Talk:Chinese phrasebook

>number measure word _____ "number" here means not a cardinal number (eleven buses) but an ordinal (the eleventh bus), e.g. in Charlotte the eleventh bus goes on North Tryon, the 17th goes on Commonwealth and down Independence, etc. -(WT-en) phma 15:36, 1 Jan 2004 (PST)

Oh, I c, thanks for reminding. Besides, I think I am a little unneutral writting this article: there are a lot of romanized systems for Chinese, pinyin is just one of them. Do I need to make a note for that since people from Taiwan or Hong Kong might not know them at all! :O --(WT-en) yacht(Talk)China 20:56, 1 Jan 2004 (PST)

Odd Choice of example words

I don't know enough Chinese to correct, but I thought it was worth of comment - a couple of the words chosen to highlight pronunciation are often not words in English, like "spall" and "ping" and I have no idea in what dialect the g in genre is pronounced the same as the r in fair. Credit to whoever did it, it's very good, but they might want to think about those ones.

Errors

Big mistakes! I'm gonna start working on pinyin first, but maybe someone can help me.

• 1) There many pinyin phrases where the tones are missing (I can garantee you, a traveller neglecting the tones will not be understood!)
• 2) In the end of the article, traditional Chinese is used. It's clearly said, simplified charachters are being used! (WT-en) LiangHH 09 Jan 2006

Edit: I solved the Pinyin problem. Now, there are only the traditional characters to be converted into simplified. (WT-en) LiangHH

Edit: Everything solved. 3h of work. (WT-en) LiangHH

谢谢你。加油! (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:21, 9 Jan 2006 (EST)

"Mandarin Chinese is the official language of ...Hong Kong, Macau...". 
It's an official language, but just beside Cantonese Chinese and English:

"Chinese and English are the official languages of Hong Kong. Committed to openness and accountability, the Government produces important documents in both English and Chinese. Correspondence with individual members of the public is always in the language appropriate to the recipients. Simultaneous interpretation in English/Cantonese/Putonghua is made available to meetings of the Legislative Council and Government boards and committees as needed." (from the Hong Kong governmental web site: http://www.csb.gov.hk/english/aboutus/org/scsd/1470.html )

Macau: Chinese (Cantonese) and Portuguese are the official languages of Macau.

Tones

Note, please put tone above the correct letter (e.g. xièxie instead of xìexie):

• ai
• ao
• ei
• ie
• iu
• ou
• ue
• uo
• ui

Edits

Why did someone just change words like hùi to hui4??????????

hùi is incorrect, which should be huì.

Someone please revert the page

All,

Apologies, I\'m operating behind a proxy and it appears that when I save a page it adds three /// signs after an open or end quote symbol. Whoever gets to the page first, please revert it back to the last revision by Stephen Mok. Thanks,

steviejojo

Done. Thanks. — (WT-en) Ravikiran 03:41, 26 August 2006 (EDT)

Taiwan

Is this country to be ignored? Their populace generally speaks Mandarin and government functions are in Mandarin. They do not use the simplified script. Therefore, perhaps shouldn't the traditional characters be offered in parentheses, as well as the occasion where there is a Taiwanese specific tone difference? 70.190.49.222 15:28, 14 June 2007 (EDT)

See Chinese phrasebook - Traditional for a version using traditional characters. (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:12, 14 June 2007 (EDT)

Oho, thanks for pointing out what my eye missed! 70.190.49.222 04:46, 16 June 2007 (EDT)

Fixed some jumbled typing stuff...

I don't edit Wikipedia that often, except when I find vandalism or whatnot. Anyways, I found some jumbled "asdlfkjadlfkjdlfkjadflkjdsaflfkj (etc.)" on the front of this page and deleted it. I'm not sure if I need to make one of these entries for that, but I figured I should be on the safe side. Thanks for the wiki entry on this, :D

No need to make a talk entry when fixing something, but unfortunately you removed quite a bit more than just the garbage. I rolled back your change and removed the junk text --(WT-en) Nick 13:26, 31 January 2008 (EST)

Pinyin pronunciation

Chinzh, I'm genuinely weirded out by some of the additions you're making to the pronunciation guides.

j as in jeer if followed by 'u' or 'ü', but like zebra if followed by 'i'

AFAIK pinyin j is always IPA [tɕ] and never [z], which is a voiced alveolar fricative not found in Chinese -- "Beijing" is definitely not pronounced "Beizing" with an English voiced "z"! [tɕ] doesn't exist in English, but Wikipedia describes it as "unaspirated q, not unlike the j in jingle".

