Talk:Travemünde

Page banners

Current banner

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I find the page banner could be improved still. Here are some more alternatives for considering. Danapit (talk) 10:57, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

2 is fun. 3 could be good as well but recropped, lower bar will obscure Strandkorben. Jjtkk (talk) 16:20, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I like #2, as well. I will do another crop of #3 for comparison, but I tried it before and the sky turns too boring when you crop off the clouds. Danapit (talk) 07:54, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I think #3 would be good because most people visit the beach and to have an idea of it would be great. Imho #2 is a bit beliebig because seagulls are on all shore lines. jan (talk) 08:07, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

@Danapit: #4 is very good. Actually i like;) jan (talk) 08:39, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I took the liberty to add banner 4 on the article. It looks good but is it only me that the ship pic below is a bit irritating? Shall we change the ship, the banner or keep both? jan (talk) 15:29, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

It is perhaps a slight improvement, but I still think we can do better with the banner, if anybody has a nice picture on a hard disk or finds it elsewhere. Or take a nice picture next time you go there ;) The same applies for Soltau, btw. Danapit (talk) 06:53, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Ferries

I'm not 100% sure, but have a feeling that ferries should be moved to Go next. I think most people checking this article will be more interested where they can go than if they can get here from Riga. Jjtkk (talk) 16:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm, that sounds logical. But in Get in it is easier to find the information, that's where you would normally find ferries in WV articles according to Wycsi. So I'm not completely convinced. Danapit (talk) 08:00, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

anon IPs

I see that some anon IPs work on that article and i assume it is our German contributors who don't log in (e.g. user benreis mentioned that). It would be great if you could login to allow communication. I see that lat/lon get fixed once in a while. I don't disagree with positioning but would like to know which tool you use to avoid double work. jan (talk) 13:20, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I was IP.79.x - in a hurry. For all the coordinates, I use GeoMap. The pier (Überseebrücke 2) I have identified with OpenStreetMap, layer 'Map Data'. - Joachim Mey2008 (talk) 17:57, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Grüezi Joachim, i'm using http://gpso.de/maps/ so maybe that's the reason for diverging lat/lon. I will use your source to avoid double work. jan (talk) 09:02, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Time format

Normally I wouldn't point this out, but this article has been nominated for Star status and, in order to achieve that, "...it has to be comprehensive, properly formatted, and well written."

Currently, our Wikivoyage:Time and date formats policy states: "Use one of these formats: 09:30–17:00 or 9:30AM–5PM. Do not use both 24- and 12-hour formats within one article. Choose between formats by following predominant local usage. Ask yourself which format visitors will see in timetables, on shop doors and in newspapers."

Our German editors will already know that locally you will not see the ugly, imprecise and lengthier 12 hour time formats used much in Germany. Normal are 24 hour time formats. Indeed, the English language Wikipedia currently states: "In written German, time is expressed practically exclusively in the 24-hour notation (00:00–23:59), using either a colon or a dot on the line as the separators between hours, minutes and seconds. Example: 14:51 or 14.51. The standard separator in Germany was the dot (DIN 1355, DIN 5008) until 1995, when the standards changed it to be the colon, in the interest of compatibility with ISO 8601. The traditional representation with dot allows to drop the leading zero of hours and is usually followed by the literal string “Uhr” (e.g., “6.30 Uhr”)..." and "In spoken language, the 24-hour clock has become the dominant form during the second half of the 20th century, especially for formal announcements and exact points in time. Systematic use of the 24-hour clock by German TV announcers, along with the proliferation of digital clocks, may have been a significant factor in this development..." --W. Frank^email_talk 13:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Frank, why are you duplicating discussions? You started this already within the star nom. Also why you changed only one entry in the article? Inconsistency is not going to help. And excessive long quotes from WP only looks desperate. Nothing better to do? jan (talk) 15:26, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I changed all the time format and currency format errors that I spotted in the section that I edited - together with a typo - and I also made a slight re-phrasing.

