Talk:Cruising on small craft

See also: Talk:Cruising on small craft/Archive

Name

I'm pretty sure the proper name for this activity is just... Cruising. As opposed to "going on a cruise." The only other appropriate use of "cruising" that I know of is trawling for sex partners, which actually... could be a travel topic! I know the argument was made that travelers unfamiliar with the transcendence, perfection, and bliss of cruising might be confused, but the article already has at the top:

This article is about travel by small craft, including both motor and sail powered vessels, where the vessel is owned or chartered by the travellers, and may be operated by the travellers. It does not include travel by large vessels, where the traveller is merely a paying passenger, and the operation and organisation is provided by the vessel's owners or operators; for that, see Cruise ships.

Shouldn't that be sufficient? Can we move this back to Cruising over the disambiguation, and maybe have a pseudo-disambiguation/topic for all By boat travel? --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 17:38, 6 July 2012 (EDT)

Sounds right to me. Pashley (talk) 01:59, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Isn't a paying passenger on a small vessel, Gilligan's Island style, going on "a three-hour cruise"? Hardly the same animal as the White Star or Cunard liners (which were floating hotels), but also not the same as cruising on small craft where the travellers are operating an owned or rented vessel themselves. K7L (talk) 02:48, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Merge?

Should material from Hitchhiking boats be merged in here? Pashley (talk) 21:21, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

I think not. This is largely intended for the ones owning or chartering the boat, while the other one is for people crewing. The hichhiker should of course ideally be familiar with most points here, and for some people the two are alternatives, but I think links are enough. --LPfi (talk) 14:19, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Expedition

There is now a Wikivoyage:Cruising Expedition. Pashley (talk) 03:01, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

A lot of useful text and ideas?

When I first joined Wikipedia, the article w:Cruising (maritime) was really in a style that might suit Wikivoyage. I have had a look for the best version before it was mostly deleted and 'encyclopedised' in 2005. This version is the best I can find in the old style. I'm not sure what to do with that text - a sub-article here? Take sections and add them to this article? I felt it was a great shame when all that text disappeared from Wikipedia, but this could be a great new life for that knowledge here. --Nigelj (talk) 17:49, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Oh yeah, that's great stuff! Let's first move it to a sub-article here, and then work on merging content. --Peter ^Talk 20:35, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

OK. Thanks and hi, Peter. I've imported it complete as Cruising (maritime). It needs more work. --Nigelj (talk) 22:18, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Merge with Cruising (maritime)

Although Cruising (maritime) is a larger article, the name is more ambiguous (may be confused with travel on Cruise ships). The topic of the two articles is the same. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 07:11, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I see that was probably the original intention, so go ahead. I will probably be off-line for the next week. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 07:17, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I pasted the sections to this article. I think this was the cleanest solution history-wise (and because this article has the Wikivoyage structure). I will make some small adjustments right now, but the material needs more work, e.g. because this article should be also about shorter cruises. --LPfi (talk) 09:18, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Anything useful here?

I stumbled on this "seafarer's trust" article while searching for something else. Does it have anything useful? Pashley (talk) 18:02, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Late for the party

I feel kind of lame that I just stumbled upon this section, I've been working on articles such as Lakebay, Fox Island, Oak Harbor, Gig Harbor etc etc and trying to be aware of boating info, only to now realize how much was already in WV and I'm just now finding it. Looking forward to going through all of this and seeing how others have been adding info. Lumpytrout (talk) 18:47, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

I also started a section under sea kayaking which is listed under travel activities and should probably be integrated over here instead somehow. Lumpytrout (talk) 19:59, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Shared sailing

Coboat an 82-foot sailing catamaran going round-the-world and mainly carrying "digital nomads", people who work from a laptop while travelling.

