Wikivoyage talk:Joke articles/Time travel

Some additional thoughts here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous#Historical_Tourism...

I note we haven't mentioned Itinerarium some of which aren't dissimilar to the schematic maps you get in Motoring organisation handbooks for motorways and such... ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 16:26, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Cargolifter Zeppelin NT

In the late 1990s / early 2000s there was briefly an attempt to revive the rigid airship as a mode of transportation (primarily for cargo) after building one prototype (or rather a flying scale model) and a gigantic hangar (the building that is now the swimming pool adventure indoor park thingy "tropical islands" in the nowhere of Brandenburg) Cargolifter noticed that they didn't have any money left and filed for bankruptcy, while Zeppelin kept their half rigid airship and scrapped all plans of building a full sized rigid one and resumed their more profitable business elsewhere. I know there is a joke in this somewhere for the "by Zeppelin" section, but I can't formulate it. If one of y'all would I'd much appreciate that. Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:58, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd listed Hindenburg and Titanic just because both are so hopelessly doomed (and therefore an easy target for jokes). I suppose there's the Goodyear blimp, which isn't completely rigid, but otherwise there aren't that many lighter-than-air craft left any more unless one includes Montgolfière balloons, weather balloons, drone-sized toys and the like. K7L (talk) 20:03, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

That's kinda the point: When the Hindenburg disaster (along with, believe it or not, the Nazis' anti airship policies) more or less killed airships there was a revival in the 1990s. All that has produced is a ridiculously oversized hall in the middle of nowhere, that now houses an amusement park that is not profitable (or has at least that reputation), so you could say anything ever touched by Zeppelins seems to be doomed. In a way the whole thing could be described as the "German Solyndra" (for reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CargoLifter though the German WP is much more detailed on the issue, naturally) Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:14, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Oh! The humanity! --Andrewssi2 (talk) 20:24, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

That went over like a w:Led Zeppelin. There must be some really obvious hot air jokes I've missed. K7L (talk) 22:30, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

so? Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:19, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

London the center of the universe?

Why does it appear as if London were the centre (sic!) of the universe regardless of era? I do think, there are other places to buy groceries in the 19th century, aren't there? Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:08, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

This is unfortunately my fault, I've no objections to the London content being split to a sub-article, as has been done with other regions :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 16:22, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Split London Content to sub article? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:11, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I ain't got nothing against it, but you might need to get consensus from the other contributors first. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:30, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Waiting for someone else's opinion? I think it's OK to make a separate article for London (it'll be up to you to move the content, though). ϒpsilon (talk) 19:06, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

In Cod we Trust

I don't get this one:

• Don't go to war with a country without an army. As Great Britain can tell you, all that leaves you with is cut fishing nets and a lot less cod.

There's a reference here that I've missed. You intend to deploy an army to defend cod stocks? Even the Newfies are smarter than that... they'd send the navy. That said, there has been a huge problem with common market countries deploying their fleets just outside other countries' 200 mile limits and sucking out basically all the fish; the issue is worse within the EU as they can fish (and overfish) within the boundaries. It's a key motive for Iceland being a non-EU member, despite its involvement in EFTA. It's also a very sore point in Canada, where the Newfoundland cod fishery was shut down in 1992 in an economically-crippling moratorium that has created outright ghost towns of a few outports. K7L (talk) 17:14, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

See w:Cod War ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:24, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I feared it could be to obscure... And yes that's what I was referring to. On a related note Costa Rica hasn't had an army (well officially that is, their "fuerza publica" is better equipped than some armies) since 1948 yet still won a set of diplomatic "victories" not the least of which being Esquipulas II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esquipulas_Peace_Agreement where they more or less duped the US and Nicaragua Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:22, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

It's tempting to juxtapose "cod war" and "cold war" as conflicts of equal import and magnitude... and yes, the Cold War was *very cold* - just ask at CFB Alert, Ellesmere Island, formerly Northwest Territories at 82° north. The only way to get a geosynchronous satellite signal in was to send it to the weather station at Eureka (which was only 80° north) and then haul the data overland via UHF radio links. Nice and close to Santa Claus but not much else. K7L (talk) 00:53, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Yeah right. There were those army bases way oop north... Wasn't one of them called Thule? Somewhere in Greenland? Also the Soviets had a fleet of nuclear ice breakers going up and down the arctic, because (as we were bound to hear in history class) Russia didn't get the ice free port it always so desperately wanted. So you could see the cold war got freezing around the edges ;-) But there were also deadly "sideshows" such as Vietnam, Afghanistan or Nicaragua, most of them in warmer climates. Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:52, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Nuclear tourism#Accidents of nuclear weapon carrying aircraft has a B-52 crash in 1968 Greenland, check there? There's also Siberia of Gulag fame (not to be confused with Scarberia, a Toronto suburb...). Afghanistan (while not Siberia) can be cold in winter too... that's why it's best to knit an Afghan to keep warm. K7L (talk) 03:17, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Witch Trials

".. Salem Witch Trials, Danvers, 1692. ... Alas, it's nothing that burning a few witches at the stake can't fix. Fun for the whole family. ..."