I've quoted at length because, although you said in your own StarNom that you had "...put in a lot of effort to get Travemünde up to the star level", you seem to have ignored the advice there at StarNom. In fact you specifically wrote there at StarNom: "AM/PM Standard is am/pm. I saw this morning an addition which was German style and changed it to am/pm. I read through and think i have corrected all". You seem to be very confused about this. Even if the article were in Los Angeles, it would still be a bad move to change it to am/pm since we have not agreed (yet?)) that lower case variant as policy compliant.

Last time I checked, Travemünde was still in Germany, so you should not have changed that German, 24 hour style into 12 hour format.

Ikan Kekek did indeed make a specific comment on time format: "I think time should be shown in 24-hour format in this article, per Wikivoyage:Time and date formats: "Use one of these formats: 09:30–17:00 or 9:30AM–5PM. Do not use both 24- and 12-hour formats within one article. Choose between formats by following predominant local usage. Ask yourself which format visitors will see in timetables, on shop doors and in newspapers." Is there something I missed?", but you seem to have ignored him as well since after that comment you have continued to make edits like this: in which not only did you defy our tdf policy, but also our wv:$ policy as well!

Now in the great scheme of things, whether the € symbol goes before or after the amount is no big deal, but this was your Star Nomination and I think the least you can do is graciously admit when you're actually wrong and stop wasting everyone's time and abusing the revert button! I'm certainly not going to spend a few hours making the article MoS compliant only to have you swing by a few moments later and gaily revert all my hard work with one ill considered touch of the revert button. Reverts are for vandals or howlers - not for good faith edits to improve our articles. Please revert your own reversion. --W. Frank^email_talk 16:38, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Frank, i don't know when you have been the last time in Germany. There are even in Germany now places where tourists have a significant influence. E.g. in Berlin lots of Bars don't have German staff anymore. I'm this year a rather regular visitor to Travemünde and would question if you have any local knowledge (in case i'm wrong, i would be impressed).

Concerning date/time: You are right that the public administration in German uses 100% the 24-hour date format. That is not true for all business which focus on international clients. Even elder people say that go to Dinner at 6 o'clock and not 18 Uhr. Please also note that i corrected the typo after the revert.

Last point: WV is ruled by consensus and i can't see at Starnom neither here that there is consensus. If the majority favours 24-hours i'm willing to change all listings in all sections. If you change one section then you start inconsistency for the whole article. I think you should know that. Therefore i will absolutely not undo your revert. jan (talk) 06:31, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

When W. Frank updated the single am/pm time to 24-hr time, the overall style of the article was am/pm, and not 24-hr. From what I can see Jan did a normal undo to a single edit. That's a pretty much normal part of edit/revert/discuss on the wiki. --Inas (talk) 06:38, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Although 24h format is used in Germany (and I would prefer it), I am sure everyone understands 12 hour format as well and it is commonly used in tourist oriented places. The main thing is we are consistent! Now there are both formats used which is the worst option. The same for € before or after. Danapit (talk) 08:58, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Sadly Frank seems to give a shit about building consensus within the community and prefers unilateral actions. He makes a big effort to sabotage this Starnom. I cleared some of the mistakes but there will be more. I think about a total revert of all his edits. I think Peter is right in completely reverting him. jan (talk) 10:32, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree that consistency is important. But the better way to achieve this is not to change all price formats to a way that does not meet our style guides by placing the € symbol after the amount. I agree that for most readers, neither the time, date, currency, phone or addressing format hugely influence whether this article is understandable and usable or not.

But, with respect, that should not be the point at issue here. We have a style guide so that editors can make articles consistent in the way that we have decided (often by long and tedious discussion) and that we prefer. It makes a complete nonsense of the Star nomination process if this article ends up being approved as among "the best travel guides Wikivoyage has to offer" and "essentially meet"(ing) "Wikivoyage's criteria for perfection". If this article flouts our MoS. how can we then say of this article "If you are an aspiring Wikivoyage writer, you need look no further than these rigorously formatted articles to understand exactly what you should shoot for!"

