Talk:Musical theatre

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Extra sections?[edit]

I don't think the sections called "see" and "buy" will be needed or have any use on the travel topic. Should we delete those headings? Also, if we did that, would this article now be at usable status? Selfie City (talk) 00:46, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

An impressive venue can be worthy of seeing even if no musicals are put on there anymore. As would be a monument to the greats of the genre or a musical museum. And as for buying, well merch is one obvious thing.... Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:56, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Musicals vs. operettas[edit]

Gilbert and Sullivan wrote operettas. Sure, musicals come out of operettas. Actually, I would say the line of descent starts with The Beggar's Opera, which is a pastiche opera, but also arguably with the Singspiel. I think it's fine if we include operettas, but if we do, Lehar is just as valid to include as Gilbert and Sullivan, and we might want to include Johann Strauss's Die Fledermaus. So let's try to figure out what limits we're using for this article's scope and how we would define them, keeping in mind that it's quite difficult to make a bright-line differentiation between operas and musicals. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:46, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Gilbert and Sullivan are these days commonly played as musicals aren't they? Regardless of whether their work predates musicals as we know them today or not. But yes the line is fuzzy. Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:21, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
I think most people would associate Gilbert and Sullivan with musicals, and I think they should be listed. Selfie City (talk) 12:43, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
What about Lehar, et al.? Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:01, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
And speaking of musical vs opera, George Gershwin's Porgy and Bess had its debut on Broadway, but is today largely considered to be an opera and performed by opera troupes. And it's not true that operas are sung-through and musicals have dialogue, because Les Misérables is completely sung-through, but is classified as a musical, while Offenbach's Orphée aux enfers, Bizet's Carmen and Mozart's Die Zauberflöte have dialogue, but are classified as operas. I'm not sure where we should draw the line on this. Any ideas from the experts here? The dog2 (talk) 19:17, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
Entire repertoires of opera including the Singspiel have spoken dialogue, so that's not a difference. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:15, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
So should be include Gershwin's Porgy and Bess here? I know most musicologists classify it as an opera despite the fact that it premiered on Broadway, so since you have a PhD in musicology, what your opinion on that? The dog2 (talk) 23:10, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
I actually have a DMA in Flute Performance, though I taught music history courses for years. Porgy and Bess is both an opera and a Broadway show. It's been done both ways and does belong here, but Gershwin wrote only one opera and numerous musicals that are not operas. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:45, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Important songwriters[edit]

I think we need to include George M. Cohan, too, but the problem is, this section could easily become unmanageable. Cole Porter, Harry Warren, Kurt Weill, Leonard Bernstein, Stephen Sondheim, Stephen Schwartz...where do we draw a line? I guess the thing would be to keep going until it seems like too much? I have a preference for earlier musicals, but that's beside the point. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:51, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps we should a numerical limit - perhaps nine of them should be included, and we include a few from each era. Of the ones you've listed, I think we must include Porter, Bernstein, and Sondheim, but I don't know about the others. Selfie City (talk) 12:39, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
I think limiting us to only nine is a way too low number. Maybe we can insert the names into a flowing text in the "history" section and say which innovations each introduced? Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:34, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
That's a good idea. George M. Cohan is super-famous. Among hit songs by him are "It's a Grand Old Flag", "I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy" and "Give My Regards to Broadway". Stephen Schwartz has composed numerous musicals, including Wicked and Pippin. I don't agree with an arbitrary limit of 9 composers/lyricists, either. By the way, Ira Gershwin was a superb lyricist and needs to be included. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:05, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Outside the Anglosphere[edit]

I am by no means an expert on musicals and have only come to appreciate some of them very recently (in part because theater tickets in Germany are 10-15€ and there is a theater everywhere but musicals are expensive and only in Hamburg) but I was under the impression that Germany is musical diaspora. Perhaps that is only true compared to the United States and England after all. Are there notable Spanish or French language artists or venues? Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:24, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

