Talk:Warsaw

See also: talk:Warsaw/Archive

Too many districts -- continued

Time has proven there are indeed too many sub-articles here. My idea is to merge them as follows:

• Praga Poludnie += Rembertow + Wawer + Wesola
• Wola += Bemowo
• Ochota += Ursus + Wlochy
• Wilanow += Ursynow
• Praga Polnoc += Bialoleka + Targowek
• Zoliborz +=Bielany

This would rid us of the smallest articles, with no prospects for growth. I will do it if nobody objects.

If it is not enough, the article number could be reduced further, but I think this should be the first step.

(WT-en) CandleWithHare 16:20, 2 March 2007 (EST)

Let's not do this, yet... First, I think, we should get our priorities in line (i.e. how to improve the guides, then after we've finished that (or at least to the best of our abilities) discuss when, how, whether or not to merge the districts. I'm starting a new page: Talk:Warsaw/Collaboration to begin the process. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 02:43, 3 March 2007 (EST)

IMO this issue has been already discussed above. The article is funny with such forced administrative distrification. If traveller is to come first, the districts should be merged according to Piotr's proposal above. There's no chance to include anything worth seeing in most suburbs, thus they don't merit self-sufficient article according to distrification guidelines. (WT-en) LukeWestwalker ⇔ 17:23, 3 September 2007 (EDT)

Universities

Is it to contain the listing of all higher education institutions? (WT-en) LukeWestwalker ⇔ 17:20, 7 October 2007 (EDT)

Districtifying

So, upon careful consideration and considering that the Warsaw article is making serious progress toward remedying the problems it had before, I'd like to suggest doing something that is mentioned above, albeit, in a different manner than proposed. My proposal is closer to Jani's.

First, merge Bielany and Biłołęka into Warsaw/North. Second, look into merging Bemowo and Ursus into Warsaw/West with a vague possibility of adding in Włochy. Third, consider merging the Eastern districts. I am suggesting to keep the Centrum districts and Włochy separate for now. Włochy seems like it could easily stand on its own and I don't think it needs to be merged. I have vague suspicions that the two Southern districts can stand on their own, especially as the city and developers are taking a little extra notice of these districts and are reconstructing some incredible landmarks. Thoughts? -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 16:51, 8 January 2008 (EST)

I'd be even more firm. I like the way Berlin got cut up. Something similar would be to:

leave Śródmieście as it is

and create

City/West with Wola, Ochota and possibly Żoliborz

City/East with Pragas and maybe Targówek (fits geographically, maybe not culturally etc.)

East with Wesoła, Rembertów, Wawer (Targówek)

South with Mokotów, Ursynów, Wilanów

West with Włochy, Ursus, Bemowo

North with Bielany, Białołęka (possibly Żoliborz)

(WT-en) Jjtk 09:02, 10 March 2012 (EST)

I am with you on that, but as a lifetime inhabitant and frequent amateur guide I would suggest:

• Śródmieście
• Praga (both Północ and Południe)
• Żoliborz
• Wola and Ochota
• South -> Mokotów, Ursynów and Wilanów (quite a bit to see there, and if you go to either district it is easier to combine to visit to other POIs in the south)
• North -> Targówek, Białołęka, Bielany (not much in common really, except for the fact that there is next to nothing for a tourist to see there)
• East -> Rembertów, Wesoła and Wawer (as above)
• West -> Bemowo, Ursus, Włochy (as above)

Please note the map has been replaced by a new version since this was uploaded. Some of the comments may have been made irrelevant. PrinceGloria (talk) 06:00, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

That said, I do not believe the district borders do splice Warsaw in a way that reflects potential tourist interests. I guess it would be better to have separate articles on central Warsaw (regardless of whether it would cross the border from Śródmieście to Wola, Ochota, Mokotów and Żoliborz at times), perhaps a separate one on Praga (you generally need a specific trip to get there, whereas the centre on the left bank is all within walking distance or at least a (shorter) tram ride), and then one on "getting out", describing attractions and places beyond the core of Warsaw, perhaps even including neighbouring municipalities (Konstancin, Jabłonna etc.)