I'm querying this on the basis of accuracy. Heretics were burnt, I thought witches were typically hanged? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:51, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Some witches were burnt, but I think those in Salem were hanged... I am too lazy right now to read the whole article, but here it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials

Nineteen were hanged, one was "pressed to death", a few others died in gaol. I've updated this to say "executed witches and heretics" without specifying a cause of death. I haven't had a chance to look at splitting out the excess London text yet. K7L (talk) 22:07, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Anglo-centric?

When I asked on another forum for some ideas the issue of Anglo-centrism arose, they suggested that perhpas same coverage on for example the w:Dutch Golden Age might be appropriate. Tulip Mania already has a mention, but putting in something positive as well, would be a good idea..

Sadly, I'm not sure how to approach the other language Wikivoyage on what isn't exactly a conventional travel topic article. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:05, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd expect that most of the major western European powers had vied to establish an Empire for themselves, including the Dutch, the French, the Spaniards and the Portuguese. (The usual jest at this point is to add the tiniest nations in Europe to this list, such as Latvia or Luxembourg, as tyrannical world powers but that's a bit of a stretch.) K7L (talk) 00:40, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

We have a throwaway line of a Swiss empire in the 23rd century... Maybe we make some country, that people only think of negatively nowadays get an empire in the future? Something like... Somalia. Or Alabama... Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:48, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Don't we already have Somalia and Alabama as failed states? Or was that Somalia and Michigan? I can't see Alabama becoming an empire unless they legalise marriage outside the family, but I suppose Arkansas is owned by the Walmart Empire. Other tyrannical historic empires include the Soviet Union (country code +7) and the Bell System (country code +1), defunct in 1991 and 1982 respectively. K7L (talk) 00:57, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

(tounge in cheek) Ah yes, "The Phone Company", maybe there should be a warning about them simmilar to the ones about Scientology in the London article? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 01:54, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Please elaborate. Is it as bad as or worse than what Carlos Slim does in Mexico and a couple of Central American countries? Hobbitschuster (talk) 02:02, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Have you seen a film called the "The President's Analyst"? 80.176.129.180 09:34, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Basically, AT&T was at one point the largest company in the US and controlled everything... you couldn't own your phone, you had to rent it from them - they even owned the lab that invented the transistors and the factories (Western Electric for AT&T, Northern Electric aka Northern Telecom, Nortel for Bell Canada) in which most or all of the phones were made. There were no Internet telephones or cellular phones, so the landline provider had an absolute monopoly. You could not connect client-owned equipment (such as answering machines or modems) to the lines until some lengthy court battles were fought (AT&T fought Hush-a-Phone for a rubber cup which went over the handset microphone but didn't electrically connect to anything, but the Carterfone acoustic coupler which linked to a ship-to-shore radio was the big test case and precedent - again no direct electric connection). Clients were denied toll restriction (leaving them liable on an unlimited basis for housemates' calls if in shared accommodation) and not provided with a means even to turn the ringer off for privacy when they wished not to be disturbed. If there was a rival independent company in the same region, Bell would refuse to interconnect with them or calls between the two providers would be long-distance (trunk) calls, very expensive as toll calls were overpriced to subsidise the (usually flat-rate) local service. Calls between two suburbs on the opposite side of the same large city were often long distance. Most of the rare independent companies served small, unprofitable rural areas; AT&T bought many of these for a pittance in the 1960s as they ran out of capital to modernise from "Number, please?" to automatic dial. The ability to select an alternate long distance provider had to be fought for, long and hard, being finally obtained in the early 1980s in the US and early 1990s in Canada. To quote Lily Tomlin, "We don't care. We don't have to. We're the phone company." K7L (talk) 06:09, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

"Hello Central" is another phrase. Mark Twain mentions it in "A Connecticut Yankee.." IIRC ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:41, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Sounds pretty bad. In Germany it was a state owned monopoly well into he 1990s and you had to prove to the Post that you "needed" a telephone. The private company that took over (Telekom / T-mobile) isn't much better in terms of service though. Carlos Slim arguably bought Mexican telecommunications for a pittance (money he had to get by credit) and continues to dominate much of the landline and mobile market. If for example you take your Mexican cell phone from Mexico City to Yucatan, you will have to pay roaming charges. Claro - a company owned by Slim - dominates the Nicaraguan (and other central American, but not as much) landline, mobile and satellite TV (cable is uncommon) market and basically dictates the price. Most people have a prepaid phone, but your account balance is gone within days if you don't use it. I have a feeling that telecommunications is a monopoly with high prices and arbitrary rules no matter what place or era... Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:56, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Odds are, much of the landline telegraph infrastructure historically was owned by the railways, the worst monopoly of all in their era. The term "robber barons" existed for a reason; Rockefeller owned the rails and owned an oil company, gaining the ability to make it prohibitively expensive for rival oil producers to get their product to market. Nothing new under the sun. K7L (talk) 18:44, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Broadcasting/ Media (and other things)

Some thoughts:

Meida isn't yet mentioned in any depth..

Local (physical) newsprint is where practically any tourist even 1990 would find listings data. I also had in mind publications such as Time Out and so on, did these have predecessors? Also don't forget the intermibly dull but gold mine of Trade publications :)

Radio is a 20th Century phenomena, but before that you have Speakers Corner (18th/19th century) for 'serious current affairs' as well as the pamphleteers (would Bill Stickers be the spam baron of an earlier era for example?)

The Internet is a third millenium media...