My guess is that there are French and Spanish musicals in their own countries, but I doubt whether there would be many French musicals shown in the United States. Also, my knowledge of musicals is limited, particularly in modern times. I know about quite a lot of the older American tunes because they are closely associated with jazz, but I definitely never associated Germany with musicals - thanks for your input on musicals in that area. Selfie City (talk) 21:55, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
apparently Lin Manuel Miranda is doing a Spanish language version of Hamilton. But I was obviously asking about Latin America out the Francophonie or maybe even Madrid or Paris Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:21, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
Les Misérables was originally in French and had its debut in Paris in 1980. Unfortunately, the original French version isn't very well-known, and the musical only became the global hit that it is today following the debut of the English version in London in 1985. So in a sense, it's similar to Starlight Express - the original English version was not particularly popular, but the German version became a hit. The dog2 (talk) 19:11, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
The original French Les Mis uses disco music, rather than the more operatic style of the later versions. I doubt it's even performed in France anymore, as there is now a French version of the West End version (does that make sense?). ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:39, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
Speaking of which, didn't they move around many of the songs from the original French version and assign them to different characters for the West End version. My understanding is that Eponine's "On My Own" was originally written for Fantine as "L'Air de la Misère" in the original French version. The dog2 (talk) 21:39, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Who "embodies hip hop"[edit]

I am sorry, but I fear this edit by User:Ikan Kekek while trying to make a parenthetical aside more intelligible it made a mess of the whole thing. What I was alluding to was what Lin Manuel Miranda says in the first twenty to thirty seconds of this video of the (now famous) 2009 performance at the White House. Lin Manuel Miranda says - and you can judge by the laughter that it was seen as a somewhat absurd premise at the time - that Treasury Secretary Alexander Hamilton embodies hip hop. And well, if you define hip hop as "rising from the bottom to the top through your words and catching beef in the process" that is not too unfair a description of the life of the Ten Dollar Founding Father without a father. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:30, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

OK, but if it's important to go into all that, assume your readership understands nothing about this and explain it sufficiently and clearly. Don't expect any readers to come to this talk page for clarification. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:13, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Let's not lose the travel focus here, please[edit]

While I appreciate it that we now list a bunch of composers and the songs they are famous for, but wouldn't it matter more in a travel guide where theaters are, whether there are some special considerations when attending (like the "no clapping for church music" thing that I had never been consciously aware of before reading it in WV) and maybe even some "pilgrimage" sites like idk, maybe there is a Gilbert&Sullivan memorial somewhere in Penzance or something? Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:03, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

People actually do travel to watch concerts of some of these famous songs, so a listing some really famous ones is warranted. And yes, you can watch musicals in places other than Broadway or West End. Just that the runs tend to be much shorter. But other cities I can think of where you can watch one of these musicals with world class cast are Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Sydney and Melbourne. The dog2 (talk) 00:56, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
We're not even listing more than a very few venues at Broadway and West End each. Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:57, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
There are so many famous songs (most of the American Song Book and then some!) that I agree on not listing any. I think it's more than sufficient to cover the most famous songwriters and lyricists for the theater of the past and present and mention some of the best known musicals to their credit, with an especially famous theatrical song or three highlighted in that description when it's really important (and to me, really important means on the level of "Give My Regards to Broadway", "I Got Rhythm", "Old Man River", or for an example of a living songwriter, "Send in the Clowns"). Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:10, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
I guess a good alternative will be to list a few of the famous songs in the descriptions of the famous composers/lyricists. I agree that there are so many famous songs from musicals that it is impossible to list all of them here. But that said, it can be useful to let people know that some songs originally came from musicals, as some of those songs are very popular in their own right, to the point that many people who like them don't realise they originally came from particular musicals. (eg. "Getting to Know You", "No Matter What", etc.) Not to mention that everyone knows "You'll Never Walk Alone" as the Liverpool FC anthem, but hardly anyone knows that the song originally came from a Rodgers and Hammerstein musical. The dog2 (talk) 17:37, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

"The Broadway Musical isn't Doomed"[edit]

You might enjoy reading this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:02, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Page title[edit]

Come to think of it, shouldn't we use "Musical theatre" as the title for this page? After all, "musical theatre" is the formal name, while "musicals" is more colloquial. The dog2 (talk) 23:31, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

