Talk:Border crossing

Crossing from US into Canada?

There is a photo here with the caption "49th Parallel, between Canada and the USA. Although here there is no Immigration control, you cannot hike far before being questioned."

I never tried, however I understood that it is possible to 'accidentally' cross the border without anyone being the wiser. Obviously you may be detected however the caption suggests it is almost inevitable. Is this correct? Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:02, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I once heard that (part of) the border is marked by cut down trees and stuff like that and actually pretty visible from aerial photography. Though whether you notice that in the wilderness or being chased by a bear is anybody's guess.. Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:07, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

ah... there it is. I like his videos ;-) Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:10, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

According to w:Canada–United_States_border the border is 8,891 km long, and for the most part not fenced off or anything. They would need to do a LOT of ariel photography to even notice your bear crossings :) --Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:39, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

In Ontario, most of the border is water. That's not true in Québec (45°N) or out west (49°N). Certainly everything from cameras and sensors on the land borders to Predator/Reaper drones over the river has been tried; it's a huge amount of ground to cover and it tends to be cat-and-mouse. Pre-9/11, this was a joke... "Where are you from? Where are you going? For how long? and did you bring us anything we can tax?" and they'd wave you through. It doesn't work that way anymore. On one street in Beebe Plain, Americans need passports to get out of their driveways. K7L (talk) 00:55, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Understood from a legal perspective, but really I'm asking how much actual monitoring of the border is there?

For comparison, the Mexican border is (I believe) is shorter, more strongly patrolled with plenty of fences and local vigilantes, but a fair number of undocumented migrants get through anyhow Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:46, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

The Mexican border has two or three times the number of people covering/guarding about half as much ground, and far more dangerous because folks are more trigger happy and much of the terrain is harsh desert. Certainly there has been a huge increase in monitoring, but it's impossible to be everywhere at once. Some get caught, some do not. K7L (talk) 03:25, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

I have crossed the 49th a couple of times in the Rockies where technically the border is. As you can see from the photo there is no control. Detection is not inevitable however there are ranger control points at narrow pass points on trails. If you have a USA or Canadian passport you can continue but other nationalities have to go through "official" border crossings. Obviously anyone wanting to make the effort can cross the border without controls but eventually you will get into some administrative and legal problems.--Traveler100 (talk) 05:29, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! So would the following caption be accurate? : ""49th Parallel, between Canada and the USA where there are few Immigration controls" Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:21, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Sound good. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:44, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

cold war style border

We right now only seem to have lovely peaceful borders, that don't have the appearance of military installations or prison walls. As we all know, there are more than enough borders in the world with walls or fences or electrified fences or an electrified fence atop a wall... Mounted by vigilantes who "defend socialism/capitalism/their dear leader/good decent society/etc. " from "dose damm immigrunts frum across da boarder whoor' takin' owr' jobs" (or alternatively the capitalist aggressors who want to destroy the workers paradise). Wouldn't it be nice to have a picture of that as well, showing the different approaches to borders from shiny happy Dutch/Belgian to Orwellian nightmare North Korea/South Korea? Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:35, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Just to ask about the whole point of this article, is it to help people cross borders or just to visit them? Check out DMZ for a list of military style borders that you mention. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:41, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Well even some of the scary looking borders can or at least could be crossed legally. the best example is the former "inner-German" border, that was certainly scary looking (especially in Berlin) but actually quite permeable for Westerners with "Westmark", so just showing the borders of one type might be a bit misleading. If you go from Costa Rica to Nicaragua along the Rio Frio (that is from Los Chiles to San Carlos (Nicaragua)) there is an armed border guard halfway through. Scary as shit for most Europeans, but at the same time easy to cross for most Europeans... Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:52, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

AFAIU the main point of the article is to help people who cross borders, giving information about what is happening and where. There should also be examples of onerous controls (e.g. what I've heard, into Belarus) and scary kind of borders, and ones that cannot be crossed. DMZ is as of now just an attraction, but it's definitely worth mentioning as are some other closed borders (many land borders to Algeria, Israel etc.) ϒpsilon (talk) 08:49, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

So what special consideration needs to be given to 'scary borders' in this article? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:35, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Irish border

So given this reversion of my edit, we should discuss this. Yes, the Brexit will have an impact and potentially also an impact on the Irish border, but there is no way as of yet to know how that impact will look like. Maybe Theresa May will wave her magic wand and it wall turn out fine, or maybe we'll get a return to the troubles and the border becomes the next Berlin Wall or maybe Northern Ireland has a vote on what it wants to do and says tally-ho to the UK after all. We don't know and at that point we can only speculate and this page is imho the wrong place for speculation. Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:48, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Non-geographic articles should not dwell on specific cases. If mentioned, they should be illustrating examples, with clear terms. /Yvwv (talk) 22:27, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

So what do you suggest the text to be? Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:33, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

The sentence about the UK and Ireland can be deleted, as the section is not intended to be a complete list of free movement agreements. /Yvwv (talk) 22:42, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Why should it not list all free movement agreements? There are only a few and the one I know of we don't mention (the Nordic passport union) has no effect for the traveler anymore, as it is all Schengen in essence. Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:59, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Although gratifying to too a push back on lists, the amount of free-movement arrangements globally are somewhat small. The amount of those that work for citizen travelers even less. I think that they are noteworthy.