Just my 3 cents since I've been asked for those :D PrinceGloria (talk) 12:30, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Anybody? No? Dust? On consideration, I would cut out Old and New Town from Śródmieście, as there are so many points of interest there, and the area requires an in-depth description. I am also tempted to merge the Praga's right now, so I'd love to hear any protest or support before I do. PrinceGloria (talk) 07:02, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

There ain't many contributors with enough knowledge. I definitely support merging Pragas. Separating Old and New Town too, I think. Can you draw a map of your idea, sth basic like ? Jjtk (talk) 10:52, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

I am very afraid this is the best I could do...PrinceGloria (talk) 07:48, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Good enough :) I generally support, I'm just not sure that Żoliborz merits its own article, it's small and has pretty empty article right now. Where would you want to cut off the Old and New Town area from the west: Bonifraterska & Miodowa or Andersa or something else? I believe that borders between areas covered in different articles should be clear (major roads, railways, rivers). Jjtk (talk) 10:20, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I would go along with MSI, I think it is pretty reasonable in that case , so it's Miodowa-Bonifraterska. The Nowe Miasto seems even a bit broader than the POIs I would like to cover, but the "extra area" does not really contain much of tourist interest, so I am fine with MSI with regard to that. OTOH, I was thinking it would be good to add at least the initial stretch of Krakowskie Przedmieście to the Old Town, then I thought of Mariensztat, and perhaps also Plac Teatralny and I guess it started getting all too sprawling, so I shall cover it all in an itinerary I started and keep with the MSI definition of Stare Miasto and Nowe Miasto.

As concerns Żoliborz, I guess it might be lumped together with Wola and Ochota into sorta "Centre-West" - the area is hardly homogenous, but has similarly lower density of tourist attractions than Środmieście and higher than the more outer districts. OTOH, the border between western Śródmieście and Wola is totally artificial IMHO, Muranów and Grzybowska have more in common with bordering areas of Wola (especially the Jewish heritage) than with most stuff east of Marszałkowska.

Then again, going by MSI is great for orientation, I believe. PrinceGloria (talk) 19:28, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Surprisingly, you brought up this point the same moment when I wanted to write about it. I don't have any good knowledge of Warsaw and visited the city only briefly, but my personal experience tells me that a separate article on the New and Old Towns (or perhaps even two separate articles on the Old Town and New Town) are highly desirable. I also support the single article about the whole Praga borough. Finally, Jewish Warsaw merits its own article, either as a separate district or an itinerary.

If you want a better map, please, let me know. I may try to draw one. --Alexander (talk) 20:51, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Wow, great to see so much interest in the article(s), here's to hoping for a growing and sustained collaboration to bring the collection thereof to reasonable standards!

Alexander, I am happy to hear we agree in principle. I do believe there really isn't that much in the New Town that would make the Old and New Town article worth breaking, but let's see down the road. I intend to create this article in due course for everybody to contribute and discuss where it should go further.

I would much rather have e.g. the Royal Road as a separate article than the New Town, but then I already started an itinerary to cover this.

As concers Jewish Warsaw, an itinerary would be the best way to cover this, I believe. This is an important part of Warsaw's history and touristic value, but from the historic point of view "Jewish Warsaw" was not really a separate entity but rather one intertwined into almost every area, era and aspect. I would want to make sure it is covered appropriately in the general and district articles, and then connect the dots by way of an itinerary. I must say I feel my knowledge with regard to it is limited, and I often found that visitors arriving with this specific interest often know more than us people living here, having done proper research themselves. Please feel free to lead the way with this if it is your area of competency.

As concerns the map, I guess we all agree on the division, so I guess we'd need something like the one I posted, but MUCH better. What we would need is IMHO:

• Having Żoliborz, Wola and Ochota tinted with the same colour, as per the above discussion
• A precise outline of Old and New Town within Śródmieście
• Certainly a higher resolution
• I would keep the districts described together visually separated like in my otherwise puny effort.
• Perhaps names of districts on the map would come in handy
• We'd need individual locator maps per every sub-article, btw.
• I guess if possible to do so while keeping the map legible, I would add key transportation features and axes, such as the Metro line, railways and most major streets perhaps

If you care to spend some time and effort on it, it would be most splendid. Let me know how I can help!