I think musicals is fine, but we could turn either musicals or musical theatre into a redirect to the other. Selfie City (talk) 23:32, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
I mildly agree with The dog2 on this. Also, the spelling "theatre" is good, as we use that spelling a lot in New York, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:24, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Should we move this page, then? I'm good with either the main title being "Musical theatre" or "Musicals", as long as one of these titles is a redirect to the other. Selfie City (talk) 03:23, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
I prefer "musicals" as it avoids the dialect issue and is more immediately obvious what we are talking about. Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:07, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
"Musical theatre" is also pretty obvious. It is just a little more formal than "Musicals". And I am quite ambivalent towards either spelling, but I use the British one because that's the one that I learnt, and therefore am more used to, but using the American spelling is not going to throw me off either. But yes, it's true that this is one of the words where the British spelling is not uncommon in the U.S. Over here in Chicago, there is the "Chicago Theatre", the "Palace Theatre", and the "Oriental Theatre", so as you can see, the British spelling is used in the formal names of the theatres where musicals or other live shows are staged. The dog2 (talk) 15:15, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── "musical theatr" (see what I did there?) can be any random combination of theatr and music. "musicals" are a pretty specific art form. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:56, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek:: As the resident expert on music, what do you think? I believe "Musical theatre" is understood to refer to this specific art form, but Hobbitschuster disagrees with me on this. I could be wrong as I am a scientist and music is not my area of study, so I thought it would be good to ask someone who actually studies music academically. The dog2 (talk) 16:45, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
What I am saying is that - for example - Bert Brecht would never have called his work "Musicals" and most contemporary Germans wouldn't call the Dreigroschenoper a Musical, use of music in a theatrical form notwithstanding. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:50, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
What would it be called in German? Kurt Weill is a little bit of a gray area, I think. His shows have played on Broadway but also in opera houses. But they're generally thought of in the U.S. as musical theater pieces, not quite operas. As always, the distinction is fuzzy at the margins. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:23, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
I'm increasingly liking "musical theatre". Unlike the termmusicals, it incorporates both the idea of music and theater, and since we're including information about Gilbert & Sullivan, etc., I think we should go with musical theatre, but I'm still fine with it either way. Selfie City (talk) 17:25, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
At least in English as I learnt it, "musical theatre" is understood to exclude opera and ballet, though of course, the distinction can be blur at times (for instance, here in Chicago, the Chicago Lyric Opera does perform musicals such as the My Fair Lady or the Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals). But at the same time, the music must be an essential part of the work that furthers the plot, so a play with incidental music (like Peer Gynt by Henrik Ibsen, with incidental music by Edvard Grieg), regardless of whether or not the music contained vocals, would also not be classifed as "musical theatre". The dog2 (talk) 17:37, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Revues, cabarets, vaudeville... there are indeed many forms of theaters that aren't musicals where music plays a big role. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:07, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Yes, but at least to my knowledge, none of these would be classified as "Musical theatre". Perhaps they would be in German, Swedish or other European languages (and I don't speak them, so I wouldn't know), but in the context of the English language, "Musical theatre" is a very specific type of stage performance and synonymous with "musicals", not just any stage performance with music. The dog2 (talk) 18:23, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

To my knowledge, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:55, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
So, shall we do the switch then? "Musical theatre" as the main page name, and a redirect on "Musicals". The dog2 (talk) 04:14, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
No-one's objected so far. Any objection to changing the article's name to "Musical theatre"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:35, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Must say I am still not a fan of the -re spelling, but that's the way it is now so... eh... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:13, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

It's a good spelling because it works for both London and New York. We use both spellings here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:06, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

List of songs[edit]

