Talk:Schleswig-Holstein

North Frisian Islands

Can we do away with that article and just link directly from here to Sylt and Heligoland? PrinceGloria (talk) 04:56, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Subdivision

Administrative division; maybe we could base our lines on those

Given that this article contains 13 cities and its de facto sub-article North Frisian islands contains 10 articles (5 "major islands" and 5 "Halligen") maybe we should think about a subdivision. I am spitballing here, but it seems to me that to a tourist, Schleswig and Holstein (sans Danish North-Schleswig) are indeed "up ewig ungedeeld" (forever unseparated) and thus a north-south division along the old Schleswig-Holstein dividing line makes no sense. However, what about a division into western and eastern parts? I think the Landkreise Nordfriesland and Dithmarschen should obviously form the core of one region but I am not yet sure about the other region(s) or whether to add the Landkreise of Steinburg and Pinneberg to that (tentatively named) Schleswig Holstein West Coast or Western Schleswig Holstein or North Sea Coast of Schleswig Holstein. What do you think? And yes it is okay to base opinions from looks upon the map. Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:23, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

I made a map in my userspace that shows the Landkreise as well as all currently existing articles in the state. Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:51, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

I do not see a major issue with 13 (well 15) articles for a bottom level region in itself. The real question is can you identify distinct geographical or transport regions that would require specific information in each region? No point in having two regions with the same or no information beyond a list of cities. --Traveler100 (talk) 19:10, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

The Marschbahn certainly is the major North-South spine on the western side. Furthermore, the West is even more rural than the rest (Kiel, Lübeck and Flensburg are all connected to the Baltic all other cities are smaller than 80 000) Nordfriesland is obviously connected to the Frisian heritage. And last but not least, for a tourist a North Sea vacation is different from a Baltic Sea vacation. So much so, that people in tourism in both regions acknowledge that and say "Well some times we get people who come here once and then go back to the other body of water because this one just isn't for them. [shrug] what'cha gonna do?". The only issue I see right now is how to split the middle and whether two regions suffice. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:12, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Baltic drainage basins

North Sea and Baltic Coast distinction makes good sense but where to split, as you say, is not easy. The only obvious physical split is the A7 Autobahn but would probably have to drift a little over each side when getting near larger towns and cities. Otherwise take the Kreise on the west coast as one region and the rest as the other. Another alternative would be the watershed (which way the water flows, i.e. which sea); looking at the rivers this is quite a bit eastward. --Traveler100 (talk) 07:02, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Subdividing into North Sea and Baltic coast sounds sensible – these two are very distinct landscapes and there are indeed die-hard fans of either of them. Moreover, all major lines of communication (Autobahnen and railways) run from South to North, while connections from coast to coast are underdeveloped. For the sake of simplicity, I would define "North Sea coast" as consisting of the Landkreise Nordfriesland, Dithmarschen, Steinburg and Pinneberg; and class all remaining Landkreise and cities among "Baltic coast". The A7 autobahn would be an acceptable divide as well (as it is easy to find on all maps and running roughly halfway between the two seashores), perhaps with the exception of Rendsburg which is to the west of A7, but much closer to the Baltic Sea, due to its firths. While the watershed would be geographically the most exact divide, its course is hardly known outside expert circles and impossible to find on most maps. --RJFF (talk) 12:05, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

What about a three-way division? Nordfriesland, Steinburg and Dithmarschen as "Schleswig Holstein North Sea Coast", Flensburg, Schleswig-Flensburg, Rendsburg-Eckernförde, Kiel, Plön, Ostholstein and Lübeck as "West German Baltic Coast" and the remaining (Neumünster, Segeberg, Pinneberg, Stormarn, Herzogtum Lauenburg) as "Northeastern Metro Hamburg"? Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:51, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately we've made no progress on this... Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:07, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

I would keep this proposal on hold until there are more city article. I do not find 15 too many for a bottom level. --Traveler100 (talk) 14:11, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

You're forgetting the islands which work like cities. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:07, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

