Wikivoyage talk:Deletion policy

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Archived discussions

Delete Over Redirect[edit]

In the current vfd discussion surrounding the Korean county articles that were created, myself and Hobbitschuster have pointed out how illogical it is to make the created articles into redirects just because the user refuses to add descriptions to their listings. The reason given by ThunderingTyphoons! is that it's policy. Although the policy does actually state that redirecting is USUALLY preferred over deletion rather than absolutely, I still think the merging preference in this vfd discussion is a case where the policy goes against TTCF and common sense.

While I agree that merging real places often makes sense, there should generally be some consideration of the destinations being merged (and the articles they are being merged into). That is not the case in this vfd discussion. Users voted to "merge" because they're "real places", but the issues with these articles have nothing to do with the destinations. The issues brought forth in the discussion were that:

  • The article creator is blocked on another Wiki: Not a valid reason to merge their articles
  • The article creator uses sockpuppets: Not a valid reason to merge articles
  • The user's English or translations are poor: Not a valid reason to merge articles
  • The content may be copied from another source: Not a valid reason to merge articles
  • The article creator added listings without descriptions: Not a valid reason to merge articles
  • The article creator doesn't respond to correspondence: Not a valid reason to merge articles.
  • The article creator created too many articles with too little content: May be a valid reason to merge at the moment (I'm not sure), but shouldn't be

Most of the reasons for the nomination are about the user and not the destinations. It seems everyone should have been voting to "Keep", but I'm going to assume that it is the last point that is making everyone vote "merge" (correct me if I'm wrong). If that's the case, I think the only sensible option is to delete them. We should be merging articles that cannot support their own articles, not articles that the creator refuses to add descriptions to. It doesn't serve the traveler to merge every article that a user creates just because they created too many (or for reason related to the user themselves). It feels like we're punishing (or ourselves) for little reason other than "policy". ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:39, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[]

I think there is some misrepresentation of at least my own position on the proposed Korea redirects, so I will clarify. As I explained in that discussion, where enough content has been added to the articles created by the editor in question to make them useful articles for travellers, I have removed them from the deletion/redirect nomination. Because ttcf. The remaining articles aren't useful for travellers, and don't have content worth merging, so I think they should be deleted and redirected to the regional article. Because ttcf. To quote from the original nomination, "I propose to delete/redirect these crappy articles because they are not useful to travellers...." The place names are valid search terms, so a redirect makes sense, in my opinion.
Our failed attempts to engage the contributor to get more useful content demonstrate that my aim (and the aim of the others who tried to coach the contributor) has been to build better articles. The excessive focus on the "punishment" argument is misplaced and does not represent what has been going on here. Ground Zero (talk) 12:41, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[]
"Delete and redirect" is not something our policies allow. And I am not sure whether we should allow for it. And there is the question whether those articles are likely search terms and which benefit it would bring to make them redirects... Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:56, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[]
Ground Zero I put all of the things brought up into the list above but as I stated, I assume the last one (too many articles without much content by a single user) is the reason for the merging. I believe you stated that the listings without descriptions are "eyesores" and make WV look bad. I don't necessarily agree with that, nor do I think that is a valid reason to merge articles. If the articles themselves are "crappy because they are not useful" then why would redirecting them make them more useful than outright deleting them? The articles in that vfd actually DID have attraction names which was much more useful than a redirect. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 13:19, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[]
User:ChubbyWimbus I never called the articles "eyesores". I wrote that they are not useful to travellers. Lists of sights, restaurants, hotels, etc., are not useful for travellers or good for Wikivoyage. It is telling readers "do your own research". Then what is Wikivoyage for? We need to provide better quality information to attract and be useful for readers. If there were any useful information in the articles, I'd be willing to wait to see if the article can grow. But I've tried on some of these articles and haven't been able to find stuff worth adding. If you think there is useful information out there, please add it. Ground Zero (talk) 13:38, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[]
I'm not clear what the purpose of this discussion is, very possibly because I'm not reading closely enough. ChubbyWimbus, are you proposing to change the deletion policy? If so, how? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:07, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[]
I am proposing a change to the "merge not delete" policy: If the situation arises that a user creates numerous articles with little or no content and the articles are brought to question (without improvements being made), then deletion is preferred over merging. It's better to just return them to their state of non-existence until someone wants to create them with attention to those destinations. An issue with mass article creation says nothing about the destinations themselves. Merging should be done with consideration of specific articles. The answer to mass article creation shouldn't be mass merging those articles. Mass merging is at least as bad (I'd say worse) than mass empty article creation. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 10:06, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[]
I see, thank you for being specific. You say a couple of times that deletion is preferable to merging; why is that, in your view? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:02, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[]
To me, merging articles should require some sort of consideration of the destination itself. In the case of mass article creation, the issue is not about the article destinations themselves but rather that a large number were created without content. In that case, I find it preferable to return them to their previous state (aka: delete them). As I stated above, I don't think it makes sense to "solve" mass article creation with mass merging. It is akin to making all redlinks into redirects. It's thoughtless and counterproductive.
LPfi makes a point on the same vfd that I agree with (and have made before): We prefer to redirect real places. However, that requires that there is some information on the place in the target article, either from before or added when redirecting. If the reader has no idea why he or she ended up in North Gyeongsang after typing Bonghwa County, and the former is no help in planning a trip to the latter, then a redirect does not serve the traveller. If providing useful information in the redirect target is more trouble than it's worth (for those of us who would have to add the info, not a hypothetical local), then deleting is a better path.

ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:30, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[]

To the point that "delete and redirect" is not possible per policy, turning articles with insufficient content or usefulness into redirects is pretty common practice, and I would very much doubt it's against any policy. I completely agree with Ground Zero's position. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:43, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[]
Please read the discussion before responding. "Delete and redirect" was not proposed anywhere. Also, this is a policy change discussion (again, please read before responding), so citing the policy is moot. The proposal is a small change in that if a user is found to be creating excessive amounts of blank or near-blank articles, the articles should simply be deleted rather than merged/redirected. The mass creation of blank articles is no more harmful than the mass creation of redirects. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 10:38, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[]
The fact that I replied only to one comment in no way suggests that I hadn't already read the rest of the thread. I agree that if there are a large (or even small) number of useless articles, such as the Telstra man creates about tiny villages in Australia, they should be simply deleted. I just doubt that's true in regard to these counties. They seem like useful and reasonable search terms to me, and that's why I think they should be turned into redirects. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:55, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[]

"We rarely delete pages"[edit]

Not true. I often delete pages started by spambots, touters and vandals. Shall we edit that text? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:36, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[]

Either that, or rephrase to something like "We rarely delete pages that are the result of good-faith attempts to improve the travel guide."--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:55, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[]
Good ideas from both. Edit as Ikan suggests, to text about as TT suggests. Pashley (talk) 18:47, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[]
Thanks, guys. I should mention, there's another reason to delete pages: They're verbatim copies from Wikipedia without credit or from non-copyleft sites. So maybe:
"We rarely delete pages that are not copied from other sites and are the result of good-faith attempts to improve the travel guide." Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:26, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[]
I guess I may make this change within a day or so if there's no comment, knowing that it can always be reverted or edited further at any time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:53, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[]
Your version is good.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:03, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[]
Thanks. Edited accordingly. I wasn't sure whether to maintain the bolding on "rarely delete pages" that was in the previous version. I chose to keep it, but I'd be OK with not using bolding there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:40, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[]