I would also try to go by MSI wherever possible, I think it aids navigation and helps organize things. I shall add a section on how to use MSI to navigate to the main article in due course. For now, let's hope we'll be able to dig Warsaw up from under the snow tomorrow in the morning... G'nighty! PrinceGloria (talk) 21:49, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I am afraid that I can't really help with improving the content of the Warsaw articles, because I am only remotely familiar with the city, and I am permanently overloaded with the stuff on Russian Wikivoyage. I neither have good knowledge of the Jewish topic, so I hope that someone spends more time on researching it. Regarding the map, you can see an example here. I think that a similar map of Warsaw should not be difficult to draw. Once we have the full map, locator maps can be easily prepared. --Alexander (talk) 22:39, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Well understood, except for the map part - can we count on you making one like that anytime soon? In the meantime, I plan to start the redistrictified district articles this week for you to see and approve or disapprove of them. Kindest, PrinceGloria (talk) 06:42, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I will try to draw the map in the next 2-3 weeks. --Alexander (talk) 08:55, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

That's great to hear, thank you in advance Alexander! Do let us know whenever you'll be getting down to it so that we could agree on what and how to include. In the meantime, I have started Warsaw/Old and New Town and Warsaw/South. Do spare a moment to take a look and chime in! Thanks! PrinceGloria (talk) 18:27, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Good job! The Connect section should contain information on internet access, mobile networks, post offices. From my personal perspective, good internet cafes (where you can, e.g., print out a boarding pass) and mobile operators and 3G internet (places to buy SIM cards, rates and packages available for foreigners) are most relevant. --Alexander (talk) 10:17, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't like the proposal above at all. In all honesty, it appears to be ill-conceived. It is mentioned that Wola and Ursus have a fewer tourist attractions than Srodmiescie and while that may be true, we shouldn't be catering simply to tourists, but to all travelers, including business travelers. Wola certainly shouldn't be lumped in with Ursus or absurd districts be created by Wikivoyage. Like I said in the "Western Centre" article, no one has ever referred to Wola as "Western Centre." Plus, if you give it this name, it will

Moreover, the districts should resemble the districts section on the guide, so we could re-arrange it to fit more like this:

• Warsaw/Centrum (Śródmieście, Wola, Żoliborz, Ochota) -- Wola, as was noted earlier, shares a largely ambiguous border with Srodmiescie. And, if you really think that there's very little for people to do or visit in the other districts, then it would be wiser to blend it into a larger Warsaw/Centrum article rather than creating another empty article.
• Warsaw/Praga (Praga Północ, Praga Południe)
• [[Warsaw/North] (Bielany, Białołęka)
• Warsaw/West (Bemowo, Włochy, Ursus)
• Warsaw/East (Targówek, Rembertów, Wawer, and Wesoła)
• Warsaw/South (Ursynów, Wilanów, Mokotow)

-- Sapphire (talk) 11:02, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Dear Sapphire, take a deep breath, relax, look at the map, look at the proposal within my user pages as linked in the section below, perhaps discuss with Steel, and then you shall see my division is very similar to what you just mentioned, with four differences:

1. Śródmieście is taken out of "Centrum" as a separate part, as the concentration of attractions and other POIs in that area would make it unwieldy to cover it in one section together with Wola, Ochota and Żoliborz, where attractions and POIs are much sparser. This is basically how we districtify in Wikivoyage, don't we?
2. Further, the Old and New Town are taken out of Śródmieście for the same reason, describing an area where nearly every building needs a separate listing (or two or three) within a district already rife with listings would make it a disaster to organize and use as a guide.
3. Targówek went to the North, as it is much more like Białołęka and Bielany with its tall apartment blocks, and not green and sparse like the other three Eastern Warsaw districts
4. "Warsaw" is not part of "Southern Warsaw" in the version above, instead of it we have "Mokotów". I believe it to be a mistake you made in haste.

Feel free to present more of your arguments, but first do acquaint yourself with the proposal we discussed here better, as given some of your comments (nobody proposed to merge Wola with Ursus, the proposed articles on Śródmieście and Western Centre are far from empty) my guess is you have not yet. Looking forward to discussing this more. PrinceGloria (talk) 11:21, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

PS. I just realized you might have not realized we are attempting to reorganize the "districts" section of the guide as well, as proposed below. This is why the clumsy new map was created by me, and Alexander was kind enough to offer to make a better one in due course.

