Wikivoyage:Votes for deletion

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Votes for Deletion

This page lists articles, files and templates that are nominated for deletion. Any Wikivoyager can make a nomination or comment on any nomination. Nominations or comments should follow a rationale based on our current policy.

If our deletion policy leads towards a merge or redirect, then coordinate this on the discussion page of the article.

The purpose of this page is limited to the interpretation and application of our deletion policy. You can discuss what our deletion policies should be on the deletion policy discussion page.

Nominating[edit]

  1. For the article, file or template being proposed for deletion, add a {{vfd}} tag so that people viewing it will know that it is proposed for deletion. The {{vfd}} tag must be the very first thing, right at the very top, before everything else.
  2. Add a link to the article, file or template at the end of the list below, along with the reason why it is being listed for deletion. Sign your recommendation using four tildes ("~~~~"). List one article, file or template per entry.
  3. If you're nominating a file for deletion, make sure it's actually located on the English Wikivoyage and not on Wikimedia Commons.

The basic format for a deletion nomination is:

===[[Chicken]]===
* Not a valid travel article topic. ~~~~

Commenting[edit]

All Wikivoyagers are invited to comment on articles, files or templates listed for deletion. The format for comments is:

===[[Chicken]]===
* '''Delete'''.  Not a valid travel article topic. TravelNut 25:25, 31 Feb 2525 (EDT)
* '''Keep'''.  There is a town in [[Alaska]] called Chicken. ~~~~

When leaving comments you may elect to delete, keep, or redirect the article. If you recommend redirection, you may suggest where it should be redirected to. Any attempt to merge content from an article to some other destination must retain the edit history to comply with the attribution (CC BY-SA) requirements of the free license, so it may be possible to merge and redirect but not to merge and delete. Sign your comment using four tildes ("~~~~").

Deleting, or not[edit]

All nominated articles, files or templates are guilty unless proven innocent. If, after fourteen days of discussion, the consensus is to keep, redirect or merge, then any Wikivoyager should do it. If you are redirecting, please remember to check for broken redirects or double redirects as a result of your move. Remove any VFD notices from that page, and archive the deletion discussion as described in the next section.

If no consensus has emerged to keep the article, file or template, an administrator can delete it. Check if any article links to the article, file or template in question. After removing those links, delete the article, file or template. However, if the file is being deleted because it has been moved to Wikimedia Commons with the same name, do not remove links to the local file, as the links will be automatically be pointed to the file on Commons.

When deleting a template, consider first replacing it wherever it's been transcluded, especially if it served a formatting function. You can do this by adding "subst:" before the template name. Once that's done, you can delete the template without affecting individual uses of it.

Archiving[edit]

After you keep/redirect/merge/delete the article, file or template, move the deletion discussion to the Archives page for the appropriate month. The root Archives page has a directory. Note that it's the month in which the action was taken, rather than when the nomination was first posted, that should be used for the archived discussion; that way, recourse to the deletion log can lead subsequent readers right to the discussion (at least for the pages that were deleted).

When archiving, always make it clear to other editors what the outcome of the discussion was. This can be done by adding the result to the discussion in a separate edit from the one in which you remove the discussion from this page; or you can describe the outcome in the edit summary when you remove the discussion.

If the nominated article, file or template was not deleted, then place another (identical duplicate) copy of the deletion discussion on the discussion page of the article, file or template being kept or redirected.

See also:

Icon delete talk.svg

September 2016[edit]

American Airlines[edit]