Nobody, so far's mentioned attending conferences on Trantor (the analouge in this era would be Wikimania) :( ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:16, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

« Oyez, oyez! » We definitely need the local Town Crier here as media. :) For pamphleteers, apparently one Johnathan Swift has a Modest Proposal seeking your attention? The 'spam' would likely be handbills posted to walls with glue... ick! K7L (talk) 00:34, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually Swift's Modest Proposal is a good choice to mention.. I can genuinely see a modern style actvist spamming something like that :) , "Plunge Forward" and add the section.. :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 00:44, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

The first epoch / war to be extensively covered by something a person today would call newspapers was the 1618-1648 war (called the thirty years war in German and the 80 years war in Dutch). However Martin Luther "fought" his reformation with a kind of cheaply mass printed pamphlet campaign as well. The peasant revolt's leaders spread their ideas in a similar fashion. Graffiti on the other hand have been found en masse in ancient Pompeij and are probably the same from the time writing became widespread to almost the present day. The most common ones in Pompeij appear to have been about pretty vulgar stuff and politics. Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:11, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

That, or (drunkenly inscribed on a wall somewhere, in Latin) "We're wineskins!" :) Does this article need a "Talk" section? K7L (talk) 01:16, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Talk section would be good, Some further thoughts...

• Radio 'hams' are from the mid 1920's ( I note so far media only covers print.)
• You have various correspondence circles... and the Penny Post ( which was very influential in GB), Pony Express in US (and re-established in "The Postman" on a simmilar tech level.)

• Broadcast media maybe a Connect topic?

• I think Old Time Radio deserves a mention, especially as some of them have inspired parts of the article... :)

On the topic of Grafitti, There's a lot of scope for Talk, Connect , Cope and even some Respect content... I say respect because some ancient sites have effective vandalism from later vistors.

Unrelated to media but Cultural vandalism is also s sadly a hot topic issue right now (so should probably be mentioned in Respect, addding Nimrud as things to see might be "too soon" though :( 01:41, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Cultural vandalism exists in many time periods, not just the present. Entire libraries were burned in antiquity as the result of war. Radio amateurs are not broadcasters (their two-way point-to-point communication, like that of "Number, please?" and the mess of incompatible smartphones, belong in "Connect"). There were "ham" radioamateurs on-air at the time of the "RMS Titanic" sinking (1912), although their stations were primitive Morse Code apparatus; these "spark coil hams" often used electrical transformers manufactured as ignition coils for those newfangled Model T motorcars (which had Dodge engines back before the Dodge Brothers started making their own cars in 1915). The requirements for licensing and station identification were introduced in a 1912 world radio conference after Titanic's sinking, and the "hams" were eventually moved to higher frequencies. In 1912 everyone was transmitting on the same channels, basically first-come first-served, as utter Wild West-style Morse cacophony. The old spark-gap transmitters used to splatter the entire band with noise, adding to the interference. The radioamateur service was shut down "for the duration" during the Great War (WW 1). Transmission of voice had been demonstrated by Fessenden circa-1906, but actual commercial AM voice broadcasts with those newfangled vacuum tubes was a 1920s phenomenon with stations like KDKA (Westinghouse) and CFCF (Canadian Marconi) signing on around 1922 as the early adopters. Certainly, telling travellers that they will have to build their own apparatus from scrap Ford Model T parts and learn Morse to get on the air as radioamateurs in 1909 would be a viable addition to "Connect", along with the subsequent developments. The move to the higher frequency is problematic for spark-gap transmitters, so hams adopting "valves" (or vacuum tubes) for their stations put them state-of-the-art of necessity at the time. There were also the "radio relay leagues", where messages passed from one ham to another through various intermediate stations - that era was the birthplace of ARRL and likely a few other RSGB-like organisations. K7L (talk) 02:50, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

TMT (Warning Box?)

Should there be a warning about attempts to time travel through biological ingestion of Thiotimoline (aka TMT)? Or would this come under the Drugs policy here?

It's not clear on Wikipedia if Asimov's inspiration is w:Catechin or w:Catechol which affect how strongly the cautionbox is worded.

The abbreviation is a concious choice, see the notes about about DMT on Wikipedia - w:N,N-Dimethyltryptamine, one thing a pyschedlic would do is make you think you've shifted in time. 18:15, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I think we have "bad 1960s drug trip" in some form as one of the transportation items, likely the magic school bus? K7L (talk) 18:36, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Yep, No harm in having one in Get in as well though? The one in Get Around is more a 60's counter culture reference as anything...ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:42, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

By semaphore

Actually, the precursor of the modern 419 con according to one source is the 'Spanish Prisoner' which is from the late 18th century era I think? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:15, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Ebay, Cragislist

What's the 18th century equivalent? I.E Buying at Auction.

Also what's the pre internet craigslist, where you can find all manner of cheap offers that aren't always what they seem. Note I also seem to recall some comments somewhere on a history show about dating ads being used to entice young ladies into less than reputable situations (Something to add to StaySafe?)

Sorry... I'm just trying to think how a modern Wikivoyage reader would operate and back date the methods to a period appropriate one. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:21, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Most likely, someone travelling from town to town, standing on a soapbox in a crowded market square touting worthless patent medicines? I think we already have that, or something close to it. K7L (talk) 19:44, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Big Bang

".. It's so powerful it'll fry absolutely any camera. ..." erm... Is this accurate?

