Talk:Salerno, Paestum and Amalfi

This is not an itinerary. Is it at all useful, and if so, how, or should it be nominated for deletion? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:07, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

I would bet it's copyvio of some Italian tourist agency, made by one of its employees. Utter toutism. Let's nuke this, IMHO. Ibaman (talk) 11:23, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

I suppose the best move is to nominate it for deletion. I'll go ahead and do that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:27, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:Votes for deletion#Salerno Paestum Amalfi. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:30, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Copy of Votes for deletion thread

• Delete. Not an itinerary, not a region and not an extra-region. If any of you can see any use for this incorrectly-formatted article that isn't covered by the individual articles on Salerno, Paestum and Amalfi or the region article on Campania, speak up, but it looks totally useless to me, and I think it should be deleted with no merge of any text or redirect of this term anywhere. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:30, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

  This directory of itineraries on Wikivoyage lists articles about specific journeys. Some traverse continents and could take months to plan and weeks to properly complete, while others demand no more commitment than an afternoon's stroll around a city. Nothing more to say. Anyway I thank you for the time that you dedicate to my article. Golfodisalerno (talk) 22:43, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

  What I can see, it contains one three-day itinerary. What itinerary articles does it list? –LPfi (talk) 16:16, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

I missed that. I guess it does have an embryonic itinerary, shown at the beginning of "Do": Salerno to Paestum to Amalfi and back to Salerno. So should we keep the article but get rid of all of the refs, unnecessary details about each location that are or should be covered in the Salerno, Paestum and Amalfi articles, and other duplicated information ("Stay safe" doesn't seem specifically relevant to this itinerary, but rather, to each place), and change this into an itinerary format? Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:34, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. How can I change to an itinerary format? Suggestion? Golfodisalerno (talk) 22:20, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Describe what sights one could cover during the "walking tour of Salerno", ensure they are properly covered in the city article, suggest when and how to leave for Paestum and check that the connections are covered in the Get in for that article. Likewise for the other towns. If there are issues with getting around, finding meals or accommodation or something else, discuss those in the itinerary article, but list ferry companies, eateries and hotels in the city articles. Take a look at Category:Star itineraries for inspiration and examples. –LPfi (talk) 22:44, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

ok thank you. Golfodisalerno (talk) 23:19, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

• Delete. Also smells of copyvio from some commercial enterprise. Merge whatever useful info available into the respective cities' articles, but at a first glance, there seems to be very little worth salvaging. Ibaman (talk) 15:40, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

  This directory of itineraries on Wikivoyage lists articles about specific journeys. Some traverse continents and could take months to plan and weeks to properly complete, while others demand no more commitment than an afternoon's stroll around a city. Nothing more to say. Anyway I thank you for the time that you dedicate to my article. Golfodisalerno (talk) 22:43, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 22:02, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

  This directory of itineraries on Wikivoyage lists articles about specific journeys. Some traverse continents and could take months to plan and weeks to properly complete, while others demand no more commitment than an afternoon's stroll around a city. Nothing more to say. Anyway I thank you for the time that you dedicate to my article. Golfodisalerno (talk) 22:43, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think pasting your reply 4 times en masse is going to help. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:56, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

• Delete unless @Golfodisalerno: can explain why it should be kept. Ground Zero (talk) 22:10, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

  This directory of itineraries on Wikivoyage lists articles about specific journeys. Some traverse continents and could take months to plan and weeks to properly complete, while others demand no more commitment than an afternoon's stroll around a city. Nothing more to say. Anyway I thank you for the time that you dedicate to my article. Golfodisalerno (talk) 22:44, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Repeating the same thing doesn't give it more force. How is your article useful, Golfodisalerno? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:50, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Repeating the same criticism against an article that 100% complies with the Wikivoyage axiom (a list of articles about specific trips) no longer gives strength to the criticism. Or not? Golfodisalerno (talk) 22:07, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Taking an aggressive, combative stance in a discussion in a small community is not going to bring others around to your way of thinking. Is this original text, or has it been borrowed from another source? Ground Zero (talk) 22:14, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you. I don't like and don't want to have an aggressive stance with nobody. Anyway I like constructive critics. The text is mine 100%. Golfodisalerno (talk) 22:18, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, but copying your reply and pasting it 4 times doesn't make your case any stronger; it only weakens it. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 04:45, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

• Move any relevant information to Salerno (province), the region where all 3 cities are located and which is in dire need of expansion, and either redirect or delete the existing article. Gizza ^(roam) 06:15, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

  If any content is moved, it would have to be redirected for attribution purposes. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 06:51, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

  I agree. Merge & redirect to Salerno (province). Pashley (talk) 08:47, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

  Let's see if the author gets to making this a real itinerary, now that they have stopped being a robot. That would be ideal. Of course, info that belongs to the province or city articles should be copied there anyway. We don't need to decide on the fate of this page yet in a week. –LPfi (talk) 09:35, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

If the article is kept, I think its name probably needs a tweak, at least by adding hyphens between the city names. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:11, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Would Amalfi Coast be a better redirect? Pashley (talk) 21:37, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Maybe. By the way, I was just looking at a map. Salerno is between Amalfi and Paestum, so should we reconsider the order of the itinerary? Of course that's not a deletion reason. So maybe don't delete? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:33, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

The itinerary as described makes a round trip, starting and ending in Salerno, with the best connections elsewhere. Also, the itinerary includes a ferry trip between the extremes, which you might not want to split up. I don't know the region, so I am not saying this is the best arrangement, but the choice seems to make sense. –LPfi (talk) 12:15, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. In my opinion, Salerno is the perfect hub to explore Salerno itself, and Paestum & Amalfi. Salerno is well served by fast trains like Frecciarossa and Italo, has cheap hotels and restaurant, it's the starting point for train/bus to Paestum and train/ferries to Amalfi. Golfodisalerno (talk) 21:14, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