q as in cheap if it is followed by 'u', but as in cent if followed by 'i'

Again, always IPA [tɕʰ]. Doesn't exist in English either, but usually equated to the ch of cheap/cheek, strongly aspirated. It's certainly not "t", or are you saying that the Qing Dynasty is actually the Ting Dynasty!?

x as in shoot if before 'u' or 'ü', but as in sag if before 'i'

IPA [ɕ], and AFAIK never [s]. Wikipedia: "Like she, with the lips spread as when you say ee.". (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:17, 8 January 2009 (EST)

I get your point. I think it's a problem of how the sounds are produced with different Chinese accents! For I live in Singapore, and most people from Southern China/Taiwan do not pronounce the Chinese words with the "American 'r' " sound that is present in 'jing', 'qing' and 'xi' which is pronounced as 'zheeng', 'cheeng' and 'shee' (although it is very prominent in the Beijing accent), and so it can be pronounced both ways without causing misunderstanding. (WT-en) chinzh 00:19, 9 January 2009 (EST)

I live in Singapore too, and I prefer the "southern" accent of Mandarin without 儿 all over the place, but for better or worse, standard Mandarin is based on Beijing style, so I've reverted. Might be good to have an infobox on the differences though... (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:07, 9 January 2009 (EST)

As a Chinese language student studying in Beijing, I think it is very important to make sure all of the pronunciation guides (pinyin) on this page on done in southern-accented guoyu instead of Beijing mandarin. After traveling throughout China, I find that it is easier for people to understand me when I speak with a southern accent (not Taiwanese accent, but more of a Shanghai "r-less" accent). Not only is the southern accent easier to pronounce for newbies, but it also easier for people in the south to understand, especially Cantonese speakers that are not proficient in putonghua. With the 'er' thrown in there they get really lost, at least they have a shot at understanding without it, and the Taiwanese give me attitude when I speak Standard/Beijinghua to them. Also, people in Beijing and Standard Mandarin provinces understand southern accent perfectly because of the influx of Taiwanese media and national media coverage, also the large amount of migrant workers. More people speak and understand "r-less" Mandarin, like you both said in Singapore. The Standard Mandarin (r) that is present on some words could be confusing to someone who doesn't understand the mechanics of the language. Chuan4 is much easier to pronounce than chuan(r)4 (串). I agree, get rid of the 儿.

Merging Chinese phrasebook - Traditional into this page

Using Chinese Wikipedia and its sister projects, I have found putting traditional and simplified Chinese in unified wikis with internal converters better than splitting the wikis that would have split edits, which would be hard to coordinate. Therefore, I would like to propose merging Chinese phrasebook - Traditional into this page. Any comments before merging?(WT-en) Jusjih 11:47, 1 February 2011 (EST)

As in stop

The Chinese "d" sound is an unaspirated voiceless stop, the sound in the word "stop", not in the word "do". It is analogous to the Chinese "b" and "g" sounds, which have "spot" and "skin" listed as English examples in this article. I've changed the example accordingly. Mr. Granger (talk) 01:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Remaining tasks

I like this phrasebook and think it could possibly be the second (or would that be the third?) phrasebook to be featured on the front page. It might be pretty much ready now, but I think there's more useful work to be done. One section that looks ripe for additions is "Food": I'd love to see a bunch of vegetables and fruits listed there. The Chinese phrasebook is further along than the Malay phrasebook, but you can see how many different words related to food are in the Malay phrasebook#Eating. Food is just as important in China and other Chinese-speaking areas as it is in Malaysia, so I think the "Food" section should be longer and more detailed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Mandarin universally understood and spoken in China?

Is it really? I know that in the past, there used to be quite a few people in Guangdong, let alone Hong Kong and Macau, who spoke Cantonese but didn't understand Mandarin. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:45, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, except in Hong Kong, Macau and some rural areas. Students are required to study Mandarin Chinese these days. Few people in cities in Mainland China can't understand Mandarin, but many people still can't speak Mandarin fluently. However, when they are trying to speak Mandarin in strong local accent, it's usually possible to figure out what they want to say.--117.71.53.46 08:28, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

It is an interesting aspect of China that a high percentage of the population only speak basic Mandarin. It might be similar to saying the French is universally spoken in Canada, where in fact is is just taught to everyone in school but not used as a main language throughout the country. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:22, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: found this discussion after five years. I doubt many in Tibet or Xinjiang will all understand Mandarin (as they speak Tibetan and Uyghur respectively) although I'm not too sure about that. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:18, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Unvoiced/unaspirated