Of Course even in the 1950's you can even still HEAR the big bang. (When did Radio Telescopes really get going?) , Worth a mention if any gave tours that early... ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:27, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Philosphy

https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Wikivoyage:Joke_articles/Time_travel&oldid=2743310 - thanks.. Although the Like X your thing. might have sounded more 'beat'-poet counter culture. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:01, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

ON Police Boxes

In relation to : ".. Another option is to simply flag down the TARDIS, which has a knack for appearing at the convenient place and time. .."

Was this a reference to the genuine British Police Boxes which were intended to be used by the public to summon assistance, and in the Mid 20th Century were a common sight? (The More You Know ;) ) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:06, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

So far, superb work!

Look at what we've accomplished with this article in just a week. It's still 3.5 weeks until April Fools day, so if we continue at the same pace (and possibly attract more contributors!) I think this could be our most comprehensive April Fools article so far. Kudos in particular to User:K7L, User:ShakespeareFan00 and User:Hobbitschuster (and may I say myself too). :D ϒpsilon (talk) 22:17, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, you too. I enjoyed writing most of the stuff I wrote ;-) Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:19, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

1) Ypsilon and others, As well as adding to the actual article, you might want to consider adding a "directors commentary" noting specifc facts, providing explanations (WP:REFDESK style :) ), or even noting tropes. This could also be to historical resource material on other wikis or off-site. I'm suggesting this as a directors commentary because Wikivoyage doesn't put citations or annotations in main-space. Of course such a commentary would probably be just as interesting in itself. How does something like Horrible Histories do the annotation/citation thing? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:48, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

2) BTW Check the Pub, I or an alternate account of mine made a suggestion for a Time Travel Guide as a seperate wiki(a) a while back, (I've even dug out the two pages I wrote as a test over at Wikiversity - https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User:ShakespeareFan00/Wikichronos and https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User:ShakespeareFan00/Wikichronos/London_%281951%29, ) Might be worth seeing if anything in them can be merged back into the article or sub articles if the London content is spun out, owing to it's length. It would be poetic if something that started as a joke article, could actually be turned into a viable educational resource, not just in terms of actual history (The stuff on planes and time zones is Geography/Sciene ) :) (Then again... I laughed at the concept of Horrible Histories which is now a lucrative franchise.)

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:54, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

3) I haven't yet started contacting GLAM, or Wikiprojects. If you want to get GLAM onboard with this "plunge forward" as doing historical interpretation as guides for "time travellers" is something innovative museums have done. (Not to mention that in Europe and North America you do have living history sites, something the article makes reference to <g> ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:59, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Revision as of 22:37, 7 March 2015

Is this a US vs UK English issue, or is it taxnomicaly ( ie. scientifically a mould).

And it brings up 2 content related points,

1. Older spellings albiet Latin script will crop up on signs, in print of an earlier era etc.
2. Ye Old Gothyck fepllynge compleat wyth funt thou censt transcybe by optickal mechanyick. (I.E The old-style gothic spelling complete with font you can't OCR, There a few works like that on English Wikisource...)

We have a note about a language difference in speech, not necessarily in print.. And some publishers used Gothic/Fraktur/"Blackletter" until the 20th century, even for serious academical works.

There's also the matter of Ligatures which have fallen from use. You won't find "Ye Red Lyon" but you may find a thorn with an superscripted e (see: w:Ye_Olde ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:19, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

As opposed to Ancient Greek, which would have used that country's character set instead of the Latin alphabet? K7L (talk) 23:35, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Good point :) Cyrillic in Russia, Kanji in Shougnate Japan (an absence in current coverage, is there a jp.wikivoyage that could be asked to assist on expanding ? ) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:41, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I think .jp didn't fork from WT to WV when the other languages did. No idea why/why not. K7L (talk) 23:59, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

There is/was a travel wiki site in Japanese? I mean even the Spanish one seems to be mostly empty space and Spanish has like two times as many people speaking it as Japanese... Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:07, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

( Bother. I don;t have a Japanese guide book to hand. :( ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 00:12, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Penal colonies

From w:History of Australia, it looks like the sentencing of convicts to transportation to the colonies originally sent them to America. Only after the revolutionary rabble in that colony degenerated to the point of open insurrection did the motherland start dumping convicts in Australia. (Australia, in turn, dumped its convicts on Norfolk Island, so anyone who was sent to gaol by the Norfolk Island authorities was pretty much the bottom of the heap.) Australia seemed to be mostly flax and timber export, inexpensive/free land for colonisation, export of wool from sheep farms and some mineral extraction (including gold and lead). It was also a means for the British to counter-balance the strong Spaniard presence in South America militarily. K7L (talk) 23:33, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Hmm do we need a seperate page for commentary ? See my previous posts.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:39, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Week 1 Review

File:Digitalswitchover.jpg

Will the switchover from digital (Morse code) to analogue (AM radio) be publicised?

OK Where are the gaps in coverage? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:38, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

There's not much on music. ( Mozart etc... Jazz... 1960's happenings, Late 80's "wharehouse" parties... etc.) ...