Yes, I meant Mokotow, not Warsaw. Also, I didn't mean Ursus, but Zoliborz. At any rate, I would consider it entirely plausible moving Zoliborz into Northern Warsaw, if anyone is really concerned that it could be come too unwieldy. To be honest, I can't really think of any reason aside from the Citadel and hanging out around plac Wilsona that anyone actually goes to Zoliborz. But, if you have a look at my preliminary argument for Warsaw/Centrum (still working on it and will need to pick it up later tonight since I have to take the kid somewhere), then it becomes clear creating a new Warsaw/Western Centre isn't the best idea. As I've discovered today in the Wola district is that many of the places have closed, so the new article would be even smaller. Wola and Ochota can be easily assimilated with Srodmiescie into Warsaw/Centrum, which maintains the ambiguity of Wola's borders, as well as Ochota's (for the traveler, it's not clear where al. Jerozolimskie, Jana Pawla, or ul. Chalubinskiego turns into Wola, Srodmiescie, or Ochota), and this keeps its sane for the average traveler. This is even more true since my Polish roommates when I first moved here didn't know our address (Grzybowska) was actually Wola until I told them. And, most travelers will never reach the far-flong areas of Wola, so even though Wola may be large, we can tailor the guide to meet only the average travelers needs (Westin, Uprising Museum, Hilton Hotel, Wola Park) and the same holds true for Ochota. Moreover, because of the subway stop, most foreigners and most Poles that I know would refer to the pl. Delfiad, Novotel, Zlote Tarasy, Polonia Hotel area as "Centrum." Thus, the article should be named that because of the generic applicability of the term and apply to the entire "center" of Warsaw, as defined by the district section (Ochota, Wola, and Srodmiescie - maybe move Zoliborz to the northern part).

Finally, we need to wholesale delete listings in Srodmiescie (most are just an name and address with no information about whether its actually a decent place to go to or eat at) and just more carefully curate the guide in the future. Thus, in my proposed Warsaw/Centrum I'm not going to include a huge list of galleries or restaurants with just the name and address since it'll help the traveler weed out what appears to be spam.

So, when it boils down to it, my main opposition is to "Western Centre" and "Old Town and New Town," unless the latter one is turned into an itinerary, but by the looks of it, it's meant to be a district guide. I do like the Praga idea and the idea about moving Mokotow to the south. -- Sapphire (talk) 12:27, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Just a short comment: I see no reason in creating the Centrum article that will immediately split into Srodmiescie, Old Town, and other districts. We should keep one level of hierarchy as long as possible. Otherwise, things become confusing for readers and editors alike. A separate article about the Old and New Towns is perfectly fine with me, because this district is well-defined and very important for travelers. In contrast, merging the Old and New Towns into the rest of Srodmiescie will result in a long, incomprehensible article with tens of listings.

Finally, I am hugely dismayed with a sort of edit war that happened here today... --Alexander (talk) 14:50, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I do not think we are in an edit war, but we certainly are using too much of "me", "mine", "I", "you", "yours", when it should be "we" and "our".

Now my comments as to the two contentious points:

• Old and New Town

1. 1. all that Alex said
   2. it is a district tourists actually visit, focus on and actively look for information on
   3. shape and size of the district does not lend it to being described in an itinerary, it would also be hard to include e.g. "Eat" listings in an itinerary.
   4. another point is to prevent bloating of the Śródmieście article, which will forever have the most listings as it contains the most POIs; at this moment it contains less than half of what is in fact in the district, much of it only listed in a stubby way, and is already quite expansive

• Western Centre

1. 1. POIs are similarly sparsely spread over Wola, Żoliborz and Ochota - less densely than in Śródmieście, more densely than in other articles, with similar density as in Praga
   2. BTW, actually POIs in Wola are spread over more than a half of its territory
   3. Apart from South, all other articles are very short ones basically saying "don't go there". Ochota and Żoliborz would be similar unless merged with Wola, and Wola itself would not be a very long article
   4. My goal is to have similarly long, POI-packed articles on Śródmieście, Old and New Town, Praga and Western Centre, a short but informative one on the South, and articles on the West, East and North as short as they are, as there isn't much to add.
   5. Żoliborz could be merged with Bielany, but there is next to nothing to see in Bielany, so that would make allocating other districts to articles harder, and the "Żoliborz + Bielany" article would still be quite short and lacking in POIs. Capitalizing on its closeness to the centre and being equally easy to reach as Wola or Ochota, we can better suggest visiting it than by having it in a separate article, or with Bielany.
   6. While this was my concern originally, I came to the conclusion that the only way instance that the hardly discernible border district between Śródmieście and Wola be traversed by a large group of tourists (and thus their itinerary broken in half and them having to navigate and plan using both articles) would be if they would be trying to explore the Jewish places of remembrance, which in turn actually can quite easily be covered by an itinerary.

