Feel free to shut down this discussion if you feel it's too politically charged, but I just want to say that segregation was not only present in the South. It might only have been legally mandated in the South, but there were numerous segregated venues in the North too, perhaps one of the most famous being the Cotton Club in New York City. And speaking of which, the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles was also segregated, so if anybody knows about the story of Hattie McDaniel, the first black person to win an Oscar when she did so for "Gone With The Wind" in 1939, they made a special exception for her to attend the award ceremony, but confined her to a separate segregated table.
Also, I think we also need to address blockbusting and redlining which moved whites to the suburbs, and confined non-whites to the inner cities. Again, if you find it too politically charged, I will drop the subject, but I do think it is an important part of African-American history that needs to be addressed. I understand the WV community is sick and tired of me, and I'm sorry if I offended anyone by bringing this up, and if anybody feels that this is too politically charged for WV, please just drop a note here, and I promise I will drop the subject and never bring it up again. The dog2 (talk) 04:43, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- I was hoping the frank feedback given by the community recently at User_talk:Ikan_Kekek#Civil_war_and_the_South would have motivated you to take some time out for quiet reflection and leave this subject alone.
- This is a history article. Fine. If there are any relevant destinations for this article (north or south) then add, but please can we give up this obsession with race for a while? Otherwise I will nominate as a banned subject. Andrewssi2 (talk) 05:04, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- He's right, though. But I don't think we are hoping to recount a full history of African-American people. Anything even remotely approaching that would be exceedingly vast. So my feeling is that we should mention segregation in the North where's it's relevant. For example, the neighborhoods where African-Americans have lived in large numbers in Northern cities are those where they were allowed to live, as opposed to others where they were not (segregation, redlining). I think this is more an article about attractions related to African-American history than an article that actually has any hopes of even fairly summarizing that vast history. It is a daunting topic to try to do any kind of justice to. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:45, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- @Ikan Kekek:Could I please request that you add a summary of the stuff you feel is important regarded the points I raised in my first post. At this point, I think any edits I make to the Understand section of this page will automatically result in a User Ban for me on the basis of it being too political, so I'd rather not risk incurring the wrath of the community, and leave it to a knowledgeable senior editor like you. I will continue to add destinations where relevant as I think of them. The dog2 (talk) 05:56, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not prepared to do that right now, but I'll think about it. I think it's probably best to focus on destinations, but I will say this off the top of my head: Some topics to focus on that have destinations associated with them are slavery, free labor, military service, music (ragtime, jazz, R&B, soul, hip hop, etc. and also classical music), literature, visual arts, education (historically black colleges), sports, historically black regions (e.g. the Black Belts in the South) and neighborhoods, inventors and business people - it really runs the gamut. But let's focus on "See" listings and tailor whatever potted history we eventually include to those. I believe there is an offline museum of Jim Crow, and if so, that gives us a very good basis to cover that subject. I would also include something about soul food and also the contributions of the Nation of Islam (bean pies, for example). Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:43, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- Correct me if I'm wrong, but to my understanding, soul food is widespread throughout the South and not just an African-American thing, but it was to a large extent brought out of the South and popularised around the country by African-Americans due to the Great Migration. That's why in places like Chicago, soul food is strongly associated with the African-American community. The dog2 (talk) 14:38, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- I created this travel topic to mention important destinations (for example, Tuskegee Institute) to expand Wikivoyage's history articles and celebrate them, and also because people said there were not enough Africa-related travel topics. There are plenty of interesting places to visit that are related to African-American history; the "Understand" section doesn't need to be a Wikipedia-length article about the topic. I really hope this article doesn't become a springboard for political arguments, because it doesn't need to be that way. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:59, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- My understanding is that soul food is specifically African-American, and to the extent Southern cuisine as eaten and cooked by white Southerners is or is related to soul food, it's largely because of hundreds of years of black folks being the paid - or under slavery, unpaid - cooks of white families. Some white Southerners also have Gospel services in a style related to African-American Gospel services, and that's certainly authentic to those congregations, but it doesn't make the mixture between European and African influences (and Middle Eastern, in terms of the scripture) integral to Gospel services less fundamentally African-American. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:25, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- SelfieCity: In response to your remark above and also to a degree to Andrew's: Since this is an article that's specifically about a people who are treated as a race in the U.S., race is central to the topic and not something to even try to avoid, and given the history of African-Americans, racial discrimination and the way that the people have survived and been so vital in spite of it are central themes. But I'd like to hope these things are not controversial, and that we can focus on facts, and especially on specific sights travelers can visit. And of course I completely agree that we are not trying to duplicate Wikipedia. It's a total fool's errand to try to summarize the totality of the black experience in America in a single article in any event, and we don't have to; we just have to give a few relevant highlights and otherwise cover it as a travel topic. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:32, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