I've suggested above that we really don't want to have a list of songs. Instead, in our mention of the absolute most important composers and lyricists for the theatre, we can mention some of their absolutely most famous songs, naming the musical(s) they are part of. So, for example, in the case of the Gershwin brothers, we can mention that of the numerous hit musicals they collaborated on, probably the most important one in terms of the hit songs included in it was Girl Crazy (1930), which featured "I Got Rhythm", probably the most famous tune in the history of musical theatre, and also "Embraceable You" and "But not for Me". Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:59, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't know if we should completely get rid of the list, but it's true that there are too many famous songs for us to possibly list every single one of them. But as I mentioned, there are some songs that have become so popular in other contexts that most people who know those songs do not know that they were originally written for particular musicals. As an alternative, I can suggest that we keep the list, but limit it to the songs that meet the criterion I mentioned. The dog2 (talk) 03:23, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
There are too many famous songs. The list, if it were actually a good one, would be of well over 100 songs and probably well over 200. A brief list of songs is absurd - it would be like having an article about classical orchestral music and mention only Beethoven's 5th, Mozart's 40th, Schubert's Unfinished, Tchaikovsky's Pathetique, Dvorak's New World and Brahms' 4th. Except that this list is worse because it doesn't mention the most famous show song of all, "I Got Rhythm", which was George Gershwin's own favorite. Just in terms of Cole Porter alone, off the top of my head, if we really are going to have a long list of songs, we would need to include "Night and Day", "I've Got You Under My Skin", "Anything Goes", "You're the Top", "Love for Sale", "Let's Do It", "My Heart Belongs to Daddy", "You'd Be So Easy to Love" and "It's All Right with Me" in addition to the ones already mentioned and whatever major hit tunes I can't think of right now. And I don't see any Irving Berlin songs mentioned. Those go on forever and ever. With all due respect, trying to have a section listing the most important Broadway show tunes is a really foolish project that is not only doomed to failure but really far removed from the bailiwick of a travel guide.Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:37, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
I get your point on this. I'm not saying we should list all tunes that are important in the history of musicals, as that would of course be a fool's errand. What I meant was to only list the famous songs that almost nobody knows come from musicals. Just as an example, everyone knows "No Matter What" as a Boyzone hit, but nobody knows that it was from Andrew Lloyd Webber's "Whistle Down the Wind". And likewise, everyone knows "You'll Never Walk Alone" as the anthem for Liverpool FC, but nobody knows that it came from Rodgers and Hammerstein's "Carousel". So what I meant is to limit it only these types of tunes, as that would make this list much more manageable, and we can have a lede in the section saying that we are not listing all famous tunes, but only the ones that most people do not know come from musicals. The dog2 (talk) 15:12, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
But from the perspective of our site's goals, who cares about any of this? Even if a Liverpool FC fan reads this article who never knew "You'll Never Walk Alone" actually comes from a Rodgers and Hammerstein musical, even if his mind is completely blown by that piece of information, in what possible way would that intersect with travel? Is he really going to book the next flight to JFK or Heathrow and buy tickets to a Broadway or West End show just so he can see his team's fight song performed on a theater stage? I think that's a stretch, to put it mildly. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:29, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
What you described would of course probably not happen, but if that Liverpool FC fan found this out and happened to have planned a trip to New York City or London, or any other city for that matter, when "Carousel" happens to be playing (s)he might want to buy tickets to the performance out of curiosity on the original context of the song.
And although I'm talking about a different genre here, just as an analogy to what I mentioned, what initially got me interested in opera was listening to the overture of Mozart's "Le Nozze di Figaro". When I found out where it was from and delved into it, I was eventually convinced to give the genre a go, and that was in fact the very first opera I ever watched in full (albeit recorded). The dog2 (talk) 16:06, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
I still think that's a stretch. Have you seen Broadway ticket prices? No one's going to go to a show on a whim. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:08, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I've been to New York City and watched a Broadway musical before, so I know how expensive it is. But that said, if you're already going to spend all that money and time to fly all the way to New York City (just to put it in perspective, Singapore to JFK is over 20 hours of flying), you'll probably already have factored the price of a Broadway musical ticket into the budget for your New York City trip. And if you can't afford it, the sensible thing to do will be to delay your trip and save up until you can.

I've watched a musical on West End too, and West End prices are somewhat cheaper than Broadway prices. But regardless, if you're going all the way to London (and it's almost 14 hours of flying from Singapore to Heathrow, not as bad as to JFK but still quite punishing by any standard) and spending that kind of money on airtickets, the sensible thing to do will also be to make the trip only when you have saved enough money to catch a West End musical. And if you catch one of those musicals on tour, like when they perform in say, Chicago or Melbourne, it becomes much more reasonably priced on either Broadway or West End. The dog2 (talk) 16:55, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Dog, even if it's relevant, just name a few tunes people might not know are from shows in "Understand" in prose. No long lists, please, and definitely no randomly short lists of show tunes that will just - again, with all due respect - make the article look stupid. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:34, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
OK, I guess your suggestion also gets the job done. The dog2 (talk) 14:58, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
I am therefore moving the list here, to serve as a reference for the kinds of edits we've discussed in this thread:

