Talk:Cuisine of Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei

A couple of details

This looks very good. A couple of details:

Is it really true that most Malaysians are adept at using chopsticks, nowadays? It's slightly surprising to me if a large number of Malays know how to use them.

Spelling: Belachan (ejaan lama) or belacan (ejaan baru)? I think we should use ejaan baru ("new spelling", which dates from 1972). Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:06, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

When I created the article by copying in from various other articles, I had to adjust the order of some things, but yes, I think it looks good. I've adjusted the paragraph about chopsticks a little so it now says "some" instead of "many". That way, travelers won't go to Malaysia expecting to see the locals using chopsticks. With the spelling, would it make sense to include both names (with the old one in parenthesis), so there is no confusion? You're the expert here so I'll leave it to you to make that decision. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 20:16, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Hold on. You can indeed expect the locals to use chopsticks in Chinese eateries in Malaysia; it's just that many Malays don't know how to use them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:54, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Rename

I think we should re-name it Malaysian and Singaporean cuisine, since both countries have a very similar culinary tradition with very similar flavours. In fact, if you travel around, you could almost consider Singaporean cuisine to be a regional variant of Malaysian cuisine, in the same way that Kuala Lumpur and Penang cuisine are slightly different from each other. Given that Singapore was part of Malaya under British rule, and was part of Malaysia briefly after the British left, this is actually not that surprising. The dog2 (talk) 19:32, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Sure. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:33, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Should this article include Bruneian cuisine too? Brunei is quite small so it may not need to be included in the title but it could still be discussed and grouped with East Malaysian. Gizza ^(roam) 23:27, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Unless it's strangely different from food across the border, sure. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:49, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

I've never been to Brunei so I can't comment on Bruneian cuisine, but if it is very similar to East Malaysian cuisine, then I don't mind including Brunei in the title if people don't find such a long title too unwieldy. The dog2 (talk) 22:07, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure Brunei needs to be included in the name. I'd actually be tempted to keep the name and say that the article also covers Singapore and Brunei, except that Singaporeans wouldn't stand for being conflated with Malaysia in any way, for understandable historical reasons and also due to a more or less healthy or unhealthy rivalry. :-) I could see Bruneians objecting, too, but I think our argument would be that Brunei is a lesser-known country and doesn't get nearly as many visits by foreigners as Malaysia or Singapore. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:06, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I think the name "Malaysian cuisine" is fine, and I can understand making it "Malaysian and Singaporean cuisine" or "Malaysian and Brunei cuisine" but not "Malaysian, Singaporean, and Brunei cuisine". It's too long, especially compared to just "Malaysian cuisine".

A compromise could be to redirect "Singaporean cuisine" or "Brunei cuisine" to this article and keep the current name. Another option is to mention that this article covers multiple cuisines right at the beginning. I think straightforward article titles should be used when possible, but of course if we need to name the article something different we should. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 02:09, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I'm personally not big into identity politics, so whatever. But it would most certainly be offensive to most Singaporeans if you call them Malaysians, and given that Brunei decided not to join Malaysia even when Singapore did in 1963, I won't be surprised if the same applies to Bruneians too. And while I won't get into to much detail here, geopolitically, Singapore and Brunei have a very close relationship (in fact, the Singapore and Brunei currencies are pegged 1:1), despite the fact that Brunei is demographically more similar to Malaysia. So while I'm not particular, those are certainly some things to consider.

Speaking of which, there used to be a "Malaysian and Singaporean cuisine" article back in the days of Wikitravel before a consensus back then was not to have cuisine articles. It's interesting that after so long, the consensus has shifted to wanting these cuisine articles back. The dog2 (talk) 04:09, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Well, if we have to mention all 3 countries, let's call it "The cuisine of Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei". Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:15, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable. All of the variants (e.g. Singaporean and Bruneian cuisine) can become redirects. Gizza ^(roam) 05:01, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

I would leave out the word "the". —Granger (talk · contribs) 05:06, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm happy with Ikan Kekek's suggested title. The dog2 (talk) 05:09, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