I think we should not use artificial regional designations like "Northeastern Metro Hamburg" that are unknown to locals and travelers alike. Also "West German Baltic Coast" is somewhat confusing as it is Schleswig-Holstein's Eastern coast. We cannot assume that every international visitor knows the course of the former intra-German border and we should not perpetuate the East-West conflict 30 years after reunification. Keep it simple: Schleswig-Holstein North Sea Coast and Schleswig-Holstein Baltic Coast or North Sea Coast (Schleswig-Holstein) and Baltic Coast (Schleswig-Holstein). --RJFF (talk) 12:35, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

I still do not think this page needs subdividing yet. --Traveler100 (talk) 12:38, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

What about now? We've gotten a new addition to the cities list - Tönning Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:01, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

No --Traveler100 (talk) 20:47, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Which number do you think necessary before you'd consider subdivision? Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:53, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

I do not think there is an exact number but would start thinking about it at around 20 but there are some regions that getting close to 30 and still OK, other regions only have a couple of articles. It is more a case of whether the region has content that stands on its own right and is distinctive for some reason from the other region. Something like distinctive geography or social-economical or political divide. --Traveler100 (talk) 21:06, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I refer to the lengthy discussion above how from a travel standpoint the west and east coasts of SH differ substantially from one another... Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:24, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

May 2020

Having read the above, with my knowledge of Schleswig-Holstein more or less starting and ending at this discussion, the proposal to split east and west along the motorway line where possible makes sense to me. If you can't easily get from one coast to t'other, then from the traveller's perspective, it makes sense to have two.ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:28, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

It's definitely time to split it, but I have no opinion on how best to do that. Ground Zero (talk) 12:18, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

With respect, you could read the proposal that already exists and give an opinion on that, as I have done.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:56, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

With respect, I have enough disputes with Hobbitschuster that I don't need to give him another opportunity to tell me that I'd don't know anything about the subject and I should butt out. You don't really need my opinion on how to split up this region. If you want to remove my comments from the discussion, I won't object. Ground Zero (talk) 15:49, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

I agree it's time to subdivide SH. In my opinion dividing anything into just two parts would be somewhat odd so I'd suggest Hobbit's division above or my own version:

1. West/North Sea coast (and inland all the way to Autobahn A7, as far south as the mouth of Elbe-Neumünster line),

2. Northeast/Bay of Kiel (East of A7, Flensburg down to Kiel and Plön),

3. East/Lübeck and surroundings/Bay of Lübeck (Fehmarn to Lübeck and Ratzeburg),

4. South/Northern Hamburg (a horseshoe from Brunsbüttel, Neumünster, Bad Segeberg and down to Lauenburg/Elbe) --Ypsilon (talk) 14:24, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Can you put that in terms of Landkreise or would you propose to cut through some of them? That way we can easily visualize it... In general your proposal sounds good, tho... Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:26, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Sure. Per this map (also on the top of this talk page) #1 North Sea Coast would be Nordfriesland, most (or all?) of Dithmarschen, western halves of Schleswig-Flensburg and Rendsburg-Eckernförde. #2 Bay of Kiel: City of Flensburg, the eastern halves of S-F and R-E, City of Kiel, Plön and maybe Neumünster, #3 Greater Lübeck: Ost-Holstein, City of Lübeck, northern part of Herzogtum Lauenburg, #4 Southern Holstein: perhaps some of Dithmarschen, perhaps a slice of southern Rendsburg-Eckernförde, Neumünster if not part of #2, Steinburg, Pinneberg, Segeberg, Stormarn, most of Lauenburg. Ps. names of districts could be tweaked, but I tried to come up with something less bureaucratic than the compass directions. --Ypsilon (talk) 14:36, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't mind splitting into three or four, but doing so just for the sake of having more than two is a bad reason. When there are only 20-ish cities, a division into two isn't unreasonable, as each will hopefully have about 10, which is not far off 7+2. It's also not unheard of: Normandy has just two subregions, Upper and Lower.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:52, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

In this case it doesn't make much sense to divide into two. Ypsilon (talk) 15:13, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