I still need to put in some stuff on mass media (Radio/TV). ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:38, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

We're hugely uneven in favouring certain countries (pretty much everything here is or was part of the Roman or British Empire at some point) or certain time periods. Pretty much anything outside Europe or North America isn't addressed at all. We have more coverage of the last century or two than of the rest of history back to the big bang and the dinosaurs. We'll never cover everything, but we should at least try to get all of the continents at least mentioned. K7L (talk) 23:56, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I'll probably back off a bit then, Outside Europe isn't my area sadly... Maybe we need to ask other Wikivoyage for help? es.wikivyoage would be better for Coloubian era maybe? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:59, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I know a little bit about Nicaragua but sadly there isn't that much to tell about its history pre 1492, as the archaeological work there is really only in its infancy. They found a bunch of ceramics with the construction of the new canal and there are rumors of pyramids somewhere on the Caribbean side, but so far there was never any money/ interest to do something about it. Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:36, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Write what you can. I've put some informal notes out to the es Wikipedia IRC channel. Also going to ask pl/cs. Other than that it's going to be a case of finding Wikipedian's that know specific regions. Won't find many time travel writers in PRC though (officaly banned)ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 00:44, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd expect w:History of Japan (or "History of X" where X is any random country, Australia, China, Russia, whatever...) would give *something* which could be used, even if it's just to pick one random notable historic event which could be added as a "See" or "Do" listing for time travel? K7L (talk) 03:32, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Commentary : Thitomine

There's a a lot in this, the social media boast thing came via the Cinnamon Challenge as well as the 60's counter culture. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:46, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

The vomiting thing is based on the side effects of w:Nutmeg, suitably adapted. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:51, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

External Resource : Old languages =

- Some old languages ... ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:56, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

ON Cyropresevation

Some on the pl.wikipedia IRC mentioned this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexmission as another disadvanntge of cryo preservation... ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 00:45, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

The state of affairs thus far

Swept in from the pub

So, this is developing, It still has coverage gaps :(

Also it would be nice if someone was tracking if there's stuff in it that could be the basis of adding travel content relevant to the current era elsewhere. (Like a mention of a specific event in history, which might now have a museum and so on.)

There's a concern that the article is also anglo-centric, which needs to be countered given that the rest of Wikivoyage has articles covering the whole globe. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 00:56, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

All good stuff (I even helped out with the banner) but why take it too seriously? :) Pretty much I thought the idea was to throw out the guidelines.. if 'being too anglo-centric' is an issue (and I'm not sure it really is) then just contribute some other material to compensate. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 05:20, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

The reason I was being a little more serious, was because,

1. It may get media attention, (I've added a customised joke header to the article for that reason).
2. The more accurate a time travel guide is (tropey stuff aside), the greater potential it has as an educational resource. This is partly why myself (and others) in places tried to add genuine historical detail, or "period appropriate" comments.
3. There is a unwritten Wikimedia "directive" about trying to avoid unintentional bias in coverage.
4. There are things I've not added to the article because of policy concerns.

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:08, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

A travel guide being used as an educational resource for theoretical concepts in astrophysics? Concern about cultural or geographical bias in a joke article? It's almost as if this comment itself were an early April Fools' joke. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 13:33, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Well there was a point in (the article's) history, when half of its content was about buying groceries in London. So I do understand where this concern comes from. Still it'd be nice to have something about Africa south of the Sahara pre 19th century or the Americas pre 1492 outside of the typical MayaIncAztec human sacrifice stories... And yes I do understand, why you are a little baffled by people taking this joke so seriously ;-) Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:13, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd prefer to lose the box currently at the top of the article claiming to be an "educational resource". That's a ridiculously tall demand to place on something which was intended to be an amusement, especially since the hugely-broad scope (every place in the universe in every historic time period, including the future) is the biggest joke of all. If some real history slips in, so be it, but we could end up with many unfunny additions if we lose sight of the primary April 1 objective of the piece. K7L (talk) 17:43, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd also like to see the box at the top removed - the whole point of the April Fool's article is to create something silly that everyone can have fun with, and then post April 1 to tag it as a joke and return to writing real articles. While it's great if there are actual historic details in the article that might inspire someone to do further research about a time period, that should be a secondary concern to the primary goal of writing an article that makes people laugh and is fun for editors to write. -- Ryan • (talk) • 17:56, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Time travel for serious people

Time travel can also be marketed to serious-minded people for a scientific/historiographical mission to unearth various mysteries persisting since antiquity:

• Going back to Pakistan beyond the 20th century B.C., to decipher the w:Indus script.
• To find out how corrosion-resistant iron was created to make the w:Iron pillar of Delhi.
• To find out how the Tantric Yogis of India prolonged life upto 300 years or thereabouts by drinking alchemical concoctions, as described in s:A History of Hindu Chemistry Vol 1/Introduction/Chapter 4.
• In more distant past, for more adventurous and daredevil people:
  • To find out if nuclear weapons like w:Brahmastra were really used in the w:Kurukshetra War.
  • To find out more about how ancient Indians flew around in their w:Vimana.
  • To find out more about ancient use of inter-galactic space-ships, described in Robin Cook's Abduction, as used by Princess Revati on a short visit with her father to w:Brahmapura, who finds, on her return to earth, that centuries had already elapsed. (The same was experienced by w:Lazarus Long in recent times.)
  • To find out more about the mysteries outlined by w:Erich von Däniken and w:Graham Hancock.