[unindent] By the way, about the tangent on the popularity of cuisine articles, I still think very few of them are anywhere close to sufficiently travel-focused. Wikipedia has some excellent articles about the "what" of cuisine; we need to cover the "where". We should be telling people where to go for the best examples of a, b, c, x, y and z dishes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:41, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Interesting point. I'll think about that as I keep working on the Chinese cuisine article. —Granger (talk · contribs) 08:01, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Would w:Malay cuisine be a good name? ϒpsilon (talk) 08:09, 12 September 2018 (UTC) Apparently not, because the article is also about other cuisines in Malaysia and surrounding countries. ϒpsilon (talk) 08:12, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

No, it would be a very inappropriate name, because Malaysian cuisine is the cuisine of the Malays, the Chinese and Indian Malaysians and the Orang Asli, plus the Peranakan/Nyonya, the Malaccan Portuguese, etc. Malaysia is a very diverse country. It's conceivable that someday, this article will become so long and detailed that we might have to split it up, but absolutely not at this point. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:23, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

I think the Chinese cuisine article is promising, as is the Japanese cuisine one. In addition to focusing on where to get what, we should also cover what kind of experiences to expect in different kinds of eateries and etiquette surrounding eating and drinking. In Malaysia, usually things are pretty informal, but that's way less true in Japan or France. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:26, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Of course there are fancier places in Malaysia too, though I will admit that Kuala Lumpur's fine dining scene is not as vibrant as Bangkok's. And in Japan, there's also very casual places if you know where to look; ramen and curry rice places, so instance, are very casual.

But anyway, yes, I think one of the things we need to do is to cover the regional specialities. For instance, if you want bak kut teh, it comes in different styles in different areas. Klang is the most famous, but we have our own variant in Singapore, and over in Sabah, Kota Kinabalu and Sandakan have their own versions of bak kut teh which are also different. With regards to Peranakan cuisine, you may be surprised to know that ayam buah keluak is actually very local to Malacca and Singapore, and most Malaysians not from Malacca don't even know what it is. And I also realised we haven't even covered Eurasian cuisine in the article. Of course, devil's curry / curry debal is their most famous dish, but there are others as well like sugee cake and shephard's pie. The dog2 (talk) 18:54, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

I spent most of my time in Malaysia in Terengganu, with occasional forays into Kelantan, and secondarily in KL and have taken only one brief trip apiece to Malacca and Singapore, so I'm not sure I've actually ever tried ayam buah keluak, and I'm also unfamiliar with specifically Eurasian cuisine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:02, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Look's like nobody has objected for a while, so I will go ahead and re-name if there are no objections in the next 24 hours. The dog2 (talk) 14:54, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Images

Mbrickn just added some nice images. Whoever has the chance: Let's distribute them more or less evenly throughout the article, per Image policy#Minimal use of images:

• Images should be distributed throughout an article, not bunched up in any section.
• Try to avoid having more than 2 or at most 3 successive images without space between them.

Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:29, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Nasi lemak wars

I thought you might enjoy reading this BBC story: http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20191111-where-is-malaysias-national-dish ---- Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:29, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Sago and tapioca

Are they in practice the same nowadays in Malaysia? The word for tapioca in Malay is ubi kayu (w:Cassava), or at least that's what it's obtained from (see w:Tapioca). w:Sago is not about the same plant. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:13, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

What needs to be attributed to Indonesia

Rendang, yes, absolutely, it comes from the Minangkabau. But nasi kuning/nasi kunyit is just glutinous rice with fresh turmeric, boiled in coconut milk, and yellow is the color of royalty throughout Nusantara, so I don't think you'll get many Malaysians to associate it with Indonesia. And in Malaysia, satay Kajang is legendary, so while I would certainly state that the best satay/sate I ever had was in a hole-in-the-wall on the outskirts of Jakarta, I don't think Malaysians would recognize satay as having an Indonesian origin. My feeling is that we could state that these dishes are shared with Indonesia, but that's as far as we should go in this article. Your thoughts? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:52, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm not Malaysian and I've always associated satay as Malaysian. Agree with you. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 04:59, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Sure, we can say that these are shared with Indonesia. In Singapore, we regard rendang as a traditional Malay dish, and it is not specifically associated with Indonesia. But of course, many Singaporeans have been to Indonesia, so we also know that you can order rendang at a nasi padang restaurant. Satay is also considered to be a local Malay dish in Singapore, not a specifically Indonesian dish, but people do know of Kajang satay. I haven't been to Kajang myself, but my parents told me that the Kajang style is slightly different from the style we are used to in Singapore. The dog2 (talk) 18:27, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