I think this might go somewhere in this article, but not sure where. Pashley (talk) 14:59, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

I added something at Working_abroad#Digital_nomad_work. Not sure if she should also be mentioned here and/or in Cruise ships. Pashley (talk) 22:18, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

There's now a Digital nomad article which mentions this boat & another doing something similar. Pashley (talk) 00:39, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Bullet points

Just skimming the article, it does include a lot of bullet points. Is this a style we should try to avoid? Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:58, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

The long lists of bullet points are more or less checklists. Writing them in normal prose will just make them harder to read. Perhaps, still, we could try to cut them down a little. There is some discussion in the lists, which could be moved out of them, to have the points themselves more concise. --LPfi (talk) 09:23, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

To Guide and FTT

This one too could be a nice FTT for sometime in 2018. There's a lot of information in the article, is there anything relevant missing that prevents it from guide status? Even as I don't know anything about the topic itself (well, I've been on rowing boats in small lakes a few times but it probably doesn't count :P), there are a few things that does strike my eye; the listiness that was mentioned above, the short Do and Eat sections and a general lack of photos. --ϒpsilon (talk) 10:23, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

There is some work to do. The article was originally about long time cruising. It is now more general, but the origins show through and some other aspects are just hastily mentioned. I think we need some more yachters to get it into good shape. --LPfi (talk) 20:42, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Rename to Boating?

Boating is a shorter and more descriptive name. As a bonus, it makes Wikivoyage more distinct from The Other Site. /Yvwv (talk) 20:58, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Not a good idea in my opinion. To me "boating" suggests small boats and day trips. I'd say the title should be just "cruising" as originally suggested at #Any_sailors_about.3F above. "Cruising on small craft" was a compromise to avoid confusion with cruise ships. That's OK too. Pashley (talk) 11:11, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

I'd say this should obviously be moved back or moved to "cruising" since "boating" includes things like pottering about with an outboard motor on a local lake which this article does not (& should not) cover. Other opinions? Pashley (talk) 22:08, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

I tend to agree. This might mean that we need a Boating outline, joining the outlines on canoeing and kayaking. And we need not do anything with this article to distinguish us from the other site: the version imported is totally different, with most content here from Wikipedia. --LPfi (talk) 11:53, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

User:Yvwv: I see you moved it only three days after making the suggestion above. IMHO that was too soon, and a mistake.

I am strongly inclined to move it back. Objections? Other comments? Pashley (talk) 00:46, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Also Wikidata associations have been changed in line with the name change (by users over there). Those should be checked, unless we want to change the scope of the article, which there seems to be little support for. --LPfi (talk) 08:20, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Cruising on small craft has a much more specific scope than boating. The original intention of this topic was cruising on small craft which implies traveling from place to place by boat, carrying supplies with you, and possibly living on board or camping on beaches. The full scope of "boating" includes pottering around in canoes and kayaks, river rafting, paddleboarding, dinghy and ocean yacht racing, powerboat racing, fishing from boats and a whole bunch of other things which are not cruising on small craft. So, unless the intention is to radically change the scope of the topic, Boating is not a more descriptive name for cruising on small craft, it is a name of a different topic, of which Cruising on small craft is a subtopic. If the topic is to remain as originally intended, "Cruising on small craft", "Cruising on boats", or "Small boat cruising" are as concise and accurate descriptions as possible. Small craft has a wider size range implication than small boats, as boat generally implies smallish to start with. Just Cruising has too many alternative meanings, many of them having nothing to do with boats. (look them up if you want to know what I mean.) I would consider Cruising on boats acceptable as an alternative, though as a boating person I still lean a little towards small craft. Changing titles just to be different from WT is not sufficient reason when it confuses the issue. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 11:12, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

With this taken into account, cruising on small craft and boating would probably be two different articles. /Yvwv (talk) 13:52, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes, If someone is willing to create a suitable article on boating in general it is a valid travel topic. A lot of people travel to do boating activities. It should probably be a top level topic article and link to a whole range of boating activities, of which cruising in small craft is just one. There should be a summary section for each of the sub-topics. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 14:35, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

We seem to have consensus, so I have moved the article back to "cruising on small craft". For now Boating is a redirect; perhaps someone could create a real article there? Pashley (talk) 00:23, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Something to add?