Hrishikes (talk) 03:40, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Would it be worth visiting a few of the archaeological sites back when they were still functioning cities and villages? K7L (talk) 04:37, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, archaeologists can visit w:Meluhha or w:Hastinapur or w:Troy. They can also trace the line of migration of the Proto-Indo-Europeans by visiting their original abode before the Deluge or points in their route like Kurgan on the way to Europe and Mitanni on the way to India.

Alternate dimensions can also be visited, like the forest near w:Hogwarts to find out more about exotic flora and fauna, or the Gameworld to find out the shape-shifting tricks of the Rakshasas or the inter-galactic portals. But beware that you don't get accidentally eaten by the natives of those places! Afraid? Then the island w:Ogygia is the place for you, where you can peacefully interview a Titan's daughter, and maybe have her for a girlfriend! (as did Leo in w:The House of Hades.)

Hrishikes (talk) 04:51, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks , feel free to "Plunge Forwad" and some of those, I added a sub heading ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:36, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

I do think we should cut down on the mythology in general, lest somebody demand we include a reference to Thetans... Also I think, that fictional universes that are obviously meant to be fictional, are beyond the scope of this article. Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:34, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Wrongheaded predictions

These lists are pretty much a dime a dozen:

• http://www.fastcompany.com/1706712/timeline-failed-predictions-part-1
• http://inventors.about.com/od/famousinventions/tp/bad-predictions.htm
• http://www.av8n.com/physics/ex-cathedra.htm and http://www.2spare.com/item_50221.aspx
• http://rinkworks.com/said/predictions.shtml or http://www.michaelclark.name/jokes/lists/words_of_wisdom.shtml

What can be more palpably absurd than the prospect held out of locomotives travelling twice as fast as stagecoaches? Rail travel at high speed is not possible because passengers, unable to breathe, would die of asphyxia.

...and plenty of other "this will surely amount to nothing" moments. K7L (talk) 16:20, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

You Say Potato but I say Potato...

Wikivoyage:Joke articles/Time travel/British phrasebook , Trying to recall all the clipped RP expressions used in "British" films. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:52, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Does it make any sense to ask for a "Canadian embassy" when speaking English (and not American)? The Empire uses high commissions and deputy high commissions as embassy/consulate to other realms. We have an existing foreign translation dictionary which may be of use. K7L (talk) 18:08, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Good point, someone from the Empire might reasonably just as well as say something along the lines of "I need to speak to the Foreign Office!"

which also IIRC dealt with colonial matters. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:48, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

One would translate "the State Department" from American to English and get "the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO)". In Canada, "external affairs" would be the "Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade" (DFAIT, as in the French word for defeat, "défait"). Not quite the same as an embassy or high commission, although those missions would answer to that government department. K7L (talk) 04:59, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

There also a Latin Phrasebook stub, but it needs a classicist with a sense of humor to do the translations :( ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:46, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Search online" for latin phrasebook", a few lists of phrases already exist.

Just don't get the Hungarian from http://www.montypython.net/scripts/phrasebk.php :) K7L (talk) 15:07, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Can't use it in the article but

http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/03/23/lifetimes/asi-v-tourist.html

Asimov himself wrote an affectionate paraody on travel writing :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 00:20, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Please add a Weather section

Temperature through ages

Just like our region articles can tell the traveller to "avoid December-January because snow falls and blizzard block any activity" or "the best season to visit is May through September", this article should let the time traveller know what are the best ages to enjoy vacations, and the ages to avoid. Cheers! Nicolas1981 (talk) 03:43, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Does this really work? At any given time of year you can find the full range of temperatures on Earth. (You may see snow today, but it is over 30 degrees celcius where I am) --Andrewssi2 (talk) 04:00, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Avoid visiting during the Ice Age, or dress warmly? K7L (talk) 04:42, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

We could go into w:Global_warming , although it might push political hot buttons :) --Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:12, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I could just see "Support global warming!" being painted or inscribed onto a cave wall by a shivering caveperson during an Ice Age. Right next to "save the pterodactyl"... K7L (talk) 13:19, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Terry Prachett used that joke previously though in one of his Non Discworld novels I think. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:44, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I did add a short note about a fur bikinin not being the best idea for watching mega-fauna but I see what you mean... ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:20, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry to burst you bubble, but saying humans (meaning anatomically modern Homo Sapiens) were contemporary to pterodactyls is like saying New York and Los Angeles are three miles apart. And global warming is a proven fact. If some idiot tries opening a political argument about it so be it. We don't have to redefine what a fact is, because a small well financed minority tries to. What's next? Delete the LGBT section because it could prove "controversial"? Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:33, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

@Hobbitschuster: Maybe April 1st came a little earlier due to global warming?, which is why the article got started sooner ? XD (Sorry... cropped up on IRC.)ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:47, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

In any case, open the floodgates for time travel and *every* era will be overrun with pesky homo sapiens, including the prehistoric dinosaur era. Bloody tourists... K7L (talk) 06:52, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, dress warmly for ice age, and take some water with you for the scenic but harsh Red-Giant Stage, where you'll be able to enjoy the "magma ocean with floating continents of metals". Nicolas1981 (talk) 07:13, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Is there a quote from Wells or House on the Borderlands I can use? 80.176.129.180 09:28, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

LGBT Listing -

Worth adding this venue ? http://time.com/3393976/casa-susanna-photographs-from-a-1950s-transvestite-hideaway/ in the LGBTQ stuff?