And not to try to open a can of worms here, but I just want to say that it's not that I'm obsessed with race, and in fact, I've spoken out against excessive identity politics, but unfortunately, it is the case that the U.S. has a long history of state-sanctioned racism that even if we assume that racism does not exist today, the legacy of this racist past is still very apparent in modern American society (in the form of, among many things, the higher poverty rate among African-Americans). Of course, I'd rather have a society where race is irrelevant, but because of this history, it's unfortunate that cultural sensitivities and political views are often divided along racial lines. Anyway, what I was trying to do with this discussion is to try to hammer out what aspects of that history would be important enough and of enough interest to casual travellers to write about in the "Understand" section. Out of respect for the WV community, I will not add anything to the section until we have a consensus here on what is important enough to include. This is not about white guilt or white bashing, but you can't deny that the U.S. has a ton of racial baggage, and likewise, the African-American contribution to this melting pot that is American culture is something that is too significant to ignore. I understand this site is meant to be non-partisan, but I hope that it will be OK for us to still have discussions about the factual accuracy of our content, and regardless of everyone's political beliefs, I hope that we can all be in agreement that racism is wrong, and that we can all celebrate the progress that has been made as a society in the past few decades regardless of what everyone's political persuasion is. And as for the direction of this article, what I hope is that it will be is a listing of sites that commemorate significant events in this history, and while things are not perfect yet, these monuments can serve as a reminder of how far we have come since the days of the slave trade and colonialism. The dog2 (talk) 18:20, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- I think America's doing pretty well nowadays when it comes to race considering that there was slavery here until well under 200 years ago. Unfortunately, skin color is very hard not to notice and in a country like America where there is a lot of diversity, identity based on race can only be expected. I also understand that (obviously) we can't avoid mentioning race in an article about the history of a race. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:19, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- And just one more point. Although some things are controversial, I hope WV continues to uphold the principle of staying true to scientific and historical accuracy, and that we never reach the stage where we start censoring factual information in the interest of political correctness or non-partisanship. The dog2 (talk) 19:32, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, but I think that we should maintain non-partisanship only when something is a matter of opinion; in other words we don't take sides on these things. When something is a matter of fact, especially if it's something that has a broad consensus among experts in the field, then I think that factual accuracy should take precedence over political correctness. The dog2 (talk) 20:07, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- It is a blatant falsehood to suggest that Wikivoyage has been censoring The dog2 and equating that to avoiding historical accuracy. We have been trying to keep articles relevant to travel and away from prosecuting political views (either left or right). Despite declarations to the contrary, the pattern of contributions do appear obsessive about race and decidedly uninterested in the promotion of travel at all.
- Wikivoyage should be a non partisan travel site with history articles that compliment travel. Andrewssi2 (talk) 20:14, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not suggesting that I'm being censored. Please don't extrapolate. I was simply stating an opinion about things in general. I don't think I've ever inserted any statement saying the "Politician X is bad" or "Policy Y is bad" in our articles. And in the context of this article, understanding this history of discrimination is key to appreciating the historical significance of the travel sites listed here, and I don't think there's anything controversial about that. The dog2 (talk) 20:25, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- Let's all please try to avoid general remarks about the nature of races and racism or implications about the degree to which partisan differences are or are not based on facts. There's more than enough to cover in this travel topic without a long global meta-discussion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:28, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
We just absolutely cannot list L.A. only for race riots (Watts in 1965 and South-Central in 1992). I'm tempted to take down the listing until we have something constructive to list, especially as it mentions no place to visit, nothing to see. When I think of African-Americans in L.A., I think of Karim Abdul-Jabbar, Magic Johnson and also the famous movie actors, but I don't know how many of them live in L.A. But seriously, we need to mention something like the cultural center I remember going to to hear a poetry slam. Sorry, I don't remember its exact name or location, but I think I listed it at some point years ago. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:52, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- I was trying to come up with places where significant historical events happened but if L.A. is too contentious, go ahead and remove it. But speaking of which, there are online web-sites that tell you the important places for the 1992 riots, including his lawyer's office where Rodney King famously said his "Can well all just get along?" line to try to end the riots. The dog2 (talk) 14:35, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- Those places should probably be mentioned somewhere, though not necessarily here. You could provide a link on this page if you like.
- I see what you mean. I would have added a point about the Ambassador Hotel where Hattie McDaniel received her Oscar in 1940, except that it is no longer standing as it was demolished in 2005. Speaking of which, should we list the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium? That place is still standing, and was where Sidney Poitier received his Oscar in 1964. The dog2 (talk) 17:55, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Sites associated with Frederick Douglass, Booker T Washington or W.E.B. du Bois
- Tuskegee Institute for Booker T. Washington. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:59, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry, I didn't read the title carefully just now, but come to think of it, there is the birth site of Malcolm X in Omaha, Nebraska. He is another civil rights activist, and while the house no longer stands, there is a marker at where his house used to be. The dog2 (talk) 22:23, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- The Audubon Ballroom is also now the Malcolm X and Dr. Betty Shabazz Memorial and Educational Center and covered in [[Manhattan/Harlem and Upper Manhattan. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:50, 30 October 2018 (UTC)