous old sod and knows that he couldn't tolerate any convent arrangements that the Vatican would arrange).
How to do it?
He discusses the situation with his young 23 year old, South Korean replacement, 곽. 곽 has a brainwave, he will make the two day voyage to Zamboanga, go on-line at one of the many Internet cafe's, print out the Wikivoyage "Sleep" listing section of Newry and take it back to Sean so Sean can make his informed choice.
When he arrives back, Sean has lost his bi-focals overboard. Not to worry,곽 reads Sean our great listings and Sean finally makes his choice. Sean writes a long letter (Sean can write, even without his bi-focals) requesting a reservation and explaining his requirements and giving the Vatican City phone number (in proper international format!) of the curia office that will settle Sean's bill each month. He requests in his letter that his putative hosts meet him at Dublin airport in 5 weeks time. Sean can now pack peacefully and look forward to his final trip. 곽 copies out the address of Sean's chosen Guest House (from the printed out WV listing 곽 made in Zamboanga) on to the front of an envelope and puts Sean's painstakingly crafted letter inside - after noting the estimated monthly cost for a single room. 곽 writes more letters to the curia office so that they can arrange the airline tickets for Sean, a passport expedited by the Irish envoy to the Papal See, and all the other necessary stuff and then gives all 5 letters to a trusted parishioner to paddle to Zamboanga and then post. Four of the 5 letters are definitely correctly addressed and reach the Vatican and Maynooth two weeks later.

However, there are then at least two (farcically unlikely) scenarios.

Scenario 1: 곽 addresses Sean's letter as

The Proprietor
Newry Shamrock B&B
83 Dublin  
St Ireland

Sadly 곽 printed out an old copy of WV from before we slightly changed our listing possibilities. Also, sadly 곽 did not realise the niceties of the political reality in the "North East Atlantic Archipelago" or "Britain and Ireland" (or, less politically correctly, "British Isles") and neither did he understand that the listing did not have a full postal address. Sean's letter spent 8 days getting to Dublin, but then was delivered (very promptly) by a Christmas relief postie to 83 Dublin Street in Coolrock in the Republic of Ireland. Unfortunately, the occupants there had gone to Perth to work for 6 months (after the "Irish economic Tiger" wilted) and nobody did ever meet Sean at the airport. Instead he wandered off looking for a bus and was mugged to death by one of Dublin's many cocaine junkies. The junkies were really pissed off to discover that Sean had nothing of value, not even a watch, and even his banknotes were obsolete Irish punt. However they did get €20 for his brand new Irish passport. Nobody ever did find out who the old "drunk" was lying in the road after he was run over by one of the corporation's finest and he was buried in a pauper's grave.

Scenario 2: 곽 addresses Sean's letter as

The Proprietor
Newry Shamrock B&B
BT34 5HT

luckily 곽 printed out a copy of a listing from WV after we slightly changed our listing possibilities. Although 곽 still did not realise the niceties of the political reality in the "North East Atlantic Archipelago" or "Britain and Ireland" (or, less politically correctly, "British Isles") and neither did he understand that the listing did not have a full postal address, the Postal people in Manila are not stupid and immediately recognised the "BT34 5HT" as representing a UK Post Code and popped Sean's letter into the postbag for London. Sean's letter spent 4 days getting to London, but then was delayed 9 days by industrial action. However it was then delivered (very promptly) by a Christmas relief postie to the Thierafurth Inn, 83 Dublin Road, Kilcoo, NEWRY, BT34 5HT in Northern Ireland. Fortunately the new owners remembered the previous name of "Shamrock B&B", opened and read the heart-touching missive and met Sean at the airport. Turns out that Sean was distantly related to one of the Powers who had died intestate. Sean lives long enough to collect a 14 million euro inheritance and, after establishing a small educational trust fund for his host's daughters, dies in his home town 8 months later. He leaves the balance of his estate split 50/50 between the Church and his former parish. His statue can be seen if you go to the Tawi Tawi islands...

--W. Frank^e-mail_talk 21:10, 1 October 2012 (CEST)

I shall now demonstrate a difficulty that Travelpleb will have to address with the proposed guidance for talk page discussions, in that I would support a proposal to allow geographical coordinates in listings, as mentioned somewhere above, in a position that I have no recommended way of referencing. (actually in this case it is quite easy, 2nd paragraph of this subsection, but it could as easily have been lost in the middle somewhere) • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 22:04, 1 October 2012 (CEST)

Shhhhhhh, Peter.

Coming immediately after my prolix fable, they'll begin to think we're a comedy team... And thanks for biting your tongue! --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 22:13, 1 October 2012 (CEST)

Navigation systems?I

I think one thing was overlooked here. Postal codes are often necessary to correctly program navigation systems (most commonly used when travelling by car, but sometimes with other modes as well), especially with street addresses that may appear in several neighbouring municipalities or districts ecause the street name is so common. In Europe, at least, postal codes are very important for navigation with regard to that. PrinceGloria (talk) 04:13, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree.

