Template talk:Ethtime

Template for approval: ETHtime

Swept in from the pub

Proposal

Currently we use the 24 hour clock for Ethiopia, and I think this is one of the few exceptions to where Wikivoyage is using 24 hour time in a country that uses 12 hour notation. But for those that don't know, reading this article (which Nurg used to explain on Talk:Ethiopia two years back), Ethiopia's 12 hour clock is drastically different to how some other countries that use 12 hour time use, where the day (12:00 day) starts at (06:00 EAT) and at 18:00 EAT (12:00 night) would be noon.

We currently only use the format which is used by nearly the rest of the world, but I presume that locals would be seeing the time based on the Ethiopian way and not the way that the rest of the world uses, so here's a template that shows how that can be fixed. Feel free to modify the template but how it works is quite simple:

{{ethtime|21|30}} would produce 21:30 (3:30 night), and thus shows both formats. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:29, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

ETHtime discussion

Looking at the English Wikipedia article, it sounds like "Monday" starts an hour after sunrise (what I would call 7:00 a.m. Monday). Did I understand that correctly? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:22, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article says "The daytime cycle begins at dawn 12:00 (6:00:00 AM EAT) and ends at dusk 11:59:59 (5:59:59 PM EAT)", so I presume that it also is the same for Monday. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:27, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

This system was used also e.g. in ancient Egypt. There the daytime hours were stretch out in summer to match the sunset, as they were not at the equator – try to construct a watch! I think a template is a good idea, to avoid bad times due to arithmetic mistakes. But I think the template should allow giving the time either in 24 hr notation or as Ethiopian time, and it should support intervals. And it should be easy to grasp. Not easy. Could a {{ethtime|10|30|21|30}} be made to work in parallel with {{eth|4|30|day|3|30|night}}? Would those be easy enough to grasp? Is there a need for other variations? –LPfi (talk) 11:52, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

It could be possible, although there'd need to be a different coding method to get around that. I'm not too familiar with that type of method, and I've never attempted it, but I suppose I could give it a try. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:57, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

We do explain the alternative system in the Understand section of Ethiopia:

"In Ethiopia, the 12-hour clock cycles do not begin at midnight and noon, but instead are offset six hours. Thus, Ethiopians refer to midnight (or noon) as 6 o'clock. Airline timetables are based on the 24-hour clock and use the Gregorian calendar. To avoid confusion, we use the 24-hour format in all our Ethiopian listings."

Is this sufficient? Are travellers actually going to encounter this often enough that we want to put alternative tines in every listing? Ground Zero (talk) 13:10, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

I'd think so, although I've never visited Ethiopia. If that is how time is displayed in Ethiopia, why would they even think of using the format that every other country uses? (a similar question when dealing with metrics and imperials except that this is much rather on a country that is lesser known) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 13:20, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

If I've understood this system correctly, it's not just the time, it's also the day of the week. Imagine a sunrise church service. If it were in most of the world, you might write something like "The sunrise service begins at 6:00 a.m. every Sunday. Arrive half an hour early if you want a seat, and plan to stay until 7:30 a.m." There, the equivalent would be "The sunrise service begins at 11:00 p.m. every Saturday. Arrive half an hour early if you want a seat, and plan to stay until 12:30 a.m. Sunday." (Or something like that; I'm still not confident that I've got this right. It doesn't feel intuitive to me that when the sun comes up, it's still yesterday.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:09, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Could we get some input from someone familiar with Ethiopia? I think it would be a bad idea for people who don't know the local situation to go around changing this. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:10, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

I spent 2 and a half weeks in Ethiopia, so I'm not a complete stranger to it. I suspect that virtually all locals who can read the English WV can already switch comfortably between the Ethiopian and Western time systems themselves. In that regard, I suspect they don't need to see local times here. If I'm right, then local times are unnecessary, and the question is whether there would be disadvantages to adding them. I can think of two possible disadvantages. Perhaps it would make listings a bit unnecessarily cluttered. The other would be if the expectation of using a template created a bit of a hurdle for infrequent editors - we get precious little editing of Ethiopia articles as it is. I'm undecided, and I don't like to be negative about a technically nifty little innovation. Nurg (talk) 06:04, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

I think the Ethiopian times are very useful for foreigners, who can get puzzled while reading our articles instead of when having arrived. At that point they are hopefully already accustomed to them, if we use them. The other reason I think they are useful is that the traveller easily sees the opening hours on the door are the same as in our guide, and thus up to date. Otherwise they need to do their own calculations for knowing when to show up, if they don't blindly trust us. They are also less likely to make mistakes, if they can see the Ethiopian version after having added an entry and compare it to what is said locally. –LPfi (talk) 17:23, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi LPfi. Your comments are interesting and I can see that theoretically, at least, it could be a problem. Are you able to provide any references that show that the use of Western time only is a problem in practice for visiting foreigners? Nurg (talk) 23:03, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Not from travellers, but the quote from this article you mentioned in Talk:Ethiopia, this bit is a perfect example on how it can get confusing:

Once, for example, he and his colleagues set up a meeting for 6 o’clock. Oznoyan thought, “6 p.m., no problem.” But a bit after noon he got a call from the guy he was meeting. “He calls, 'Where are you? I'm waiting in the downstairs.'” Oznayan says. “[I ask him] 'Why?'”

It turns out, Oznayan’s colleague meant 6:00 in Ethiopian time, which is noon by Oznoyan’s clock.

And what more, travellers are much more likely to get confused than businessman because, who knows how the time works there unless you read about it? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:12, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

We're using the 24-hour nn:nn format though, not the "o'clock" format, so a problem exactly like that would not occur. Nurg (talk) 08:38, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

We are using the 24 hr clock, yes. But your local friend is not, nor is the shopkeeper. If your friend suggests to meet at the bar at 3 o'clock, then you have the problem. –LPfi (talk) 16:16, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps the most useful advice will be to recommend confirming the time of day: "Six o'clock, just before sunset?" or "Six o'clock, around lunch time?" WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:18, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

(Replying to LPfi) I don't see how ambiguous conversations outside of WV, using a format that WV doesn't use, apply to how we write WV. Nurg (talk) 07:44, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

I have a friend who worked in Ethiopia for several years. I pointed out this discussion & asked for comment. Her reply was:

Good explanation. The date is different, too. It's 2013 according to the Ethiopian calendar. And there are 13 months. New Year is 9/11 on our calendar.

Pashley (talk) 03:00, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

OK, I guess that presents a challenge to our events calendar. How many people go by the same system as the U.S.? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 12:26, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Most of the world, but not quite everyone. For example, I believe that the Hebrew calendar is still in general use in Israel. However, I think that all of our readers and most people who have any business dealings at all are familiar with the Gregorian calendar (=the one used in the US). WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:34, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Okay. Maybe we should show both times and calendars, though I’m not sure how much work that would require to implement. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:53, 31 August 2021 (UTC)