  • Pointless redirect (points to "flying" of all things) in violation of policy on articles on companies. Note: I got the distinct feeling I had already nominated this article earlier, but could not find the vfd discussion. Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:11, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • There was a prior nomination at Wikivoyage:Votes_for_deletion/January_2013#American_Airlines which was used to make a w:WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument to keep a redirect for Wikivoyage:Votes_for_deletion/March_2016#Ryanair. I could see keeping these to preserve attribution if they had an edit history with text that had been merged into some other article still extant, but there's nothing interesting in the history - just various redirects to pages on air travel in the United States. The same issues apply to the even more pointless American Eagle redirect. I'd delete both as they contain no useful info and no useful history. K7L (talk) 14:00, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Keep. Redirects such as this make it clear where content about airlines should go, and it avoids leaving the reader who searches this term with nothing but a long list of articles which include mention of the airline. It emphatically does not violate our policy against articles on companies because it is not an article. Powers (talk) 19:55, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
    • Errrm. Please have a look here the way I understand the line on companies redirects are frowned upon unless they are for companies that are more or less synonymous with the concept (e.g. Amtrak as a redirect to rail travel in the United States), though we can certainly argue getting rid of the handful of permitted/grandfathered redirects as well. This redirect (which, I might remind you, points to Flying) is neither permitted by policy - at least the way I understand it - nor does it offer much help to anybody. We could conceivably point that redirect to air travel in the United States, but then we would have to create redirects for a whole many airlines more. Plus, I am not sure American Airlines even still exists, and I definitely will oppose any Trans World Airlines or Pan Am Airlines articles or redirects. Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:32, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Keep. LtPowers makes a compelling argument, redirects are cheap, and Wikivoyage:Deletion policy#Deleting vs. redirecting specifically calls out "a subject that might otherwise be likely to result in creation of an article". -- Ryan • (talk) • 02:25, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
    • We don't have articles on private companies. (Except of course for Disney and a very small handful of other exceptions). If we want to change this policy, we can (though I do not think of that as a good idea), but we currently also have - for similar reasons - a limit on redirects for private companies. As a further aside, please consider where this redirect points. It's not exactly helpful for the hypothetical person to search American Airlines only to be pointed to the most general article possible. Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:30, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
      • It's a redirect, not an article, and guidance on redirects notes that redirects are deleted if "The redirect could be considered self-promotion or spam (see also WV:Don't tout). Individual restaurants, bars, hotels or other businesses should not get redirects, although exceptions are made for large and/or important businesses and services like Amtrak (see #3 in the following section)." -- Ryan • (talk) • 01:41, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
        • Well I interpret the policy differently as also disallowing redirects for private companies and only allowing them in the rare cases when one company has become quasi-synonymous with the concept (it could be called "lex Amtrak" because that's practically the only redirect I would apply it to). I am not quite happy with having redirects for the hundreds of commercial airlines operating international flights all being created as redirects pointing to flying. There is not exactly much gained from having this redirect and it provides a "stuff exists" argument for some hypothetical airline redirect pcv. Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:52, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
          • I agree with Hobbitschuster's reasoning on this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:04, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
            • WV:What is an article? only addresses redirects as alternatives to article creation. It does not explicitly prohibit any kind of redirect, as its topic is articles, not redirects. I understand the concern about proliferating redirects; I would keep the list to the flag carriers of major nations and the three remaining U.S. legacy carriers only. Maybe 20 at the most -- basically, the airlines that a reader might actually use in a search to see whether or not airlines have articles here. Powers (talk) 15:22, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Fringe phenomena[edit]

Per the credibility concern noted on the talk page and the fact that since it was created there doesn't seem to have been much progress made on this, compared to the other articles started at the same time.

Nomination as article originator, from alternate account. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:42, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