I'm not sure I understand. Isn't an unvoiced "j" a "ch"? I speak Mandarin only a little but I'm fluent in Malay when in practice, and I know that in Malay, "p" and "t" at the ends of words are unaspirated but at the beginning and middle of words, they are aspirated. I'm not conceptualizing what an unaspirated j would be, since the difference between "j" and "ch" is that the former is voiced. Also, the "zz" in pizza and the "ts" in rats are exactly the same sound in the English I know. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:09, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

It's a good point that English "j" is voiced. Perhaps it would be better to give a word like "itchy" instead of "jeer". I'm not a native speaker, though. The dog2, what do you think? As for "pizza" and "rats", I can imagine someone pronouncing "rats" with exaggerated emphasis and aspirating the "ts" sound, but I agree it's not a perfect example. I don't know of any solid examples of an aspirated "ts" sound in English, though, so I'm not sure how to improve that one. —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:06, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Honestly, I really can't think of anything similar to that sound in English, but I guess the closest you could get is a like a "tz" sound. The pinyin "ch" sound, though, is just like what you would expect in English and Spanish. The "zz" in pizza isn't really correct when you try to pronounce pinyin "z". In fact, I'd say pinyin "j" and pinyin "z" are very similar. And likewise, I'd say pinyin "c" and pinyin "q" are very similar. Pinyin "zh" is actually somewhere between the English "j" and "ch", basically, you could trying saying it as an English "ch" without the puff of air that accompanies it. And pinyin "ch" is pretty much like how you would pronounce it in English - like "ch" in "chair". The dog2 (talk) 16:48, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Please edit at will for greater accuracy. A voiced "ts" would be a "dz", but I think I understand aspirated and unaspirated for "ts", partly because I speak Mandarin a little: Unaspirated means you say the sound but, as The dog2 says in regard to "ch", there's no additional puff of air at the end. It's just lightly touched, with the tongue ending up on the upper teeth (I think) and top of the mouth. Although that's not necessarily that different from how many native English speakers pronounce "rats". Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:49, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

In English, at least in my accent, the "ch" sound seems to be unaspirated when it occurs in the middle of a word. I would suggest "itchy" or "Richard" as examples of unaspirated "ch" sounds. "Itchy" would be the approximation for pinyin "j" and "Richard" for pinyin "zh". What do you think? Would those be better approximations than "jeer" and "jungle"? —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:21, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

I'd say that in the first case, it's definitely a better approximation than English "j". It's not exact since there's really no equivalent in English, but that seems to be the best we can do. In the latter case, I think it could be rather confusing. Since the English I learnt was mainly based on British English, we do pronounce the "ch" in "Richard" exactly the same as how you would pronounce the "ch" in "chair". Really, the only unambiguous way of describing "zh" I can think of is that it's basically halfway between an English "j" and "ch". That sound just does not exist in English, so I'm really having trouble thinking of an equivalent. But as far as pinyin goes, how "c", "s" and "z" differ from "ch", "sh" and "zh" is that you press the tip of your tongue on the roof of your mouth in the latter but not in the former. The dog2 (talk) 20:34, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Merging traditional Chinese into this phrasebook: format

I Talk:Chinese phrasebook - Traditional merging the traditional Chinese phrasebook into this article a while ago, as it's not really two different languages, but the same language written in two different scripts. As there was nobody disagreeing with this on that talk page, I suggest we go ahead with this. But I'm not sure how to format this. For a starter the format is not consistent on this page. For instance compare Chinese_phrasebook#Basics, Chinese_phrasebook#Problems and Chinese_phrasebook#Numbers all use different format. Then there is quite a lot of information we have to put here. We'll have the English sentence, Chinese (simplified characters), Chinese (traditional characters) and Pinyin (romanisation). One possibility would be the following:

Leave me alone.

不要打扰我。 (不要打擾我。) búyào dǎrǎo wǒ

or

Leave me alone.

不要打扰我。 不要打擾我。 (búyào dǎrǎo wǒ)

The second one is closer to Wikivoyage:Phrasebook_article_template but the first one makes in my opinion a better distinction between the tow scripts. I would argue against using cursive font for the Chinese characters, as this will make them even harder to recognise for people wo don't know any Chinese. Theoretically it would also be possible to only highlight the parts with differences, but not sure whether that will be too messy:

Leave me alone.