With Western Centre, I would love to be proven wrong and see how Wola, Ochota and Żoliborz are both so full of legitimate listings they should all be given separate articles. With the Old and New Town, I am quite convinced the argument stands that the amount of listings in Śródmieście would be best cut down this way.

I guess it may also be better to file an RfC or even call for more voices at the Pub should we find ourselves unable to reach a consensus. PrinceGloria (talk) 19:10, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Everyone does realize that I am opposed to Western Center, but not to merging the guides, right? I have created, in case you haven't seen, Warsaw/Centrum and I have almost completely merged all of the meaningful entries in Zoliborz, Ochota, Wola, and Srodmiescie together, so it's not impossible to merge these articles into a more coherent article that respects the ambiguity of the district borders without disrupting the travelers' ability to get the information they need from one guide. Keep Warsaw/Praga the way it is. Both of the Praga districts also have a rather ambiguous border (Stadion Narodowy), so that is fine to merge those the way they are.

I think the best way to get rid of the amount of stub listings in Srodmiescie is to simply remove the places that we wouldn't recommend (actually, it's a policy). The best way to do this is to think about where you would send your friends or family when they're in Warsaw. Would I recommend every café on Nowy Swiat to them? No, I certainly would not. I would find the one with the best coffee and tell them to go there. Should we list every single gallery in the area without explaining the pros and cons of each location? Absolutely not. We should only be providing listings that benefit the user and steer them in the right direction, listing every single possible café, restaurant, or gallery does not help the average traveler.

And, for that reason I oppose the Old Town and New Town guide. I think the value of a guide for these two neighborhoods is being exaggerated. Where in the Old Town do most tourists go? Down a single street that begins at the Royal Castle, passes a few churches, and past the Old Town Square to the Barbakan. If they decide to go further on down to the New Town, the will likely only stay on Freta until they get the New Town Square and zigzag around the churches. Very few tourists actually spend time wandering around the other streets in the Old Town--I was there Saturday with the family and we were the only people going down Piekarska (and also Dluga) since we know the fastest ways to get around and there is nothing of value to the traveler on that street, like on many of the streets in these areas. All in all, if you're only walking through the neighborhoods, it would take 5-10 minutes to view the facades of every major attraction in the Old Town. Will these areas really have enough content to justify separating them, in my opinion, no. It would be a disservice to create a new guide for a relatively small area of Warsaw and list every imagine restaurant or bar in the Old Town, especially as most people would go, see, and return to Krakowskie Przedmiescie or Nowy Swiat to eat or drink.

I remain unconvinced that the proposed Western Center would benefit the traveler. Why are we going to force a tourist staying at the Marriott (Srodmiescie) to print or check a second guide to get a cup of coffee at the Rue de Paris on the other side of Chalubinskiego or walk five minutes and check out the Warsaw Waterworks (both of which are in Ochota)? Why are we going to force the traveler at the Westin Hotel (Wola) to check the Srodmiescie guide for a restaurant that is also literally across the street (Srodmiescie). Or send a Wikivoyage user staying at the Mercure (in Srodmiescie) to the Wola guide to find TGI Fridays (Wola)? I could find many more examples like this and as a user of Wikivoyage when I travel, I would not want to be placed in the position when I traveled. -- Sapphire (talk) 17:21, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh gosh, this might not be an edit war, but it sure looks like a merge war. "My merge is better than your merge".

To me, Warsaw/Centrum already looks rife for break-up, and we have not even remotely covered the area. Perhaps the hotels are reasonably covered, and this is the section that shows the most signs of rifening for break-up as it is full to the brim with listings. BTW, the policy says "avoid negative reviews" not "only list your absolutely fave places". There are perhaps a handful of places in Warsaw I would find a realluy hard time recommending, I am very fine with most cafes in Nowy Świat and pretty much every establishment in Chmielna. I see absolutely no reason not to list them.

Moreover, as regards the "Do" and "See" section, we have only started to scratch the surface. I do admit I have not contributed much because I wanted to have the structure in place first. Perhaps we really need to make a huge hodgepodge of everything first to really see where it is headed. That said, just imagine a map of Warsaw/Centrum with all the POIs marked and tell me whether it would be legible.