I found in one malay website about the history of Sate Kajang, [https://www.jutawanmelayu.com/sejarah-bermulanya-satay-kajang/], Sate Kajang restaurant owner Datuk Samuri Juraimi said selling satay in Kajang was started by Tasmin Sakiban in 1917 who emigrated from Indonesia to Malaysia with his brother. M.akbar.raf (talk) 12:08, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

The earliest photographs of satay seller appeared circa 1870 in Java, Dutch East Indies. M.akbar.raf (talk) 01:06, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

How does when the earliest photograph dates from prove anything? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:56, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, of course, you're right, I'm so sorry, but I couldn't find any evidence that satay is created by Malay people. According to the literature and references in English Wikipedia, It is believed to originate in Java M.akbar.raf (talk) 07:50, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I found in one malay website about the history of Sate Kajang, , Sate Kajang restaurant owner Datuk Samuri Juraimi said selling satay in Kajang was started by Tasmin Sakiban in 1917 who emigrated from Indonesia to Malaysia with his brother. M.akbar.raf (talk) 12:02, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Javanese peoples have migrated to the malaya peninsula since the 15th century, today there are 1.5 million Javanese in Malaysia and 150 thousand in Singapore M.akbar.raf (talk) 04:50, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

And? So far, you haven't proven anything about where satay comes from, and the fact is, Malaysians consider satay, sambal and nasi kuning to be Malaysian. Let me give you an analogy. Pizza originates from Italy, but it is recognized as American in the U.S. So even if you can prove that every Malaysian dish originated in Java 500 years ago, that wouldn't make those dishes not Malaysian. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:53, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

The rendang can be separate into different section in the new, Minang cuisine like the Chinese cuisine section or Indian cuisine section maybe not in Malay cuisine, and I hope I can add the Javanese cuisine section (I talk about the Javanese tribe, not as Indonesian) that sells Javanese food in Singapore and Malaysia in this article. M.akbar.raf (talk) 07:52, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Please add more content, but be careful about what you call not Malay or not Malaysian. Malay and Malaysian culture are mixtures of influences from many places, and Minangkabau people are considered a Malay people in Malaysia, as they are Muslims, speak Malay and have what are recognized in Malaysia as Malay traditions (adat). If you read w:Malaysian Malays, you'll see that people of Javanese descent are also considered Malay in Malaysia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:49, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

I will say, though, that your source about the origins of satay Kajang is interesting and might be worth a mention (though without a link) in the article, if others think it would be within the scope of a travel-related cuisine article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:51, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Likewise, in Singapore, people from all across the Malay Archipelago are classified as "Malay". That includes the Minangkabau, Bugis, Javanese, Orang Laut and so on. Unfortunately, their ancestral languages have not survived in modern-day Singapore, and most of them just speak Malay these days. And even many of the Arabs in Singapore now identify as Malay, since they are mostly Muslim and have largely assimmilated into the Malay community; most of them speak Malay and not Arabic today, though there is now an effort to revive the Arabic language among Singaporean Arabs. The dog2 (talk) 17:32, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Although I also want to add a dual identity can also apply to food. Most of us know that the local Chinese food in Singapore has diverged somewhat from the original versions you can find in China, so the local version wonton noodles for instance is quite different from the versions you will find in Hong Kong or Guangzhou. We consider our local version of wonton noodles to be both Cantonese and Singaporean, and there is absolutely no contradiction in that; it was originally brought to Singapore by Cantonese immigrants, and was modified by those Cantonese immigrants to incorporate influences from the other cultures they came into contact with in Singapore, giving rise to the dish that we know and love today. The same can be said of Malay dishes that originated in Indonesia. They have become so deeply embedded in the local culinary scene that nobody will consider them to be foreign dishes these days. The dog2 (talk) 18:07, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Right. So if we know that satay is originally from Java, and especially if we can cite a report that the original purveyor of satay Kajang was from Java, it's good to mention that, but not in such a way as to say that it's not considered part of Malaysian cuisine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:13, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Where to classify popiah