• OK, so I think we're not simply deleting this. Should we merge and redirect this, or should we just allow 1 year to develop an itinerary article, as usual? Or should further discussion simply be done on the article's talk page? I'm still unconvinced this is a real itinerary article, though. Is merely "Start in one city, go to another and then end up at a third" a real itinerary? But it's at least an embryonic itinerary, once we delete probably more than 90% of the article that is not about going from point A to point B to point C and back to point A. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:29, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

  I assume there is some kind of vision about what the tours in the cities are about. Ideally those would be described more or less in the spirit of Historic churches of Buffalo's East Side, only with three cities involved. –LPfi (talk) 21:54, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

  as of this moment, the article has not changed, the author seems to think it's perfect and is responding to us with sarcasm. The article must, at the very least, be formatted to comply with WV:Itinerary article template, get rid of those horrid bulleted lists of attractions, have the most important of them converted to listings, or else it must be deleted. Ibaman (talk) Ibaman (talk) 11:05, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm not convinced anymore that it should be deleted. The rule is to give 1 year for itinerary articles to potentially be developed, and when I nominated this for deletion, I didn't notice that it does contain the absolute bare bones of an itinerary. I seriously doubt this article could follow the trajectory of Istanbul to Izmir, which went from Vfd to featured, but I think we can delete 95% or so of this incorrectly-formatted article that has lots of content not relevant to an itinerary and then revisit it in a year. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:13, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

I suppose it is easier to work on it and the related articles if anything that is useful is there to be copied to better locations. If the author starts actively working on them, I think it is better to leave any content removal to them. Perhaps the page should be checked after two weeks from now, and if they haven't got around to do something about the text that should be removed, only then cut down on it ourselves. –LPfi (talk) 18:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

That's OK with me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:04, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

• To be clear, I don't support deletion anymore, think we need to keep this as an embryonic itinerary article, but also think that about 95% of it is off-topic and should be deleted, leaving almost nothing for now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:47, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
  • The discussion has now been going on for nearly three weeks, although counting from the 25th, when the vfd template was added, not yet a week. There have been no edits for two weeks. I assume somebody needs to make the page confirm to our itinerary format and then hope that Golfodisalerno could continue from there. They did some edits according to my advice, but adding sights in historic order isn't how to write an itinerary. Ibaman, SHB2000 and Ground Zero: if this article is cut down to an outline itinerary, do you still think it should be deleted, now or soon? I assume it then should be given the one year. –LPfi (talk) 13:02, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
    • If it is cut down to an outline, then the one-year rule would apply, which I think is kind of ridiculous. Some random comes along and dumps a bunch of text into Wikivoyage, and then we have an outline of that person's idea for an itinerary sitting around for a year. But that's what the rule says. Ground Zero (talk) 13:10, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

the article is useless, as GZ said, a text dump, no more, no less. My fingers are itching to press Delete. Ibaman (talk) 14:36, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

+1. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 20:37, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

If this is a genuine tour route, someone might flesh it out in a reasonable, non-touty way. If they don't, we can nominate it for deletion in about a year. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:53, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: This nomination has been up for almost a month. Unfortunately, a consensus seems elusive. I count the votes as follows: User:Ibaman, User:SHB2000, User:Ground Zero for deletion; User:DaGizza, User:Pashley, User:Ikan Kekek, the article starter User:Golfodisalerno and I think I'm correctly reading LPfi's remarks as being for keeping the article (Gizza and Pashley are in favor of moving content, but that is not deletion per Wikivoyage policy). Does anyone have any other thoughts, whether for or against deletion? If so, state them within 24 hours; otherwise, I think a lack of consensus, with 5 votes more or less against outright deletion, would result in keeping the article, with wholesale deletion or merging of content not obviously relevant to the embryonic itinerary and discussions about what to do with the article being possibly continued on its talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:48, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't see the value in keeping an outline for a year and then deleting it then. The creator of the article has not returned to the discussion. Expecting that "someone else" will write a useful article because a passer-by decided to create a page and dump text into it is unrealistic. If anyone is willing to commit to writing an itinerary based on User:Golfodisalerno's idea, I'll change my mind. But we know that we can't rely on User:Someone Else. They're a slacker of the worst . Ground Zero (talk) 22:13, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Well, there's the small matter of Wikivoyage policy. Besides, there have been quite a few cases of people taking on stub or bare outline itineraries and making something usable out of them. We could try contacting some Italian users, if we really care about this, but my approach would be to delete most of the text, leaving a bare bones description that at least wouldn't be doing harm. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:32, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes. I think there is enough content to be kept in the outline that somebody clicking the link won't get too frustrated. The suggested itinerary is probably possible (I trust the author on that), you just have to do the research yourself. –LPfi (talk) 20:48, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

+1. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 05:55, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

• Archived as kept, per consensus. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:33, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Fleshing out the itinerary

"Arrive in Salerno, visit the city and then do two day trips to Paestum and Amalfi" is not a real itinerary, but more suited for Salerno#Go next. To be a real itinerary, there needs to be a walking route or some other kind of recognized, recognizable itinerary route in each city, which then should ideally be mapped in detail. If anyone wants to define and lay out in detail such a detailed route within the next year, this article has a chance of being kept instead of nominated for deletion in a year and deleted. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:20, 7 December 2023 (UTC)