As concerns Old and New Town - if you do not believe me that every building merits a listing if not a few, let me take you on a tour whenever you are in Warsaw and have a few days off. I am not a huge fan of the Old and New Town, but I know people who are, and it was the tourists that showed me how interesting it can be to them. I always told people not to waste their time on it only to be proven very wrong. In short - let us not assume our tastes are universal and that people will act just as we do. We can be subjective in our reviews (yet not overly negative), but we should not be subjective in selecting information. Let the travellers acquaint themselves with the breadth of information available and decide themselves.

BTW, we can move listings between districts. It is done sone e.g. with Paris, where Gare du Montparnasse and Tour Montparnasse are featured in the article on the 14th, while they are actually right across the border in the 15th, because the Montparnasse quarter as such is described there and it would make little sense to break the continuum. I could see ourselves agreeing to have all of the Chałubińskiego/Jana Pawła in the Śródmieście article. There will always be something that is "quite close", but I do not think Filtry or anything else (except for the aforementioned) in Ochota or Wola is so close that we cannot split the articles.

Kindest, PrinceGloria (talk) 18:50, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

(ec) Andrew, thank you for your comments. I have seen lots of tourists strolling along the streets of the Old Town on a very cold and snowy evening in March this year. I understand that the Old Town may not be your cup of tea, but I don't think that we should rely on our own tastes only. Personally, I was charmed by the Old Town and spent several hours walking there, even though I visited Warsaw only briefly. Same applies to the listings. You recommend something, I recommend something different, and we get lots of different places listed. Nowy Swiat features an amazing variety of cafes and restaurants that should not conceal similarly nice places in the Old/New Town.

Your current version of the Centrum article is not too long indeed, but its content is meager. When I planned my trip to Warsaw this year, I opened Wikivoyage and... closed it, because it was mostly useless. There is no good coverage yet. Then, of course, we have to decide whether we start from creating more district articles, or wait until existing articles explode. --Alexander (talk) 18:57, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Jestem zawsze w Warszawie. Mieszkam w Pradze Południe. I never said that I that I don't like the Old Town or New Town and I never said that I don't find the Old Town interesting. Quite the contrary, but it still does not justify a separate article for what amounts to a small part of Warsaw. No, I certainly don't think every building deserves a listing -- Wikivoyage is not Wikipedia, so we don't need to give the building history of every single possible building that might look lovely.

Even if we listed close-to-the border attractions in other district guides, then it would still weaken the case for the second guide (i.e. Western Centre), because the information would have already been included in the Srodmiescie guide.

As for the map argument, I would say that its only reasonable to place the best known POI on a map. I've gone through the Srodmiescie guide and found a number of cafes or bars closed. Its a natural element of the economy. Moreover, as was the case with Cincinnati, Peter made a couple of maps for the city even without it being broken up into districts and those maps were included. -- Sapphire (talk) 19:34, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Alexander, I didn't have time to address your comments earlier. I want to make it clear that I did not say we shouldn't list any restaurants in the Old Town, but only those that we would recommend to our friends. For that reason, we shouldn't have a guide to the Old Town and New Town and try to list every single restaurant or cafe when we can have one guide that gives a good, concise listing of good places to go. I would ask that we remember our non goals (see number 7). Our guides do not need to list every single restaurant, bar, or cafe in the area; our policies frown upon that. -- Sapphire (talk) 21:28, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh gosh, I have the feeling that we are not moving forward a single bit, but simply repeating the same things over and over again. This is not Wikipedia, but I am assuming good faith and believe you genuinely did not understand our concerns, Sapphire, rather than ignored them. I will rephrase them:

• Restaurants, cafes and such

1. You would recommend restaurants X, Y and Z and believe they are the only ones worth mentioning and thus assume you have found the definite, finite number of listings in the area.
2. Surprise, surprise, I would recommend restaurants W, V and U - and it is not because I do not like X, Y and Z, I simply know a different set out of the many restaurants in the area.
3. Moreover, other users are bound to recommend yet another places. There is absolutely no rule saying that only some restaurants are universally liked and deemed recommendable. Otherwise, there wouldn't be that many of them! I, for one, think that Mexicana in Podwale is a filthy, pretentious place with questionable hygiene, awful service and cuisine and laughable Margheritas, but I have friends who just love going there.
4. In short, we are meant to be subjective here, but the beauty of a wiki is that Wikivoyage becomes a sum of all our subjectiveness, not just "Sapphire's guide to his favourite places in Warsaw".
5. I believe there are over 100 restaurants, cafe, bars and such in the Old and New Town alone. Even if only 20 or 30 get a mention from one editor or another, it is a lot. And this guess is just as good as guessing a half of them (50 or more) will get a mention. Now try to imagine all those + the ones in Śródmieście (which in total holds a few hundred), Wola, Ochota and Żoliborz and tell me this will work in one article.