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:03, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd be more tempted to add the Stonewall Tavern in NYC as a really good place to start a riot, well, sometime around June 1969? Anyone who's familiar with any of the gay protests would recognise that by name. K7L (talk) 23:22, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Isn't the Stonewall thing kinda common knowledge? I mean Obama mentioned it in a recent speech on a different topic. Maybe not the specifics or that is was a bar before it became a symbol, but that there was something and it had to do with gays and it was important in some way. Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:36, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

"The Stonewall tavern, The friendlist place in NYC for a drag party in 1969! It'll be a riot!" , which is in keeping with the style of humor intended and doesn't break policy,. Also head "Way-out east for a friendly club welocming crossdressers in London. " Tehcnically it's not that far, (Minories/Aldgate) but... ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:43, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

External links

( Which may inspire some thoughts in the article).. Feel free to add any you find below.

http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowUserReviews-g186605-d2306703-r257124138-The_Little_Museum_of_Dublin-Dublin_County_Dublin.html

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:39, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

http://www.historyextra.com/feature/story-behind-hidden-killers-victorian-home (The linked BBC Iplayer item has some more what to be aware of when buying. Lead in paint is obvious, but Paris Green might not...) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:07, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

IP edit

, the edit they made to this article was presumably made in good faith, so I am not going to immediately revert it, but mentioning it here, for a second opinion. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 23:05, 11 March 2015 (UTC) Resolved. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:28, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Aside: Speaking of Toy Currencies

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-31851805 ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:44, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Nothing new, there were one or two reported incidents where a US $200 bill with George W. Bush on it was accepted at a Dairy Queen. Now there's a joke of a currency. K7L (talk) 02:07, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Aside : Time Travel Humor

http://timeslikethis.com/index.php ROFL :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:52, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Hiroshima or Nagasaki atomic references in bad taste?

Not wanting to be a killjoy, but the atomic bomb attacks on Hiroshima or Nagasaki were really awful and are still in living memory and (at least to me) not something to make a joke about.

Is there a 'bad taste' limitation on the content we can put in here? Consider someone placing a joke about traveling to the World Trade Tower on 9/11 .... --Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:46, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Removed. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:25, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Replaced with a cautionary note concerning Tunguska. I still think that the guide should touch upon the WMD issue, for the sake of completeness (and because it's something that does feature in time-travel stories from the Golden Age of print sci-fi in the 1950's). The concern you raise is a valid one, so it's an issue of how to make a point in the relevant section whilst keeping it appropriate. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:42, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Tunguska is too obscure a reference... no one would associate 1908 with nukes. As tempting as it might be to go back to 2003 and explain to a certain Mr. Bush "It's Iran that's enriching the uranium for nuclear weapons, not Iraq, Mr. President..." the only comparable man-made explosions pre-Hiroshima would be conventional; the w:Halifax Explosion–– during the Great War (World War I) being a likely inspiration for Einstein's infamous letter warning that a nuke detonated shipboard in a seaport could destroy an entire port city. Would a warning (in 20/20 hindsight) to the master of the munition ship Mont Blanc to "slow down and watch where you are going as Halifax harbour is busy and crowded in wartime" be in suitable taste?

We already have 9/11... as "September 10, 2001 is the last day to board aircraft of any type without being presumed a terrorist by out-of-control, paranoid governments." Huge and lasting impact on travel and enough freedom lost that the terrorists *have* won, even if we haven´t included an 'eat' listing for "Windows on the World, 110th floor". K7L (talk) 12:15, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Per respect, you can't change history!! (so Halifax sadly has to occur), and I added a note at the end of that saying WMD aren't a luaghing matter. I added Tunguska because the actual causes are still the subject of quite intense scientific debate. It's tricky... 13:06, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

If you wanted a Stay Out nukes reference, one of the more major nuclear test sites would feature higher on my personal list than Hiroshima.

Outside of the this article, does Wikivoyage have a policy on "disaster tourism"? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:06, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't know of one. We have policies against advocating sex tourism and illegal activity. but nothing specifically requiring that we advise the traveller to stay out of disaster areas, ecologically-fragile preserves (short of their being legally prohibited from entry) or anything else. What little advice we do provide on this is to protect the traveller from harm, not to protect the disaster-stricken region from an influx of people they are unable to accommodate.

If you don't want to mention Hiroshima/Nagasaki directly, perhaps offer some of the advice ladled out in the name of "civil defence" and "preparedness" in the Cold War, ie: if you come under nuclear attack, duck and cover, don't look at the brilliant flash of light, hide under the table, head between your legs, kiss your bottom goodbye. There were various schemes for fallout shelters that didn't stand a chance in Hell (Hades) of surviving a direct nuclear strike, but were intended as means to shelter from radiation if far from ground zero. Most were intended for a Soviet or American ICBM strike which never came. As such, they're not linked inextricably to a specific victim city, such as Hiroshima, and repeating this "advice" deadpan now that the Cold War is over is mostly harmless. K7L (talk) 00:56, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Is there 'period advice' that was issued to key US personell? ( The section I've put in says it's not a sane choice.). Also given that this article also encompasses the future, it should cover energy weapon discharges that Area51 isn't telling the people about yet. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 01:02, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Plenty of 'period advice' for civilians in the Cold War era which seems almost bizarre in retrospect, from teaching "duck and cover" to announcing fallout shelters in various public buildings (such as US post offices or libraries); the various w:civil defence schemes were all worthless against a direct nuclear hit, but could have allowed those far from ground zero to duck from flying debris after the flash or take shelter from radiation if they were somewhere which was highly contaminated but still standing. Perhaps some of this originated when the weapons were both smaller and less precise - the two nukes dropped on Japanese civilians were in the kilotons range, not megatonnes. There was also all manner of speculation in the Cold War era as to what w:The Day After an attack might look like for the few distant survivors. The w:duck and cover article links to a lot of other topics with information on the cold war and preparedness of the era. K7L (talk) 01:39, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Caves. Mines and Underground works.