Important melodies originally composed for musicals[edit]

  • Tea for Two (Vincent Younas & Irving Caesar) - From No, No, Nanette (1925)
  • The Song is You (Jerome Kern & Oscar Hammerstein II) - From Music in the Air (1932)
  • I Get a Kick Out of You (Cole Porter) - From Anything Goes (1934)
  • Summertime (George Gershwin) - From Porgy and Bess (1935)
  • You'll Never Walk Alone (Rodgers & Hammerstein) - Originally written for the musical Carousel (1945), but since adopted by Liverpool Football Club supporters as their club anthem, and is regularly sung during matches.
  • Tom, Dick or Harry (Cole Porter) - From Kiss Me, Kate (1948)
  • Getting to Know You (Rodgers & Hammerstein) - From The King and I (1951)
  • America (Leonard Bernstein & Stephen Sondheim) - From West Side Story (1957)
  • Do-Re-Mi (Rodgers & Hammerstein) - From The Sound of Music (1959), and is often sung as nursery rhyme today
  • Edelweiss (Rodgers & Hammerstein) - From The Sound of Music (1959)
  • I Don't Know How to Love Him (Andrew Lloyd Webber & Tim Rice) - From Jesus Christ Superstar (1970)
  • Any Dream Will Do (Andrew Lloyd Webber & Tim Rice) - From Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat (1970)
  • Send In the Clowns (Stephen Sondheim) - From A Little Night Music (1973)
  • Don't Cry For Me Argentina (Andrew Lloyd Webber & Tim Rice) - From Evita (1978)
  • Memory (Andrew Lloyd Webber) - From Cats (1981).
  • One Night in Bangkok (Benny Andersson & Björn Ulvaeus from ABBA & Tim Rice) - From Chess (1986)
  • Love Changes Everything (Andrew Lloyd Webber) - From Aspects of Love (1989)
  • As If We Never Said Goodbye (Andrew Lloyd Webber) - From Sunset Boulevard (1993)
  • You Have To Be There (Björn Ulvaeus & Benny Andersson) - From Kristina från Duvemåla (1995)
  • No Matter What (Andrew Lloyed Webber) - From Whistle Down the Wind (1996), and famously covered by the Irish boyband Boyzone in 1998.
  • Defying Gravity (Stephen Schwartz) - From Wicked (2003)

Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:58, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Well, there's a few musical tunes that were also extremely popular jazz standards, and I think some of those should be here. You could also check out the legal version of the Real Book, which includes many tunes that were originally in musicals.
I think we should probably include one or two tunes from each decade to give travelers a decent idea about musicals, but there's no need to include every single tune in every single musical in history. By the way, there's also a version of Summertime on Wikimedia Commons, so we could possibly incorporate that and keep Summertime on the list. Selfie City (talk) 14:26, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
I also think the idea of including the names of the tunes within the section about composers is a good idea. Selfie City (talk) 14:29, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Let's please do that. List teams of composers and lyricists and those who filled both roles (e.g., Cole Porter, Irving Berlin) and mention a few of their most famous tunes, which are in X or Y Musical. Selfie, I'm a musician. I've played many tunes out of all versions of the Real Book and then some, and that's exactly why I don't want a long list of well-known tunes here, let alone an inappropriately short one. This is a travel guide. People who want to do more research won't lack for ways to do that, though we could give them one hint by using the term "American songbook" in "Understand", with a brief description of what it is (a selection from about the first half of the 20th century of important and well-loved songs from Broadway and others, called Tin Pan Alley songs, which were published separately as popular songs). Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:14, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

"Important songwriters and lyricists"[edit]

OK, so now, instead of a list of songs, we have a list of "Important songwriters and lyricists". I think it's very bad (the word I actually thought of was "atrocious", with all due respect). If you all insist on keeping it, we'll need to add many more names and lots more information to it, but I think it would be much better to delete it, as Wikivoyage is not Wikipedia and even a great list would be very tenuously travel-related. Thank God we don't have such a list in European classical music. Your comments? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:58, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Can I please have some feedback on this? I'll move the entire section here within a couple of days if no-one has any argument for what to do with it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:53, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
Yes, by all means remove it. —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:35, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
Here's the section, in case anyone decides to do anything with this information, but I hope we don't restore it:

Important songwriters and lyricists[edit]

  • Gilbert and Sullivan were a duo of 19th century English musical figures who wrote wildly successful and still widely quoted and parodied works like H.M.S. Pinafore and The Pirates of Penzance. Even if you think you don't know their work, songs in the style of the "Major General Song" have become a staple of musical comedy not only in the Anglosphere. However, Gilbert and Sullivan actually wrote operettas, not musicals.
  • George Gershwin was one of the best-known figures in earlier musicals; he composed the tune "Summertime" in the 1920s. His brother, Ira Gershwin, was a well-known lyricist who wrote the lyrics to many of his hit songs.
  • Richard Rogers and Oscar Hammerstein II were a composer-lyricist pairing that gave rise to many all-time classics such as The King and I, The Sound of Music, Carousel, South Pacific, and Oklahoma!.
  • Lorenz Hart was an important lyricist in the musicals whose tunes are found in the American songbook.
  • Jerome Kern wrote a tune called "The Song is You" in the 1930s.
  • Cole Porter was a composer and lyricist who gave rise to Kiss Me, Kate, the musical that won the inaugural Tony Award for Best Musical, as well as several other well-known ones such as Anything Goes and Fifty Million Frenchmen.
  • Stephen Sondheim is an American composer and lyricist who was involved in many old-time classics such as A Little Night Music, Sweeney Todd, and West Side Story.
  • Andrew Lloyd Webber, perhaps the most successful name in the game, was the mastermind behind several hugely successful musicals enjoying decades long runs in both London and New York as well as abroad (bizarrely, his musical Starlight Express while only moderately successful in the Anglosphere is an enduring phenomenon in Bochum). Besides writing musicals, Lloyd Webber is also the founder of Really Useful Group, which owns several musical theatre venues and associated businesses.
  • Lin Manuel Miranda is the author of the moderately successful In the Heights and the pop culture phenomenon Hamilton about the founding fathers, also a singer in his own right, starring in the title role of the original Broadway Hamilton. He has won a Pullitzer Price an Emmy a Grammy and a Tony being "just" an Oscar short of "Pegot", a feature few artists of any kind have ever achieved

Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:30, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Jukebox Musicals[edit]

Given the success of musicals like "Mamma Mia" and "Rock of Ages", I wonder if we should mention anything about jukebox musicals (for those who are unfamiliar with the term, jukebox musicals make use only of pre-existing songs, and do not have original songs). If so, what will be the most appropriate place to cover them? The dog2 (talk) 20:35, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, definitely. They could have their own subsection with examples. We also might have a separate section for Broadway shows that are based on movies or TV programs, rather than vice versa. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:18, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

More venues[edit]

Can we please list at least the Broadway and West End venues that meet the minimum seat requirement to not be called "off-"? Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:42, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

What do you call it when one guy writes all three elements of the musical?[edit]

I seem to dimly recall that being called "Holy Trinity" or some such. Like (to my knowledge) Lin-Manuel Miranda did for "Hamilton" where he wrote the book, the songs and the third part that right now eludes me. Hobbitschuster (talk) 10:18, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Gesamtkunstwerk. ;)
Seriously, I don't know what you call it in the case of a musical. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:27, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

"Serious" musicals[edit]

From the article:

While many early forms of musical entertainment went for nothing but laughter, modern musicals can be quite sad and dark or even political, transporting a "serious" message.

True, but who reading this passage will know that the first "modern" musical was "Show Boat" by Jerome Kern and Oscar Hammerstein, and it premiered in 1926? I know we want to avoid too much potted history in this article, but surely, that bears mentioning? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:52, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Sure, go ahead and add it in. And if you know more, perhaps you can add in a bit more about the parallel development of musicals in Britain and America, since London and New York are the world's main centres of musical theatre. The dog2 (talk) 16:53, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
I don't know much about that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:26, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
Done, for what it's worth. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:44, 4 December 2020 (UTC)