Everything you need to know before going to Yacht Week in Croatia Pashley (talk) 14:27, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Taxes & "flags of convenience"

Why Does Betsy DeVos’s Family Yacht Fly a Foreign Flag?

Should our article discuss tax issues? Where to register a yacht? Does anyone here know enough to cover this? Is there a good link we could provide instead? Pashley (talk) 16:16, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Sure. As you said, it would be good to cover if someone knows (or researches) enough to do so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:02, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes. But the implications vary. Over here I pay no taxes for my boat, and few yachters hire crew, or are subject to the "over 300 gross tons" regulations. I do not know what countries have reciprocal arrangements with EU like those described in the article, but without them, I'd have to get my boat out of EU at least every few years to avoid importing it. And before Schengen I'd not been entitled to cruise between Nordic countries without customs clearance (which is a big deal if you want to cruise where the wind blows instead of following customs routes).

In short: there may be advantages, but you have to study your situation carefully to avoid the traps. I suppose foreign flags are mostly for those who have an army of lawyers at hand already and who can save some millions by avoiding use taxes and hiring cheap crew.

--LPfi (talk) 22:03, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Alternative banner for this article?

Banner currently used in this article

Suggested new alternative banner

I created a new alternative banner for this article (I initially created it first and foremost so that it would be used at the top of the parallel article in the Hebrew edition of Wikivoyage, yet I later decided to also suggest that the English Wikivoyage community would consider using it here as well). So, which banner do you prefer having at the top of this article? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 08:28, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

I like both but I like the alternative more. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 14:37, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Both are good banners, but in the second one the boat gets covered up by the text—I think it works better in the Hebrew Wikivoyage's right-to-left format. I prefer the current banner. The alternative could possibly be used in Eastern Panama or some other related article, though. —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:49, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes, good point. But is there a way to move the text to the right side of the banner, similar to the right aligned TOC function? --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 16:19, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

I prefer the current one. The new one looks good on Hebrew WV, but wouldn't work as well here. AlasdairW (talk) 22:55, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Yeah the alternative one is great for R2L languages, but I would still go with the current b/c the title will conflict with the main focal point of the image. --ButteBag (talk) 23:23, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Couldn't you just flip the blue image? There doesn't appear to be any words or such that would give away that the image was flipped. I think both a good images and I wouldn't be opposed to changing or keeping the original. DethDestroyerOfWords (talk) 13:43, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

But by creating a mirror image you've actually changed the scenery. Maybe it would be okay here, but I'm not sure. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 16:18, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

A mirror image of the boat would show incorrect navigation lights and other small details that would irritate an experienced sailor but most of us wouldn't notice. AlasdairW (talk) 22:33, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

We don't want to irritate sailors. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:10, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I've added the alternative to Eastern Panama for now. —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:11, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm glad you found a good use for it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:57, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Sailing redirect

Sailing shouldn't be redirected here as it isn't necessarily small craft.--Darrelljon (talk) 21:52, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Sail starting a comeback?

Swedes to build wind-powered transatlantic cargo ship (yes, it’s a sailboat) Pashley (talk) 13:19, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Outdated info?

Cruising_on_small_craft#Money includes a cost estimate that starts "In 2002 ...". What about now?

Are other things out-of-date? Pashley (talk) 00:35, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Inflation in the EU was close to zero until recently (from about then?) and the euro/US$ rates haven't changed that much, so I assume changes due to expectations are more significant than changes due to prices. And I assume there is some difference in price levels across the globe, so the figure cannot be reliable. I think a bigger issue is whether anybody cruises the oceans with a 28-foot boat – what are the costs with a 36-foot one ("the smallest reasonable size for typical cruisers")?

The bulk of the article was written long ago. I assume it hasn't been updated systematically. Do we have experienced sailors around?

–LPfi (talk) 07:20, 31 August 2023 (UTC)