I also think UK and Ireland is noteworthy since many travelers to Europe inevitably get confused between EU and Schengen. In terms of Brexit there really isn't a scenario where the UK will end free movement but allow a free for all of movement to continue across the Irish border. Restrictions will return, even if a compromise is made and the UK makes passage easier, there will still be restrictions in place of the free-movement today.

From a 100% practical standpoint, I see this as a good reason for NI to unite with the Republic of Ireland. But anyway. Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:43, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

If controls - any controls - are introduced between NI and the Republic of Ireland, this might reopen The Troubles. If controls are introduced between NI and Scotland/England/Wales that will only strengthen the centrifugal forces in the UK and might induce NI to leave the UK or seriously consider it. I don't understand why the NI-RoI border can't stay the same it was before the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom entered the EU. After all, the open border predates UK membership in the EU. If Britain wants to kick out EU citizens, they can do that without introducing border controls (and if you have border controls, you'll have to ask the question whether the border should be more than a line in the delightful countryside crossed by countless sheep daily) on the NI-RoI border. At any rate, I agree on the point of listing all existing free movement agreements, though we might remove those that are only proposed, considered or have no impact on normal travelers. Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:59, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

The border issue just shows how intractable the issues around Brexit are. There are few practical scenarios however where there are zero border controls, since the ROI will remain bound by EU free movement and therefore additional free movement across the UK border would render the whole Brexit process as meaningless. The UK could enforce internal border controls between NI and the rest of the UK in order to facilitate a free ROI/NI border, but that would effectively demote NI to a colony. Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:27, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Mercosur free movement

w:Mercosur appears to be silent on that matter - what gives? Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:43, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

@Andrewssi2: do you have any source? Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:37, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Brazilian Mercosur/Mercosul passport

Wikipedia doesn't explicitly talk about it, but plenty of sources on the interwebs around the Mercosur free residence area . Obviously Mercosur has a long way to go before it becomes the same as the EU's free movement, but there is an open pathway to residence for citizens of Mercosur countries and associate-status countries. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 21:43, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Mentioning Hawai'i customs twice

Should the fact that Hawaii imposes customs controls even on those arriving from the Lower 48 or Alaska be mentioned twice as it currently is, or is there a more elegant way of phrasing this? Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:59, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Dunno. It's not really clear from the text whether these are agricultural inspections or full-blown customs stations. K7L (talk) 16:25, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

California border control

I think it is misleading to remove any mention of it given this: https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/plant/PE/ExteriorExclusion/borders.html Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:26, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, it's only being used as an example—the article isn't trying to give a comprehensive list of inspection points that aren't at international borders. But if we include it, we should specify that it only applies at land (and maybe water) crossings, not at airports. Saying that "all travellers to California...are subject to a (rather comprehensive) agricultural inspection" is just not true. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:37, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

In that case, change it to "all overland travellers to California...are subject to a (rather comprehensive) agricultural inspection". The bizarre customs to enter the California Republic are notable as this received notoriety in the Grapes of Wrath era for its misuse to turn penniless Okies away at the Arizona-Cali border. K7L (talk) 14:54, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

I thought "screwing with Okies" was the original purpose of these inspections and they were only "turned down" due to the Feds telling California that they can't have "border controls"... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:22, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Is it even true that all overland travellers have to go through the inspections? Wikipedia and the government website seem to suggest it's only at 16 major crossings, not at the many other smaller crossings. And do Amtrak passengers have to go through them? —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:22, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Other sites confirm that, indeed, some overland routes avoid the inspection stations.[1][2] —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:40, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Dangers of carrying pirated goods?

Swept in from the pub

Stories are told about travellers who get in trouble with police or customs officers for carrying pirated goods (handbags, watches, sunglasses etc) with fake designer labels; the goods can be confiscated and the owner might be prosecuted. Is this a real danger, or are the stories exaggerated? Is advice on pirated goods relevant for shopping or other articles? /Yvwv (talk) 13:59, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

I have heard of people having pirated goods confiscated by customs. I think that prosecution is only likely if you are carrying large quantities of goods - enough to sell, more than just gifts for a couple of friends. This is already mentioned in Shopping#Restrictions - "Copyright or trademark law may also be an issue; dirt cheap copies of various items with high-end brand names are readily available in various places, but they may be confiscated at the border..." AlasdairW (talk) 15:17, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

There is also discussion at China#Brand-name_goods.

As an aside, I detest the use of the term "pirated" here. Copyright or trademark infringers are not at all the same as people with boats and weapons. Pashley (talk) 15:28, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Given that piracy has been romanticized to hell and back and hardly anybody thinks of Somalia or the Malacca Strait when they hear of "pirate".... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:29, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

I thought "Netherlands" (almost) always took the definite article in English?

Regarding the addition about Baarle, the text mentions "Netherlands" more than once without a "the". This scans a-grammatical to me. Am I mistaken? Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:10, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

"Baarle, Netherlands" in the caption seems OK, but every other instance should have "the". Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:30, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Makes sense. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:03, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Edited accordingly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:21, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Budding off interesting borders?

This article is lengthy, and mainly deals with practical concerns of border crossing. The section with interesting borders belongs better among cultural attractions. Should we bud it off to create an individual article about fun or beautiful border destinations? /Yvwv (talk) 17:47, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Interesting borders has been created. Should we shorten the section in this article? /Yvwv (talk) 00:58, 27 January 2024 (UTC)