If the cryptid material was reformulated in a way as to mark it as "fringe" I may be more inclined to keep it, given that rare-wildlife is an area of serious biological research. That said an article on Rare wildlife that's known to exist (even if rare) might be more acceptable. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 07:57, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Keep. I don't feel strongly about this, but it seems to me, travel to reputedly haunted places and the like is a valid topic, and the article does have some content. ShakespeareFan00, if you don't like the amount of progress, why don't you plunge forward with the changes you'd like to see? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:51, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
The concern is that the article could become a magnet for cranks as well. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 07:57, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
Cranky edits can be reverted. As for the Cryptozoology article, I think it's fun and the topic isn't treated as if it were science. The only thing that bugs me about it is the title, but we can discuss that at Talk:Cryptozoology. I see that I found the name OK when it was a change from "Cryptobiological travel". Anyway, if you have a better suggestion, that talk page is the place to make it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:07, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Keep per Ikan. Powers (talk) 15:24, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
Moved to Fringe phenomena ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:31, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
N.B.: the original title was Paranormal tourism. Powers (talk) 20:52, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Question - Is everyone satisfied with this result, so that we can close this Vfd entry by consensus? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:58, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
  • I would still rather have this deleted as I do not want even the appearance of this wiki supporting unscientific mumbo-jumbo (and debunking it is neither our core mission nor likely to win us many friends in some corners of the web that like to try and vandalize wikis) but I guess the harm will be mostly minor and I do not want to stand in the way of what everybody else seems to agree on. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:51, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
  • If there's any appearance that we're supporting mumbo-jumbo, why can't that be solved with appropriate edits to the article? We needn't debunk everything to not seem to support it, right? Isn't there a way to thread the needle? "Haunted house" tours are very popular in some places, so they're a reason for travel. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:03, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment, I do understand Hobbit's concerns. On the other hand, there are likely travelers interested in this topic too, both people who believe in ghosts and such and people who check out places for the lulz (for instance, what would Loch Ness be without Nessie, or Area 51 without all the UFO stories?). ϒpsilon (talk) 16:04, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
And if a British Historic House or castle doesn't have a Ghost legend, then they are missing out. (tounge in sceptical check) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:46, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Keep per Ikan. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:11, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Keep, possibly rename I think the description at the top should be clearer so that the awkward caveat about literary locations and relgious locations do not need mention. While some religious sites are directly related to occurrences linked to spiritual texts that non-believers and/or historians might dispute, many religious sites and events are indisputably real, such as martyrdom sites and other places associated with real religious figures or events where religious people were involved, as well as religious structures. Religious/Spiritual tourism is not all related to unprovable phenomena. Literary and folktale-related or inspired sites seem clearly out-of-place just by looking at the subheadings and to me don't need mention except that we used the term "folklore" in the heading which can sometimes include folktales.
As far as the "dangers" of having articles about ghosts/hauntings are concerned, I don't think it matters at all whether ghosts are real or not for our purposes. It's a legitimate travel topic that even skeptical or non-believing travelers often partake in to varying degrees. It also relates to Dark tourism in some respects. I think it would be worse not to mention them. If we take a stance on ghosts, would we then take a stance on religion to promote a "Wikivoyage-approved religion" or any other topic deemed "controversial"? We tell travelers what places are known for and why people visit, which is not the same as providing a guarantee that each location has true historic/scientific backing for everything said about it. It's fun to travel to places where legendary events "took place", even if you know or suspect those events never really took place. From what I've seen, we only take stances when the topic is not related to travel (like the former "Marriage in China" article), has serious legal ramifications/could harm the traveler, some rare morality issues that often also relate to the legality issue (we don't have a guide for "pedophile travel"), or "slippery slopes" where travel benefit does not outweigh the downsides. I don't see this as falling into any of those categories. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 13:42, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
What is dark tourism? Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:18, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Dark Tourism encompasses any tourism related to the macabre. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:49, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

October 2016[edit]

Ido phrasebook[edit]