不要打扰(擾)我。 (búyào dǎrǎo wǒ)

Also note that some of the phrases will be identical in both scripts (你好。) so we'll have to decide whether we want to still repeat it for consistency's sake or just write it once. Anyone else has any ideas or suggestions on how to handle this? Drat70 (talk) 07:51, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree that the third format would be too confusing to be useful. I prefer the other two. Another option would be to use a slash:

不要打扰我。／不要打擾我。 (búyào dǎrǎo wǒ)

—Granger (talk · contribs) 08:39, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I was thinking of the slash as well. The problem I see with this is that it's also used for another function where there is a sentence with alternative words: (A beer/two beers, please. 请给我一杯/两杯啤酒。 (qǐng gěiwǒ yìbēi/liǎngbēi píjiǔ) or ...the bus station? ...汽车站? ...qìchēzhàn? (China) / ...巴士站? ...bāshìzhàn? (Singapore)) --Drat70 (talk) 08:48, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Good point. —Granger (talk · contribs) 08:54, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Merge of phrasebooks with tradtional and simplified script

I have now combined both the simplified and traditional phrasebook, so that in future we won't have to maintain two separate phrasebooks for the same language. Some comments:

• The formatting was rather messy. I tried to standardise it as much as possible, but this definitely needs some more work. Especially the pinyin is used in a very non consistent way, sometimes capitalizing, sometimes not, sometimes using hyphens between syllables, sometimes not.
• There's a lot of cases where the simplified and traditional script are the same for a certain phrase. In those cases I still put the parentheses with the traditional characters. My logic behind this is that if it is not there, there's no way of knowing whether the characters are the same or whether they just hasn't been added yet. I have hesitated quite a bit on whether to do it this way, so if anyone thinks we should remove those duplicates, I'd be glad to hear about that.
• I picked up and corrected some errors in both versions along the way, which makes me think that probably there's a lot more which I wouldn't see because my Chinese is very basic. So it'd be great if a native could have a look through it and correct all the obvious mistakes that have been added over the years.

Going forward it's important that we mirror any changes to the simplified characters in the traditional ones and vice versa. This is quite easy to do, just google simplified/traditional chinese converter and you'll find handy tools to help you with that. Drat70 (talk) 14:55, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Sorry that I just noticed this merger but as a fluent speaker, I'll do whatever I can. That said, there are some terms that differ between countries, and as a Singaporean, I may not know some of the equivalents used in China or Taiwan. That said, I can for the most part converse with a Chinese or Taiwanese person with no issues. The dog2 (talk) 01:20, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

"Chinese cultural invasion"

The article now says "some Taiwanese may be alerted of using Mainland Chinese words, seeing their usage as perceived 'Chinese cultural invasion'." Is this a real problem for travelers? I'm sure I used plenty of mainland words when I visited Taiwan, and I don't remember anyone being upset about it. —Granger (talk · contribs) 04:32, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

When I last visited Taiwan (just before the COVID-19 pandemic hit), I don't recall anybody making a big fuss over my word choice. Granted that Singapore Mandarin is somewhat different from standard Mandarin in mainland China, and I do try to adjust my Mandarin to make it easier to understand when talking to non-Singaporeans, but I highly doubt this is an issue unless you happen to encounter some extremists. Most of my Taiwanese friends are pro-DPP and absolutely loathe the CCP, but they are generally cool with regular Chinese people, and don't get offended over trivial issues like this. The dog2 (talk) 05:31, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

"Have you eaten?" box

@The dog2, Mx. Granger: The "have you eaten" box says

The literal translation of "how are you", Nǐ hǎo ma?, will be understood but may sound stilted and foreign. It's more natural to ask some variation of 你吃饭了吗？ (你吃飯了嗎） Nǐ chī fàn le ma? (Have you eaten?).

However, is it meant to say

The literal translation of "have you eaten" is "how are you", Nǐ hǎo ma?, will be understood but may sound stilted and foreign. It's more natural to ask some variation of 你吃饭了吗？ (你吃飯了嗎） Nǐ chī fàn le ma? (Have you eaten?).

That box seems a bit confusing to me, but asking both of you given that both of you are the only ones here that I know of who speak Mandarin. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:13, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

The point of the box is that although the literal translation of "how are you?" is "nǐ hǎo ma", this phrase is not so commonly used in Chinese. When greeting someone you've met before, it's more common to ask "have you eaten?". Apologies if the current box is confusing; I'll try to make it clearer. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:04, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

That makes more sense. Thanks for clarifying it :) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:09, 26 November 2021 (UTC)