Although (and despite my request above) I have received no assurance from Jan that he will not continue to revert my edits so as to make this article non-policy compliant again, I have continued to edit many sections, so that the majority of sections now comply with our Mos. Please would other editors continue to spot and correct the remaining section(s) where the € symbol is still placed after the amount, etc. --W. Frank^email_talk 10:34, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Frank, i'm amazed that you expect other editors to cleanup the mess you created. In contrast to your request, i rather can assure you that i will diligently continue to revert all your edits that are against the community, agreed consensus by editors who worked on that article and the nonsense you add. Policies do have exceptions and especially if you don't have any local knowledge, generalisations will not help, too. jan (talk) 10:46, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Are you aware that I am German (born in Dresden)? I have indeed seen with my own eyes that it is not just "the public administration in German uses 100% the 24-hour date format".

Are you aware that, although US visitors to Travemünde are common, visitors from Europe (Germany and Poland especially) far outnumber them?

Is it your contention that we should use AM/PM exclusively in this article, because a minority of US visitors to Travemünde will simply not understand the 24hour format that they will overwhelmingly see in print and on signs in Travemünde?

Are you aware that the criteria for choosing between the two alternative formats is not spoken, but rather written language?

Have you ever seen a formal sign in Travemünde that uses the AM/PM format? (It would make a great contribution to commons if you could upload a photo of an exemplar)... --W. Frank^email_talk 11:04, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

So, you have not been in Travemünde! When was the last time you visited Germany? I was born in Germany,too but the country is changing quite a bit. In the hip areas of Hamburg and Berlin you see frequently rather 12 hours than 24 hours and that has nothing to do with the US.

I'm well aware that most tourists in Travemünde are Europeans (biggest group are Scandics, if you excl. domestic tourism) and contrary to your believe even Germans say, Lass uns um sieben zum Abendessen treffen und nicht 19 Uhr.

Last point: I don't understand why you don't wait until there is consensus for either system. Now other users have to tidy up and everyone is frustrated. Honestly i'm more appalled by your unilateral actions. You are a longtime editor and you should know by now that your behaviour is rude. jan (talk) 12:44, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

It's very difficult to make progress in a discussion and reach a rational conclusion if the discussants deliberately neglect to answer direct questions (without a justifiable reason) or address the points their interlocutors are making, so I'll try not be guilty of breaching what I preach, jan:-

1) Where do you get the very strange idea from that I "have not been in Travemünde!" ?

2) Last time in Germany? This is getting really petty and I don't think it's relevant but, if it will help get this discussion back on track about whether to consistently use AM/PM or 24 hour time formats in our Travemünde article, I flew from Hahn with Ryanair back to Glasgow about 11 days ago. Until he died, the person that rescued me as a foundling from the smoking ruins of Dresden lived in Lübeck.

3) The issue at hand is not the hip areas of Hamburg or Berlin. Please stick to the point. Is it your contention that we should use AM/PM exclusively in this article, because a minority of visitors to Travemünde will simply not understand the 24 hour format that they will overwhelmingly see in print and on signs in Travemünde? Or is it your serious contention that it is not the 24 hour format that visitors will overwhelmingly see in print and on signs in Travemünde?

4) It certainly never has been my belief that it is not the case that "even Germans say, Lass uns um sieben zum Abendessen treffen und nicht 19 Uhr". To address that particular red herring, I specifically wrote above: "Are you aware that the criteria for choosing between the two alternative formats is not spoken, but rather written language?"

5) Other users don't have to "tidy up". The Travemünde article currently and consistently uses the 24 hour format and puts the euro symbol in front of the amount. If there is a consensus to change the article into a style that does not conform to our MoS, then it should not achieve Star status. It's because I wish this article to reach Star status quickly (and correctly) that I have made the edits I have and continue (fruitlessly?) to try and get you to read our MoS and edit accordingly.

6) Have you ever seen a formal sign in Travemünde that uses the AM/PM format? (It would make a great contribution to commons if you could upload a photo of an exemplar)

7) Yes, I have been reading Wikitravel for more than 10 years and editing Wikivoyage for more than a year (making thousands of edits both here and at that other place) but I have tried very hard to be civil in this discussion here. If I have failed in your eyes, then you have my heartfelt and genuine apology, jan. --W. Frank^email_talk 14:13, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Failed Star Nomination

This article was nominated for star status but failed to meet certain requirements. If you would like to make it a star, please address the concerns below before renominating it:

Mates, during the last weeks i put in a lot of effort to get Travemünde up to the star level. It is nominated for OtBP for next summer and hopefully it is by then a star article. I read all policies and hope that i didn't miss one. User:Mey2008 was so kind to add a dynamic map, so i hope this is an appropriate equivalent to our superb static WV maps. Thank you in advance for all your feedback. Regards, jan (talk) 07:39, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• Close Support. It lacks rates in Sleep section. I got interested in Sail Ship Passat and can't find them anywhere! Jjtkk (talk) 09:42, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Good spot, added! Prices are not published as the Lübeck city administration runs the booking of the Sail Ship and prices are cost based. jan (talk) 11:16, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Right now Passat is listed twice (in Do and Sleep) which could be considered against our don't tout policy but I think it's one of the exemption cases. Anyway I'd move it from Do to See since it's a museum. Jjtkk (talk) 11:31, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

@Jjtkk: I think your concerns have now been addressed, haven't they?

If so, would you please formally change your "close" to a "support"? --118.93nzp (talk) 06:06, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

• Not yet Support. It is a very nice guide. However, there are some inconsistencies and several things missing, for example: See/Do sections - why is one lighthouse in See and the other in Do? Buy: hours missing. Hours in the whole article must be used in a consistent style, so far they are mixed (AM/PM and 24 hour style). Sleep: prices missing. Do visitors have to pay Kurtaxe at the beach in Travemünde? I would also add Mobile home parks for completeness to the accommodation section, as many visitors and travellers through Travemünde (for example those who continue to Skandinavia with ferries) use them. Danapit (talk) 09:50, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

1. Lighthouse Old light house is listed unter do because you can climb to the top and attend activities. The new light house is not open for visitors and can only be seen from outside. Just see, no action therefore according to our listing policy tow different sections
2. hours/prices Good spot, added the business hours and prices for sleeping (see comment above forJjtkk)
3. AM/PM Standard is am/pm. I saw this morning an addition which was German style and changed it to am/pm. I read through and think i have corrected all
4. Mobile home I checked the address and imho only the camping ground on Priwall is within the Travemünde town limits. There is a mobile home campground but offically it has a Lübeck post code.
5. Kurtaxe You got me;)That's the tricky part as business travellers don't have to pay it, according to newspapers and some legal newsletters (same goes for city tax in Lübeck, Cologne and Berlin) but leisure travellers have to pay one Euro per day to use the beach. I will add a brief note to not complicate it to much. jan (talk) 11:16, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

@Danapit: I think your concerns have now been addressed, haven't they?

If so, would you please formally change your "Not yet" to a "support"? --118.93nzp (talk) 06:06, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Where do you get the weird idea that, outside of US articles, "Standard is am/pm. I saw this morning an addition which was German style and changed it to am/pm"???

In case you haven't noticed, Travemünde is in Germany, so why do you think we shouldn't follow our current policy of choosing between 12hr and 24hr formats by following predominant local usage? --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 19:31, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment on time format: I think time should be shown in 24-hour format in this article, per Wikivoyage:Time and date formats: "Use one of these formats: 09:30–17:00 or 9:30AM–5PM. Do not use both 24- and 12-hour formats within one article. Choose between formats by following predominant local usage. Ask yourself which format visitors will see in timetables, on shop doors and in newspapers." Is there something I missed? Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:46, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Ikan, shops that focus on German travellers use the 24-hour system. Business that focus on international business tends to use the 12-hour system. I have now standardised all entries to 12-hours as the english version is likely to be read by international travellers and less Germans. jan (talk) 14:01, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

A lighthouse that you can enter and look around functions as a museum, which go in See. Plus it makes sense to group similar attractions together even if they're technically different in scope of allowed activities. LtPowers (talk) 13:43, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

LtP: ok, i moved it to see. Any other spots? jan (talk) 14:01, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Jan, thank you for making the improvements. Regarding WoMo Stellplätze, I have found some on the internet that might actually be in Travemünde, but I've never stayed there: Park and sail and Wohnmobilstellplatz Kowitzberg and Stellplatz Fischereihafen. What do you think, are they worth adding? Danapit (talk) 09:02, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

@Danapit, thank you for the links. I will add them. Was briefly in Travemünde and checked both, P+S is really basic but the other one is fine. jan (talk) 11:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Jan, thank you for checking and adding that. Basic: well, if you travel with a camper van, that's all you need, isn't it?