It's not strictly a Peranakan dish, although it's true that the Peranakans have their own distinctive version. But you can also find the dish in the Hokkien and Teochew speaking parts of China, and even in Singapore, the Hokkien and Teochew people have their own version of popiah that is different from the Peranakan version. And not to mention, you can also find the same dish in Taiwan and among the Chinese community in the Philippines, albeit under a different name. The dog2 (talk) 19:15, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

So let's call it Chinese. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:34, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

This article should be split into Bruneian, Malaysian and Singaporean

Them being former British colonies should not be the cause of putting them together. Brunei, Malaysia and Singapore have cuisines that while share some similarities, are very much distinct from each other. 121.128.126.179 12:30, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

How, from the viewpoint of a visitor, are they so distinct that they belong in different articles? I'm not familiar with Bruneian food, but isn't Singaporean food essentially a type of regional Malaysian food except for the international border? Is it more different from Johorean food than Kelantanese food is? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:53, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Ikan's comment here. WV:TTCF, ultimately. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 02:10, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

I am a Singaporean here, and if I put my own jingoism aside, I would agree with Ikan Kekek here. I've never been to Brunei so I can't comment on Bruneian cuisine. I've been to Sabah though, and I can't imagine Bruneian food being that different form the cuisine of East Malaysia. The dog2 (talk) 04:18, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Curry puffs

@Jpatokal, Ikan Kekek: I'm not sure if "Indian" is the right classification. Growing up in Singapore, my favourite curry puff stalls were mostly owned by Malays. And there's also Chinese-owned curry puff staffs, including Old Chang Kee which has grown into a massive conglomerate. I don't know which community invented it, but I've typically associated it with the Malays. Usually, the Malay curry puffs are simpler, with just potato and curry, while the Chinese ones tend to have more elaborate fillings like chicken and a hard-boiled egg. And with regard to samosas, you can find them quite easily at Indian food stalls and restaurants in Singapore, so curry puffs are considered to be a separate dish from samosas. The dog2 (talk) 17:40, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I wasn't quite sure where to put them either and even Wikipedia offers multiple theories about the origin. Feel free to move under Malay. Jpatokal (talk) 19:41, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I think of curry puffs as Malaysian, not necessarily Malay (I've gotten them from pondok that also serve Chinese noodles, for example), but definitely not Indian and probably more Malay than any other ethnicity. And yes, I've had wonderful samosas in Malaysia, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:51, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, dishes are often made by people not from the community that they originated from. For instance, you can find many satay stalls in Singapore operated by the Chinese, often using non-halal ingredients such as pork. But regardless, satay is generally considered to be a Malay dish, and of course, if you go to a Malay-owned satay stall, it will be halal. The dipping sauce is also slightly different in Chinese-run satay stalls; a pineapple puree is often added to the peanut sauce in the Chinese version, while the traditional Malay version is just straight up peanut and chilli sauce. It's certainly possible a similar situation applies to curry puffs too. The dog2 (talk) 20:17, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Many Cantonese restaurants also include a few belacan dishes on the menu, too, for example, and maybe an asam curry or something, or at least did the last time I was in Malaysia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:22, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Kangkung belacan is a very popular dish at Chinese restaurants in Singapore. But anyway, should we also describe the Chinese version of satay in the article? It certainly originated from the Malay community, and everyone recognises it as a Malay dish, but there is a Chinese version that was modified from the Malay original. The dog2 (talk) 21:37, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Sure, if there's a clear distinction to be made. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:26, 20 November 2023 (UTC)