@Ypsilon: Why not? ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:50, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘Existing articles are full of redlinks to possible articles which might be created at any moment, including Eutin or Mölln and of course the popular Bad Malente which supposedly "saved" the 1974 soccer world cup for Germany... Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:23, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Landing on these pages as a newcomer, I found them easy to navigate, and didn’t see what problem was being addressed by subdividing the region. Sure it’s got a lot of cities, since it’s a populous interesting place. I’m guessing the question arose when you began finding semi-orphan pages, poorly linked to the hierarchy, and began to wonder how many more were lurking in the sculleries and cowsheds of the region. But there are several responses possible: a) do nothing, to have 19 cities plus several islands is not remarkable. (Is it possible to generate a histogram of the number of cities per each WV region? – S/H might not be an outlier); b) consider mergers especially for pages like Preez which are less developed; c) group the towns on the regional “cities” list without subdividing. There may be convincing reasons against all of these, but they’ve not been set out on this Discussion page, so it feels like a stampede towards a subdivision that may not be worth the work involved. Grahamsands (talk) 19:29, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Haven't I pointed out above how the Baltic and the North Sea Coast are different? Add to that the influence of Hamburg in the Southwest, the influence of Denmark in the North, the influence of the former inner-German border in the Southeast, the Frisian influence in the West and we have a pretty diverse state on our hands. Plus the transportation connections in SH are not all that good, particularly if one wishes to get from one coast to the other. The Marschbahn goes from Hamburg to Westerland (electrified as far north as Itzehoe) and there is a (as of now) single track non-electrified line from Lübeck to Fehmarn which may or may not be replaced by a new line (with the old shutting down) if and when the Fehmarnbelt-Tunnel opens. But getting from coast to coast is actually easiest if you are a ship in the Nord-Ostsee Kanal Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:17, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

TT, if the article was divided into West coast and East coast above (the only meaningful two-part division per comments above) the question is what to do with locations further south that are inland and thus don't really have a "coastal" character. Then there's (the Free and Hanseatic City of) Lübeck with surroundings which I think is prominent enough that it should have its own region. --Ypsilon (talk) 16:13, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes? --Ypsilon (talk) 15:44, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

I think regions with fewer than five cities are silly, and I don't think it's odd that coastal regions also have an inland, but as said already I don't know S-H, so if you or Hobbitschuster or somebody else want to set about dividing it in the way you suggested, I'll support that for the sake of concluding this discussion.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:20, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

North Sea Coast (Nordfriesland, Dithmarschen)

Kiel Bay (Flensburg, Schleswig-Flensburg, Rendsburg-Eckernförde, Kiel, Plön)

Lübeck and East Holstein (Ostholstein, Lübeck, Lauenburg)

South Holstein (Steinburg, Pinneberg, Neumünster, Segeberg, Stormarn)

Districts on a map (hope this works). Ypsilon (talk) 15:03, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

And with cities in my lab. Ypsilon (talk) 15:05, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

@Hobbitschuster, RJFF:, what do you think? --Ypsilon (talk) 18:32, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

I like the regional breakdown, but I think we should chose colors for the two northerly regions which are more distinctive from one another... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:07, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

I changed North Sea Coast to purple, so it can be distinguished both from Kiel Bay and from the colour of the sea itself. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:03, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

That works... Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:05, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

I've started rolling out the four regions. Still have to change the breadcrumbs and some other stuff.Ypsilon (talk) 18:17, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ In the case someone wonders about the cities I added to the region articles, they are district (Landkreise) capitals and places that have good articles in German Wikivoyage. Also, I forgot to thank SelfieCity for updating the breadcrumbs yesterday. --Ypsilon (talk) 18:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks for handling this, Ypsilon.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:55, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. Now for the hard work of adding content to the region articles... Hobbitschuster (talk) 10:57, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Subdivision of Schleswig Holstein

Swept in from the pub

Our article on this state now contains 17 listed "cities" plus the islands of Fehmarn (under "other destinations") and the North Frisian islands. I had already proposed subdividing it in the past but this got nowhere, can we reopen this discussion please? Hobbitschuster (talk) 10:14, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

And the addition of Ratzeburg brings us to 18 Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:29, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

The addition of Husum now brings the number of "cities" to 19... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:52, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

I gave my opinion on Talk:Schleswig-Holstein and suggest further discussion takes place there.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:55, 17 May 2020 (UTC)