  • Delete. Ido is a made-up language that's spoken by even fewer people than Esperanto. The existence of the Esperanto phrasebook on this site is unfortunate, and I would absolutely support deleting that, too, but its existence shouldn't be used as a justification for adding more non-travel-related phrasebooks. Also see Talk:Phrasebooks#Is there any threshold of usefulness? for further discussion. Ideally, rather than simply deleting the phrasebooks that are not practically travel-related, it would be great if they could be farmed out to some other site. But if a language is not spoken exclusively even by an important minority of people in any location, we shouldn't have a phrasebook for it here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:01, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
    Wikibooks may be a place for those phrasebooks we do not want to maintain. They mostly have books for really learning the language, but a phrasebook could accompany a basic tourists' language primer. --LPfi (talk) 12:56, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Delete. I agree. On Wikipedia I read there are 100-200 'speakers' of Ido worldwide. --ErwinFCG (talk) 07:23, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Keep There's value in being thorough. Wikivoyage took it upon itself to host phrasebooks; Before the migration, Wikibooks had started doing the same but the initiative was aborted after WV joined the fold. Wikivoyage is now the home of phrasebooks within Wikimedia. We can't have a situation where we have Pbooks in all languages except 3 or 4 which are going to have to be hosted in another project. And really, it's going to be 3 or 4. There are very few constructed languages to begin with and it took 10 years after Esperanto was written for Ido to show up. Sure, the travel-value is limited but there is a broader educational value here. As a final point, the policy argument is that Phrasebooks and Wikivoyage:Phrasebook Expedition make no mention at all of a cut-off point of any kind, which means the Ido book conforms to current policy. Acer (talk) 14:06, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Delete. Acer, please read Wikivoyage:Goals and non-goals. Whether an Ido phrasebook has "broader educational value" is beside the point. We are a travel guide and we are interested in providing information relevant to travelers, which in the case of this phrasebook you admitted (perhaps a bit too generously) was "limited". That's case closed as far as policy is concerned. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:15, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
Considering that there are fewer speakers of Manx Gaelic (150) than there are of Ido (200), then I have to ask if we are going to delete that one too? It has been here for 8 years. Esperanto for 10. The last discussion some years back decided to keep it. But that is not even my main point. Wikibooks aborted their phrasebook efforts in favor of Wikivoyage, which means we have a responsibility to curate this material at least until a proper solution can be found. Considering that 99% of the worlds languages are game, I'm asking you to be flexible and generous in your policy interpretation regarding the remaining 1% so we can keep the phrasebook database whole in one place. We have articles on very remote places with very limited travel potential and almost extinct languages (Manx Gaelic actually went extinct, they're trying to revive it), there's no reason to single this one out. Acer (talk) 16:35, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
I do not think we can delete this yet, though that appears to be the obvious thing to do under current WV policy. If Wikibooks dropped phrasebooks in favour of us, we must at least discuss with them before making a decision. I think we need some form of WMF-wide solution, not just one that fits local policy.
Would moving all phrasebooks to Wikibooks make sense? A redirect to Esperanto? Or starting a new Wikilanguage wiki for phrasebooks, grammars, dictionaries, ...? Or creating a phrasebook namespace here or on Wikibooks? Something I haven't thought of? Pashley (talk) 22:09, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
I like your thoughts Pashley. But I don't think we should let this situation fester indefinitely, and I don't like Acer's arguments that the existence of some non-travel-related content justifies adding more of it on this site. At least in the case of Manx, the 150 speakers are localized, but since all of them also speak English, I don't think that phrasebook is all that travel-related, either. So please lay out what you plan to propose and where you plan to start the discussion about it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:53, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
I can articulate some possible solutions and try to handle this together with Wikibooks and/or Wiktionary but it's not a trivial undertaking and I have an upcoming exam at the end of the month. I can get to it in November Acer (talk) 10:04, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
I'd be willing to wait a month or so, or more if necessary. I would keep the VfD template on the phrasebook but propose to postpone any deletion of the article until other options can be explored. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:15, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment I don't have a strong opinion either way, but if it's true that Wikivoyage is where other WMF projects are now sending editors who want to work on phrasebooks then that's a possible avenue of growth for the site, and as such it may be beneficial to be liberal with what phrasebooks are allowed. The only downside I see of allowing an Ido or Esperanto phrasebook is that Wikivoyage will have a small amount of content that doesn't have practical utility for travel, while the upside is that the site would have a more complete set of phrasebooks and gain some passionate editors; in that case the benefits seem greater than the disadvantages. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:45, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
That kind of comment could be made about any kind of non-travel-related content we could choose to allow on this site. I suppose if we decided to become a repository of sports trivia or mythology talk, we might gain editors, too. Do you folks remember when Marriage in China was deleted? That was a much more obviously travel-related article (because it was about someone from outside of China traveling to get married there) than a phrasebook about a made-up language spoken by 150 people around the world, yet it was deleted because there was no consensus that it was germane. So what is our standard now? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:48, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
I think the problem is the following : from the standpoint of Wikimedia as a whole, it makes little sense to spread phrasebooks over a bunch of different projects. For us as a project however, it makes little sense to host content unrelated to travel and it is at least problematic to have travel related content moved from here to another project. Now some phrasebooks clearly have a connection to travel while others not so much. It would however be frustrating for someone who wants to create a phrasebook - whether for a "made up" (all written language exists by fiat to a certain extent) language or for a "natural" one with few speakers - to be pointed here only to be told here they can't do it here either. Frankly I don't know a solution that would let "us" keep "our" phrasebooks without "us" also being the only possible place within Wikimedia for more obscure phrasebooks, even though they make little travel sense and might thus be disallowed. Hobbitschuster (talk) 10:18, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