Since I see that there have been no objections in the past two weeks, I'll amend the project page so that it's more in line with the consensus achieved. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 02:27, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Canada

I strongly disagree with lumping Canada in with the wretched United States of America as, in Canadian cities (typically anything over 5000 population), a postal code uniquely identifies one side of one block. Contrast this to the US where '13601' is the entire city of Watertown (New York), pop 30000? Not the same system. K7L (talk) 15:33, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

That was certainly my take on Canadian Postal Codes too, but Shaund argued vehemently (above) that they were not useful for Canada and were a "waste of space". Since I have a suspicion you're both Canadians, perhaps you may want to alert him on his talk page to this discussion so the policy page can be amended if necessary? --W. Frank^email_talk 16:29, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Postal Area Codes (Postleitzahlen) in Germany

Swept in from the pub

this is one of several edits where postal area codes (Postleitzahlen) have been removed from an article about Germany as supposedly redundant. I know that this is in line with current policy, but I disagree with policy on that. First of all, an address is only fully clear and unambiguous with the area code. Just google "Goethestraße 20, Berlin" to see what I mean. Second of all, the PLZ will give locals an idea where it is and it will also help if you want to look up the place in google maps or OSM or an old style paper map. Lastly, people are also often immensely proud of their local area code as they often reflect suburbs that have since been annexed or divide a traditionally "red" borough from one where bourgeois Catholicism was strong, one soccer team from another or the "haves" from the "have nots". Perhaps the most iconic example of (former) area codes defining neighborhoods are the two parts of Berlin - Kreuzberg "SO 36" and "SW 61" with the former full of notorious anti-establishment types and surrounded by the wall on three sides and the latter, well, not. So in short we should allow German postal codes and to make this whole thing easier, we should simply add an extra field to listings for the area code to be added. If there is any serious objection that this information is supposed clutter, we can make display of said information and opt-in feature for registered users. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:27, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Just to clarify, does this apply only to Berlin, or more generally to the country as a whole? If the latter, I have no problem modifying policy to add Germany to our exception(s) - this club of one with the UK as the sole member state is awfully lonely.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:06, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Well even a city as seemingly small as Erlangen (~100 000 inhabitants) has several PLZs contained in it; I am not sure how many street addresses need the PLZ as disambiguation there, but if - for example - you send a letter to "Neustadt" (without PLZ) it has a lower chance of getting there than if you send it to [five digit code] without the name of the town, as the latter is much more precise and unique. Side note here, before reunification, there were four digit postal codes and the GDR played a practical joke on the West by giving Weimar the exact same postal code as Bonn - the "old" BRD is often known as the "Bonn Republic" while the failed 1919 constitution was debated passed and signed in Weimar, so yes, the GDR tried to make a political statement out of postal codes. At any rate, postal codes give people a rough indication as to which part of town something is in. They are not "accurate to within a few houses" like in the UK (5 digits can never be) but they can sometimes tell you "wrong side of the tracks". Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:34, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

The Federal Republic had the last laugh of course.The only remotely political postcoding I'm aware of here is Buckingham Palace getting assigned SW1A 1AA. The royal cult of personality is all consuming!

I'm thinking that postal usage is less important on Wikivoyage (otherwise why wouldn't we always including the code as standard?), but the PLZ would be helpful for navigating to the right neighbourhood, especially if the same street names come up a lot in different cities and even between districts of the same city. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:53, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

We talked about this a while back, and I thought that the conclusion was that the policy needed to be changed to be generally more permissive about postal codes, more or less on a "whenever it's useful to the traveler" basis. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:39, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

I've generally been opposed to including postal codes, but now that it seems more people are using them for sat nav, they are useful for travellers. I agree that it is time to loosen the policy, e.g., to allow them to be included "in countries where the postal codes is specific enough to enable its use in navigation apps", or something to that effect. Ground Zero (talk) 02:45, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Well in Nicaragua for instance, the postal code is probably of more use in Managua than elsewhere. By the way, the first digit of the postal code isn't too bad a scheme for subdividing the country if the current scheme ever disagrees with us. And it produces 9 regions, easily reducable to 8 by merging RAAN and RAAS. Hobbitschuster (talk) 09:30, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

And I would say there is no reason why we couldn't use postcodes in some cities of a country, and not others, depending on where they're useful (i.e. if they're useful in Managua, but not other parts of the country). The postcodes in Paris are reasonably useful, as they indicate the arrondissement, but elsewhere in the country most municipalities only have one or a few postcodes, assigned haphazardly. Well, all postcodes in France indicate the department, but most people outside of France don't know the department numbers by heart, so there's little use there as far as the average traveller is concerned! --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:48, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

GPS and postal codes in Europe

Here it says that postal codes can be included where they are useful, and that they are very important for Europe (I added "parts of"). At Wikivoyage:Listings#Template parameters we instead say that they should only be included for the United Kingdom and Germany. This needs to be cleared up.

In Finland street and road names are unique by municipality, so knowing the municipality may be important, the postcode not, unless the navigation software requires it – and that would be by app, not by country, I think.

For countries where postal codes, municipalities or other such information should be added, there should be a note in some obvious place, perhaps together with the time format, currency designation etc. on the country article talk page. I don't remember having seen such notes anywhere.

–LPfi (talk) 17:28, 21 July 2022 (UTC)