• Support: hope the dynamic maps will show up all right soon, otherwise the missing map might be the only reason for opposition from my side. Danapit (talk) 17:59, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose; the map is not "Wikivoyage-style", and it displays overlapping icons and overlapping text. Not an example of our best work. LtPowers (talk) 02:19, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

To LtPowers: Do you still maintain your opposition to promotion because of the dynamic map?

If so, perhaps you would clarify whether you intend to oppose all further Starnoms that use dynamic maps, please? --118.93nzp (talk) 08:35, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

My concerns with the map have not been addressed; the icons still overlap unprofessionally and interfere with the text, and the map is not in Wikivoyage style. As to your second question, others have suggested that it's possible to create a dynamic map that looks good; I'm still waiting. LtPowers (talk) 19:42, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Connect

Ikan has asked what the issue is with Wi-Fi. The reason in Germany is called https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/St%C3%B6rerhaftung To cut a long legal discussion short: In Germany the operator of a Wi-Fi is responsible for everything people might do on the internet (e.g. IP, P2P, streaming) and therefore operators like restaurants/bars are hesitant to offer it (several law companies only exist to collect perceived damages). The requirements and limitation of this liability is currently under review by federal courts but free WiFi will be highly regulated by law unless new court rulings ease it. jan (talk) 19:48, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Wow, that sucks! When did that happen? As recently as January, it was not hard to find W-LAN in Munich. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:34, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Ikan, the whole internet law is work in progress in Germany. It started in 2007 and the last peak was in Dec. 2013 when a couple of ten thousand cease-and-desist orders where sent to IP adress more or less legally collected. Wifi is still legal but most SMEs don't offer it because nowadays you need a legal team to handle all the orders. So companies like Starbucks will continue to offer it but restrictions to prevent misuse will rise. That's why in places like in Travemünde several smaller restaurants/bars etc. discontinued free wifi. In your private household, the Wifi must be protected with a password otherwise you are liable for all actions . Its crazy but that happens when politicians don't draft a law with due care. Now thousands of lawyers have work and courts can create new rules... jan (talk) 11:53, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Static map

Since this is our first cross-wiki FA candidate and previously one of the factor behind its failed star nomination was due to a non-availaibuty of a static map. I'm willing to create a WV styled static map for it, if its need to be have one. --Saqib (talk) 19:55, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Saqib, that would be awesome! I'm good at content but map making is not my strengh. Core points are the harbour, Niederegger (Vordere Reihe), Maritim and the sea promenade. Thank you very much in advance,jan (talk) 19:58, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I've created the map. Please have a look. Its not as detailed as our current dynamic map is but I hope it would be useful too. The map missing labels such as names of main roads, as I don't know the main roads of Travemünde so let me know about them. Also, any suggestion to further improve it would be appreciated. --Saqib (talk) 23:40, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Saqib, great job! The following streets are worth to be named (from left to right & south to north)

1. Auf dem Baggersand: street between Fishingport (eat 1 &5) and see 4 (sea resort museum) until Priwall ferry (do & see 5)
2. Vordere Reihe: street from Priwall ferry (5) via buy 1 (niederegger) until buy 2 (Matzen)
3. Kurgartenstrasse parallel street one behind Vordere Reihe
4. Promenade: The whole way along the harbour & sea front (see/do 7 until 1)
5. Trelleborgallee From Matzen (buy2) until Maritim hotel (sleep 8)
6. Kaiserallee From sleep 7 (Columbia) all the way north (sleep 6 etc.)
7. Am Priwallhafen Street on the other side of the harbour along the sail ship Passat and camping Priwall

Optional the street Godewind would be nice. Its the street direct along the train station. Due to you map i corrected a mistake. The geo code for the restaurant Marina was wrong. I correct eat 4 to the Promenade, where it is in the real world. Thank you & have a nice day, jan (talk) 07:56, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Done. --Saqib (talk) 10:22, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Saqib, i tip my hat. jan (talk) 11:58, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Also try this magnified version. --Saqib (talk) 18:16, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Saqib, that is impressive! Thanks for making the map. Danapit (talk) 06:45, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