I understand the problem. So what's the solution? Can we create a different namespace for the phrasebooks or even turn them into a separate sister site, such as WikiPhrasebooks? Maybe spinning them off that way might be the best solution. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:51, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
Having them at Wikibooks would be the obvious solution, but then we would lose control of them. Would people from here work on them or would some be abandoned? Could somebody over there get enthusiastic and develop them in a direction we think makes them less useful for travel? But I think either keeping all of them here or maintaining all of them on Wikibooks are the main options. Having a separate namespace would hardly solve anything. --LPfi (talk) 13:31, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
Although we have a complicated issues with phrasebooks sometimes (consistency in phonetics, relevance of the language in question etc), they are eminently travel related and therefore I would prefer we kept inside WV. Andrewssi2 (talk) 20:16, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
If we're officially the Wiki for all phrasebooks, I think that has to be clearly indicated somewhere (maybe WV:About?), because there is a clear contradiction between requiring all articles to be clearly travel-related and having this additional mission, which overlaps with ttcf but is sometimes tangential to it, at best. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:05, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
We should maintain travel phrasebooks, which implicitly means only those languages relevant to travel. We should not host other kinds of phrasebooks. (And we cannot be the official repository for phrasebooks because we are lacking many languages that people might want to have phrasebooks in.) Powers (talk) 20:56, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
What defines a travel phrasebook? I'd think that it'd be the list of phrases chosen are those which would be used by the voyager - so "which way to the (bus/train/ship/airport)?" and the like. K7L (talk) 00:38, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Powers, I think your argument is a bit tautological, in that if Wikivoyage is the Wiki for all phrasebooks, that means that anyone can start a phrasebook in any language on this site, and the fact that we so far lack Pig Latin and Ubby Dubby phrasebooks (just kidding, sort of, about those "languages") isn't really relevant, because no Wiki is ever fully complete, anyway. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:57, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Let's be real here. The chances of randomly meeting even one of the 200 speakers of Ido during one's travels are microscopic already; the chances of a traveller finding himself in a circumstance where he is completely surrounded by people who do not speak any language other than Ido are literally null. I also agree with Powers that just because the users of some other wiki decided to abandon their own phrasebook project because we happen to have one, that doesn't constrain us to change Wikivoyage policy to conform to Wikibooks' goals. If Wikibooks feels so strongly that phrasebooks for little-used invented languages should exist, they're welcome to restart their own phrasebook project. As for Wikivoyage, we are a travel guide, and nothing other than a travel guide. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:58, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
I'd be fine to clarify scope as 'travel relevant phrasebooks' so as to set the bar high enough so that Ido/esperanto/klingon doesn't meet inclusion, but not so high that a remote foreign language that you could potentially encounter (e.g. Quechua_phrasebook ) is excluded. Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:26, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Quechua is not a close case. Speakers are estimated to number between 8-10 million according to Wikipedia and between 5 and 12 million according to this site, which also gives an estimate of over 8 million. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:56, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
K7L, I don't want your remark to get lost in the shuffle, but discussions about what content phrasebooks should have are more relevant at Wikivoyage talk:Phrasebook Expedition than in a VfD thread on a phrasebook for an invented language. But I'll say while I'm thinking about it that there are certainly things other than directions that are important to say or understand. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:00, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
I wasn't trying to say Quechua was a niche 'borderline' language, but rather that many of those speakers would also be conversant at some level in Spanish. Perhaps Welsh would be comparable. In any case, I was advocating for all phrasebooks with languages that you may require. Andrewssi2 (talk) 04:13, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
I'd go beyond "require" to support the inclusion of a phrasebook for any language that could be useful, even on the basis that knowing a few words of it would produce a positive response in a particular area. I don't think we need a high bar. But if every single one of the speakers of Language X is fully and fluently bilingual in Language Y, and Language X has a few hundred speakers or something, even a few thousand (how many does Manx have?), I think it's hard to justify as really travel-related. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:36, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Hm. Some Sámi languages have those a few hundred speakers. Our phrasebook is about Northern Sámi, which has several thousands, but they are bilingual in the respective national languages. So for getting instructions, a Finnish or Norwegian phrasebook (depending on location) – or even an English one – will probably be more useful, but the "positive response" reason to know "Buorre beaivvi", "Giitu" and the like remains (and recognizing some other words may be nice). I think improving on that phrasebook should not be a high priority, but it would be sad to delete it (and against the spirit of the WMF pjojects, where different languages are allowed to flourish in a way I have not seen elsewhere).
The same could probably be said about any small language with a high percent of speakers among the (traditional) population in some area. There is a difference between communicating with a stranger in a language one is fluent in, and communicating in one's own language, especially if the other language is seen as the language of oppressors, such as may be in many of those regions with small languages and a foreign lingua franca.
--LPfi (talk) 12:51, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
I completely agree with you and appreciate your example. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:18, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