Something I hadn't thought of yet, but another stay safe concern, is underground works... Whilst for the most part these should be reasonably safe if maintained, I can speak from personal experience about the advice I got when visiting some old mine workings. Whilst the obvious hazzards here would be holes that aren't visible, there are unseen threats like potentially toxic atmospheres, and radon. This applies even to structures where you think it might not, like large stone crypts and so on..ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 01:11, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Isn't that why in the old days miners had little birds? Once the birds stop singing you run out as fast as possible.... Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:09, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

For toxic atmosphere monitioring yes, not for radon. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:18, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Well for Radon there is always the trusty Geiger-Müller counter, isn't there? And as a matter of fact, Radon tends to be a silent (and slow) killer that gives you lung cancer long after exposure, so most people won't know what hit them. It is in fact a big problem in some areas for anybody with a cellar, as Radon is heavier than air and naturally accumulates in cellars and such. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:32, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

That's why I had certain underground works in mind, like large caverns and so on.. What's the Geology in the Valley of the Kings like? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:28, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Anyone here able to add some in style comment to stay safe? I know this is supposed to be an April 1st item, but we seem to be adding practical advice as well as the funny stuff , Suprisingly. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:30, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Equip

I've put this section in because it's intended to deal with non clothing equipment.

Are there any suggestions?

• The obvious one I thought of:

What sort of rifle you take as a protective firearm if dealing with wilderness areas or wild animals? My thoughts were that you'd need something like a Lee-Enfield, but someone on IRC said musket-loaded designs are earlier. However, firing a muzzle loaded design is not necessarily straightforward as a breech loader. I am not needing a complete firearms development history, but perhaps some comment here would be reasonable.

• Monitoring equipment for specfic hazzards, which would have to be discreet. A dosimeter for radon, would have to be described very differently for a pre 20th century audience, in antigquity say 'It's an amulet to protect it's wearer from unseen miasmas.' or something like that?

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:06, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Enjoying this too much

OK I think I just invented something called a CHRONOSTRICTION notice. Anyone know of an equivalent document I could use as a real world analouge?ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:10, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

There's NOTAM, the notice to aviators, which can warn to stay away from problems like heavily-armed Russian-backed rebels in Donetsk and Luhansk. There are the various travel advisories from Western national diplomatic organisations, which are a good source for gloom-and-doom "Avoid all travel" warnings for obscure points where issuing the warning wouldn't actually offend a key trading partner or have any real diplomatic consequence. There'd also be national declarations of disaster areas, needed to mobilise militia or deploy federal aid after hurricane/cyclone/typhoon or tornado damage. K7L (talk) 04:02, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Also, they'll have to be issued at all points in time, retroactively, so that you can't get around an inconvenient one by first traveling to the year before the notice was issued, and then jumping to the now-restricted date. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:05, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Navigate Section

What to put in there?

And at this rate we WILL need to split the article. :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:22, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

We already have everything from Galileo/GPS to the "chariot association" maps and "all roads lead to Rome" in other sections. This could easily be pointless duplication if the section is created. K7L (talk) 16:06, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Fantastic

This is really good. Kudos to all involved. I've added it to the Signpost's own April Fool's joke. The ed17 (talk) 20:11, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Macy's

Ida and Isador Strauss owned Macy's, but were not its founders. It has changed hands many times. 2001:5C0:1400:A:0:0:0:37B 00:26, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Furthermore, reverting this edit by saying there's no need to edit joke articles makes very little sense when numerous other edits since April 1 have been allowed. Powers ^(talk) 00:23, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Whatever you say. I thought our policy was not to edit joke articles after April 1. I was allowing some edits shortly after April 1, but it's late August now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:40, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

As far as I know, the "plunge forward on some real articles" template wording was an artefact from the days when joke articles appeared in mainspace alongside the real destinations, so could be stumbled upon as if they were guide destinations and edited as such. Now that it's clear that Wikivoyage:Joke articles are not content, I don't see this as an issue. K7L (talk) 04:01, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't really care what our policy on joke articles is, as long as we agree on it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:05, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

I say any edit that is clearly neither vandalism nor edited on the presumption of the joke not being a joke shall be allowed to stand Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:53, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

So June and July constitute "shortly after April 1", but late August is a bridge too far? Powers ^(talk) 19:27, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

I may not have seen those edits. But in any case, if you don't think any date is too late, isn't this remark irrelevant? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:28, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

I've put this back to "owner"; Captain Obvious cruised by on a steamboat to tell me that the founder of Macy's is someone or other named Macy. My apologies for introducing an obvious error in an otherwise factual, reliable and accurate paragraph. K7L (talk) 11:45, 28 August 2015 (UTC)