So should I upload the larger (3,000px) resolution of this magnified version or are you going to use the original map? --Saqib (talk) 16:03, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Saqib i prefer the original one because the magnified looks not so "natural". I know i'm old fashioned, so if you think the other serves people better, i wouldn't object. Thank you for your feedback, jan (talk) 16:23, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Well if you ask for my preference, it would be for magnified one because the latter version is more focussed on listings. --Saqib (talk) 13:34, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Saqib, i changed to the zoom version. My only concern is that the legend looks a bit oversized. Could you shrink it? Also then the street from buy#2 Matzen to sleep#7 Columbia needs to be named Außenallee. Otherwise the main street name would look empty. jan (talk) 13:49, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Done. --Saqib (talk) 14:01, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much and have a great weekend! jan (talk) 14:15, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Trains not listed on the DB website

So the article currently claims there are trains that the DB website knows nothing about that go to Travemünde. This is the first time I hear that. Can someone confirm or deny that? Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:39, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing this out. I've removed the corresponding remark as DB is even legally obliged to at least show all trains that call at every station regardless of the operator. Cyclearound (talk) 14:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Star nomination

The last nomination was slushed due to the map. Now Saqib made a new static map from scratch. I asked User:LtPowers if he is fine with the static map and got a positive response. In about three weeks the first crosswiki presentation starts and imho a star article would be a nice touch to it. Joachim helped with the map, User:Jjtkk had initially the first support and User:Danapit was so kind to help out as well. Any feedback is welcome. I will try to expand some parts but the season just started, so new businesses will show up in the next weeks. jan (talk) 08:01, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Nitpick: In my opinion, if you think this guide is substantially complete to the extent that it deserves Star status, I will certainly respect that and defer to you, and it's surely a beautiful guide. The one nitpick I have at the moment (not having read through the current version of the article in detail) is that the last photo goes past the end of the text (at least on my screen). It's not drastic at all, but it doesn't seem like an absolutely optimal practice. Ideally, a photo of a train station probably should be in the "Get in" section, but that would displace the map. But I don't think that's essential, and the solution is just to move it somewhere where it's not in the way of anything but also doesn't go past the end of the text. It could be as simple as putting it in the "Connect" section. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:27, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Ikan Kekek, good spot. Corrected, guess my perspective concerning the train station is leaving rather than arriving. Concerning completeness: I listed all businesses who come to my mind and are well establish (Travemünde tourism only lists one more business than i did). I know Drink is short but that is due to the seasonality of the town. There are some other waterholes but they are seedy (lets say you need a certain level of alcohol to find that places funny) and for serious nightlife you have to go to Lübeck. Travemünde is a rather calm place, where people stay in their apartments, hotels etc. and might go dancing in the Maritim or Columbia hotel later on. jan (talk) 08:44, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

It might be worth mentioning some of this at the beginning of the "Drink" section. Thanks for moving the photo. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:08, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Nooooo, the photo has to be in Go next cause it shows this huge departure clock to Lübeck. Also someone broke the rhythm of check/Lübeck verse ;) Jjtkk (talk) 17:30, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

• Comment — Sorry Jan but I'm not satisfied with current state of article. I would like to see the lead section and well a few other sections a little bit more expanded. (i) How much a train ticket cost to get into Travemünde from Lübeck and on weekends, many more trains arrive from where and how much they charge? It would be helpful to have same information available for by bus and by ferry. (ii) Are they anyway other to get around the town such as taxis, local train et cetra? (iii) Beach is towns main attraction and I would like to see the listing expanded as much as possible. --Saqib (talk) 12:07, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Saqib, travelling by train in Germany is a sophiscated topic. The Germany articles tries to explain it but the mixture of network vs. regional vs. DB tickets leaves even Germans lost sometimes.