To clarify: When I said "(And we cannot be the official repository for phrasebooks because we are lacking many languages that people might want to have phrasebooks in.)" I was referring to the fact that we have no way to host any phrasebook intended for speakers of languages like Norwegian or Greek or Afrikaans -- languages which do not have Wikivoyage versions. If someone wanted to write a phrasebook for Norwegian-speakers traveling to an English-speaking area, we have no place to host it. Powers (talk) 20:19, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

I hadn't thought of that, and that's certainly true. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:30, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
And neither does Wikibooks... They only have 19 languages editions (and no Norwegian or Greek either), we have 17 (soon to be 18 since Finnish should be launched in a short while, if all goes well). So I don't understand the argument. This discussion is about phrasebooks written in English. We have a practical problem, in that we can't have the same kind of content spread over multiple projects. It's bad for readers, it's bad for writers and it's bad for Wikimedia. Further, it would be bad form to go to the Wikibooks folk and say, hey we'll be keeping all major language phrasebooks but we'll dump the rest here. There's two solutions to the problem, either we keep everything or we move everything. I'm fine with either though I share the sentiment that losing this material would be a net loss for Wikivoyage. The simplest solution by far, is to do nothing. Acer (talk) 21:59, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Acer, I don't think doing nothing is an option. If Wikivoyage is going to officially be the Wiki for all phrasebooks, we need to state that upfront on pages like WV:About, because it's in part an exception to our travel focus. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:54, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
Hm, I hadn't realized there were so few Wikibooks languages. Regardless, I should think that if someone just wanted to write phrasebooks in Norwegian, it would be more acceptable to start a new Wikibooks version than to start a Norwegian Wikivoyage with nothing but phrasebooks in it.
We should not be the "official" wiki for all phrasebooks. We host travel phrasebooks -- phrasebooks with travel-related content and for travel-related languages. Any other phrasebooks or language instruction texts belong on Wikibooks. Powers (talk) 14:00, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
So here's an issue: In the case of Ido phrasebook, Esperanto phrasebook and perhaps Manx phrasebook, can someone approach Wikibooks about taking them? It would be a pity to just delete the phrasebooks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:32, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
If we do want to give them the "unnecessary" ones. I still think having all the English phrasebooks here is the right thing to do, and stating that in our mission statement does not change much. It just means a very small number of extra pages.
If a phrase list is started without travel focus, it should probably be part of a primer on the language, on Wikibooks, but if it is using our templates and guidelines, then having it here is no big problem.
For the other languages: I think somebody starting to do travel phrasebooks in languages lacking a Wikivoyage is quite unlikely, and starting either a Wikivoyage or a Wikibooks in a new language just for such a project is not realistic. A new project needs more contributors. So I do not think this is an issue. The decision to have phrasebooks on Wikivoyage was made on English Wikibooks and English Wikivoyage. It does not bind the other languages, which can arrange the repositories as they like.
--LPfi (talk) 12:17, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
I'm in full agreement with the comment above. I'd also note that there are Esperanto phrasebooks in 7 other WV languages already, so evidently they have no problem with this arrangement. We're also not that far off from having a Wikivoyage edition in Esperanto itself. It doesn't make any sense to me to delete a phrasebook for a language that we'll eventually have an entire edition on. Acer (talk) 13:55, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
I think that we should keep all the phrasebooks in natural languages including less used ones like Manx phrasebook. Although there are a few languages like Manx and Scottish Gaelic which are not required for travel, the traveller can benefit from knowing some of the language. I often visit places where Scottish Gaelic is spoken. I have never needed to speak it to buy something, but it is nice to be able to say hello to somebody in their own tongue and then have the conversation in English. There are also cultural events (concerts, church services etc) in Gaelic and travellers may feel more comfortable at these with some phases to hand. (We may want to have a different list of phrases for such languages.)
Ido and Esperanto are different. Esperanto may have enough speakers for there to be a small case to be made for its travel use. The highest claimed number of speakers of Ido I could find is 5000, although surprisingly there is an Ido Wikipedia with 26000 articles, and 40 active editors. (Manx has 4,874 pages and 21 active editors). AlasdairW (talk) 14:23, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
I think AlasdairW's rationale is the fairest one I've read yet, but I would disagree with him about Esperanto. It may be that Manx Gaelic has effectively no monolingual first-language speakers, but for me, the saving grace of that phrasebook is the "cultural events" caveat. In Esperanto's case, in addition to being an auxiliary language that does not by design have any monolingual speakers, it's also a constructed language. Therefore, there is no "Esperanto culture" that nonspeakers might miss out on. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 14:44, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
To head this off at the pass, Wikipedia has an article on Esperanto culture which speaks mainly of a corpus of literature and a shared internationalist outlook, but that's different, I think, from "culture" as defined in this discussion - festivals and events, traditions and rituals, holidays, foodways, etc. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 14:49, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
I think the usefulness of Esperanto while travelling is that there are communities of Esperanto speakers all over the globe. With a passing knowledge of Esperanto, which by design should be quite easy to acquire, one can find friendly hosts. A phrasebook-level of fluency is hardly enough, but the phrasebook can provide key phrases for somebody already having a rudimentary command of the language. --LPfi (talk) 18:10, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
Such is the increasingly quixotic goal of the Esperantist movement, yes. Unfortunately, the reality is that English has become the de facto international auxiliary language, with Esperanto - never a widely spoken language even in the best of times - increasingly becoming redundant and irrelevant. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:53, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