1. Price: Same for bus and train if you travel point-to-point from Lübeck (network ticket three zones = 3 Euros). I can add that easily
2. Extra trains: Trains are operated by DB and regional transport, on special occasions e.g. Travemünder Woche there will be a special schedule http://www.verkehrsinfo-nord.de/cgi/page/en/GrossveranstaltungenTravemuendeTravemuenderWoche.html This is a complex and can only be explained very general or you will need a mathematical model
3. Get around: The core area of Travemünde is pedestrian only (bikes are allowed as well) e.g. Vorderreihe and the Promenade. German towns/cities pride themselves to keep cars out of the city center. Theoretically you can use a taxi and there is a local bus that run some streets every two hours but in real life people either walk or use their bike. Also keep in mind that Travemünde is compact (with the exception of the harbour but there you will end up on the ferry). To give you a better understanding: The big street between harbour & town is blocked on purpose to not allow cars to go directly to the town.
4. Expansion: Keep in mind that all major infrastructure (airport, central train station), public buildings (town house, hospitals etc.) or nightlife (clubs) are in Lübeck. This is only a very small town which happens to have a center you can circle in 30-45 mins depending on your walking speed. I don't hide places, i can add supermarkets, bakeries and a newspaper station but it remains a small place. jan (talk) 12:57, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

In addition, though I can't address this specific case, my experience is that, forgetting about various kinds of discounts, the price of a train ticket depends on how long before your date of travel you buy your ticket. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:05, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Saqib no worries, i prefer straight and hard talk. Your second opinion is valuable and i think it needs to be clearer for other people. As Ikan says, too rail travel in Germany sometimes requires analytical skills;) Too many dimensions. Germans are aware of that but the traps for travellers are hardly avoidable. I will try to improve but see Travemünde in essence like a district of Lübeck which is out of town. jan (talk) 16:27, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

• Not yet; the map you showed me is not actually in the article. Powers ^(talk) 20:52, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Powers, you raise an interesting point which is due to the dynamic maps. The map i linked on your page is their {{Mapframe|53.9603|10.8735|zoom=15|width=500|height=500|staticmap=Travemünde travel map.png}} The link to the mentioned static map is below the dynamic Other maps for Travemünde: Full-screen version - printable static map. (Edit GPX). Do i understand your point correct, you would prefer to have the static map as default and the dynamic in the back? Or shall both be presented? jan (talk) 06:54, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Well if I didn't notice it I don't think we can expect the average reader to. And certainly, one of the points of having handcrafted, static maps is to facilitate printing of the article; that's mooted if the map isn't actually displayed in the article proper. I believe the hand-crafted map, if it's well made, should be sufficient but if you still wanted the dynamic map for some reason, it seems reasonable that they could both be in the article. Powers ^(talk) 13:30, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Powers i will change according to your suggestion as this seems to be the star standard. I assume this will be a topic for any nomination (dynamic is pretty widespread already). Is there any other topic? Regards, jan (talk) 13:35, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, now that I take a closer look I have very strong concerns about the prose. There is very little of it. The lead section is bare-bones; the Understand section is dry and encyclopedic; and the See, Do, and Buy sections have no introductions. The Wikivoyage:Tone throughout is very dry and perfunctory; there is none of the sparkling prose that we usually expect as examples of our best work. Powers ^(talk) 00:29, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Same concerns here. --Saqib (talk) 00:34, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

(ec) Also, our star standards ask that listings be in alphabetical order (geographic order is also acceptable, but I don't see any strong case here for that). Powers ^(talk) 00:34, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

• Support (again): ready to become a star. Danapit (talk) 17:50, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
• I think the Old Town should be marked on the map, not with a pinpoint but with perhaps a certain color to show the road(s) and extent of the Old Town. This is one of the strengths of the static map, after all. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 12:59, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

• Bump; discussion seems to have died out several years ago. Is it now ready to go?

In a quick peruse, the only problem I see is a few dead links. Pashley (talk) 18:28, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

• Support. Appears complete. Has gone way passed a 3 week discussion! --Traveler100 (talk) 09:52, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
• After a quick glance, it looks fine to me. The fact that everyone was nitpicking (openly) when this was nominated in 2014 implies to me that the article is probably good enough. Let's promote it and get this nomination out of the way so we can focus on other nominations. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:49, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Now I've looked through a little more closely, I can see a couple minor things like a listing with a poor description, and that sort of thing, but I think it's good enough. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:04, 10 November 2018 (UTC)