English? America hasn't spoken the Queen's English in many years. K7L (talk) 19:09, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
Neither do you Canadians, regardless of how you spell "centre" and "colour". Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:51, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
If I may, this isn't just about the Ido and Manx and Esperanto phrasebooks. My concern is if we become the host for phrasebooks, people will start putting in phrases that aren't travel-related. Or creating phrasebooks for languages like Klingon, which may be interesting in very limited contexts, but not really useful for travel. Powers (talk) 20:32, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
I haven't commented on this so far, but I think we should keep just the phrasebooks that travelers could need. I mean, is there anywhere in the world where you would be able to use let alone need Ido for travel-related things like taking a taxi, ordering food etc.? We shouldn't be the main repository for all WMF's phrasebooks. The rest are better hosted on Wikibooks, Wikiversity, Wiktionary or elsewhere. This "other place" could also have a more "academic" set of phrasebooks of languages we cover here, aiming at language learners, so that if someone wants to add vocabulary beyond that which average travelers would need, they could add it there, together with grammar and such.
Tangentially, in Wikivoyage:Destination_of_the_month_candidates#Igbo_phrasebook we discussed whether external links should be allowed in phrasebooks. I think if there would be a WMF project hosting a more "academic" set of phrasebooks, we'd have someplace to point readers who want to learn more than just buying a bus ticket or ordering food, and at the same time we wouldn't need to potentially open up the floodgates for all kinds of questionable external links. ϒpsilon (talk) 21:16, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
User:LtPowers Thank you. These are valid points that I can try to address. Regarding the first one, about content, I'd be fine with limiting the scope here to travel related phrases. Even if we didn't limit it, I think in practice that's what would happen anyway, but I don't mind being formal about it. The reason I support a content based cutoff as opposed to a language based one is that the scope of every Wikimedia project is always content based. If we are going to be doing travel phrasebooks then Wikibooks or Wiktionary can do general ones. That works, different subject matters, different approaches.
When you cut by language then you have the same type of content spread across multiple projects and that's a no-no. You'd be sending travel related phrasebooks in a couple languages off to another project while keeping the rest here. One of three things will happen then, none good.
They'll either refuse to take them, they'll take them and people will follow the precedent and write travel phrasebooks over there in other languages, including ones we have (and they'll do it, the moment there's a content dispute here, the losing side while jump ship and write "their version" over there, and now both projects are competing among themselves, for editors and for googlerank.
Or third, they'll take them so as not to waste good content, they won't allow PB's for languages we have so as not to compete with us and what happened is that you turned Wikibooks into a dumpster for leftovers that don't fit their overall framework and have no room for growth because we cornered the market. It's a dick move.
The content based cutoff you proposed avoids all that, and in fact it's already the nature of our relationship with Wikipedia. Their articles can have general travel sections, but if people want more detail they come here. General PB's in Wikibooks, travel specific here, we can even link back and forth. All good.
As for your concern about languages such as Klingon or Elvish and whatnot, they are not accepted for Wikimedia projects because they are not general-purpose languages. Their vocabulary is limited to their fantasy settings, Klingon has words for spaceships and photon torpedoes, Elvish for swords and magic. They lack vocabulary for mundane concepts. I know this because back in the early days of WP there was actually an attempt to get a Klingon WP going and it was refused because of the limited character of the language. So if we adopt that same criteria, we're in the clear. There it is, I ended up writing much more than I intended, but I hope to have addressed your concerns and maybe reached a middle-ground between the opposing views here. Acer (talk) 21:49, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
Regarding content-based cutoffs, there's still the issue of, if general phrasebooks are hosted at Wikibooks but travel-related content is supposed to be outsourced to Wikivoyage, what happens to travel-related content in Ido, Esperanto, and other languages that WB chooses to host and WV doesn't? Regardless, I suppose ultimately the ball would be in WB's court as to what to do in that case, and for WV's purposes Acer's proposal sounds like the basis for a viable solution. Frankly, though, if we're talking about "dick moves", I think something else that handily qualifies is WB's decision to pull the plug on their own phrasebooks project with the intention that WV should default to being the sole home of phrasebooks within the WMF - thus saddling WV with a whole host of new responsibilities vis-à-vis WB and the WMF, as enumerated in this conversation, which in many cases go far outside the scope of this site - without so much as notifying, let alone gauging the opinion of, the WV community. Consideration for other sites within the WMF family is, frankly, a two-way street. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:28, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
A language with 200 speakers scattered around the world, all at least bilingual if not multilingual, can't have any useful travel-related words or phrases, can it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:01, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
I can't see why it wouldn't. It might be more of a challenge to describe an airport, an X-ray machine and all the post-9/11 paranoia in Latin, though, as the Roman Empire has a good, workable transport system overland in which all roads lead to Rome.
Requiring the ability to translate our usual list of stock travel-related phrases ("Waiter, this steak is raw.", "I believe I am going to feel ill.", "Where are the toilets?", "I did not intend to vomit on your crisp, clean blue uniform, Officer.", "Can I just pay a fine now and make this go away?", "Which way to the train station?", "Which way to the hospital?"...) would exclude languages that don't have a full vocabulary suitable for travel. For instance, PHP as a language can do a Perl of a job of describing Internet access, but try to translate pioneer villages and horse riding and the vocabulary doesn't exist. We therefore don't have a voyagers' PHP phrasebook. K7L (talk) 13:02, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

[unindent] You missed my point, which is that the language itself can't be useful to travelers, given that it has 200 speakers scattered around the world, all of whom are at least bilingual. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:56, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Acer, you seem to be conflating phrasebooks written in constructed languages with phrasebooks written about constructed languages. No one is suggesting writing phrasebooks in Klingon. That would be a matter for the (as you note) never-to-be Klingon Wikivoyage. But a phrasebook about Klingon would be theoretically possible, whether on Wikibooks or here. I don't see why we'd be in the clear for prohibiting a phrasebook about the Klingon language, but prohibiting one about the Ido language wouldn't fly. Powers (talk) 21:25, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
I think that we should only allow phrasebooks of languages which satisfy one of the following:
  • Are spoken by more than 1% (or maybe 0.1%) of the population of a defined area. (For reference Manx is spoken by 2% of the population of the Isle of Man, but Cornish is only spoken by 0.5% of the population of Cornwall)
  • Are officially recognised and used (to some extent) by the local government. (E.g. It is used on some road signs)
  • There is an established Wikipedia in the language.
The first two criteria should cover all the existing phrasebooks except Ido and Esperanto. I have set the % of speakers low because the statistics may be unreliable - what matters is the number that can have a conversation, not the number that are fluent, and the defined area may not match survey boundaries. AlasdairW (talk) 23:34, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

December 2016[edit]

North Slope Borough[edit]

An excessive subdivision with all of two non-redlinks contained in it, "child region" of a parent region that has no other region articles below it. Hobbitschuster (talk) 02:17, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

  • Keep. This article isn't a deletion candidate per WV:Deletion policy. Instead, if it really doesn't merit a standalone article it should be redirected to an appropriate parent region. -- Ryan • (talk) • 02:20, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Speedy keep - again, and as Ryan says, this is simply not a candidate for vfd. Discussions about region divisions belong on talk pages, not here. If no-one responds, either attract some attention in the Pub or wv:rfc, or even simply plunge forward and make the situation better. It does seem, however, that the Arctic Alaska article itself has a rather long list of cities, so before simply redirecting the regions, you should probably check if some kind of (different) subdivision or a complete overhaul of the structure makes sense. JuliasTravels (talk) 22:12, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Make it a redirect to the parent region. --Zerabat (talk) 16:11, 7 December 2016 (UTC)