• But it's not about restaurants

1. To me, restaurants are of secondary relevance. First and foremost, we should focus on the "see" and "do sections.
2. And, discovering Warsaw anew pretty much every week, I find that there is really a myriad things to discuss - historic buildings, unique streets, museums, galleries and other attractions. And some merit a quire expansive discussion due to their uniqueness, complexity and particular importance.
3. Moreover, I strongly feel we are in no position to decide ourselves that this or that is unimportant and not worth mentioning. To some tourists, it won't, to others, it will. Let them acquaint themselves with the breadth of the options and choose themselves.
4. From what we already said I can guess we will be at odds as to which attractions are really worth mentioning, but I guess the way the policies and guidelines are to be applied is to include the sum of our preferences, rather than only the things we agree upon. I did not see people here deleting listings or removing mentions because the places are "stupid" or "uninteresting" to them.

• Where it doesn't work id districtification

1. That is because we can't districtify both this way and another. We have to agree on one version.
2. There, we have to use logical, objective arguments, as subjectivity will lead us nowhere
3. We have agreed here that the number of listings and generally things to describe in the Old and New Town is potentially so big that we shall better start a new article straight away because it is bound to baloon and further extracting it from Śródmieście will soon become necessary and be a pain.
4. Moreover, with the exception of yourself, we seem to agree that Śródmieście is so full of stuff to describe even without the Old and New Towns that it would not be advisable to add any other district to it, because it would grow unwieldy and rife to break-up soon.
5. You can see this in your own Warsaw/Centrum article - feel free to post and RfC, and I am quite convinced that you would be advised by a few users to start breaking it up even as it is. And, as mentioned, it contains only a fraction of what could me mentioned there. I am tempted to start adding listings (See and Do mostly, not restaurants) just to prove it to you, but I guess it would be a waste of time and effort we could spend better than bickering.

There seems to be a rare (on a Wiki, and especially on Wikivoyage) compromise here regarding the rationale for districtification here. This should tell you something - perhaps rather than extremely misguided, ignorant about Wikivoyage policies and guidelines and not knowing a thing about Warsaw we may actually have some good rationale for it. Perhaps you can take a step back and think it over how it happened that a bunch of people agreed on something about Warsaw when you weren't looking. Perhaps they aren't stupid ignorants, but there might be some merit in it, even if it goes across how the article looked like when you last left it? PrinceGloria (talk) 05:10, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

PS. Since you're in Warsaw, it would only make sense to meet. But I guess that would be better discussed in our Talk pages. Looking forward to meeting you soon!

My arguments are not based on subjectivity, but on Wikivoyage policies and considering the that the traveler comes first. I don't know where this "'Sapphire's guide to his favourite places in Warsaw'" came from. Did I ever claim that this guide was solely my own? No. The idea of adding a bunch of listings to prove someone wrong is non-constructive.

Subjectivity is the foundation of Wikivoyage guides and the beauty of this wiki is that if Person A adds a restaurant or a do listing and Person B comes along a few weeks later and used this guide and had the worst time ever at that place, he/she can delete it. I never said that we have to argue over which listings go in somewhere, but where would you recommend your friends and policy says that. If using the logic of that there could be too many sites to see in one area, are we then going to need to further subdivide Srodmiescie? There are many times more museums, shops, restaurants, interesting buildings, bars, cafes, hotels, etc. in the area from pl. Delfiad to al. Solidarnosci (and west of Marszalkowska) than there are in Old Town or New Town, are we going to create a separate district for that and have everything else be covered by the Srodmiescie guide?

Why can't we try my Centrum idea? If by all means that it appears not to have worked then we can revisit the option of siphoning off Wola, Ochota, and Zoliborz, but I really do think the idea would disadvantage the traveler (read: not me). Duplicating entries in both district guides would be moot and confusing to the traveler. Why do you have to have an Old Town and New Town district guide? Why can't we have an Old and New Town itinerary? The idea behind the district guides is to provide more detail than what should be provided in a huge city guide, but not to list every imagine place. I think there can be a workaround, though -- an itinerary. An itinerary would help guide travelers how to spend their time in the Old and New Towns with more detail than a district guide. Consider, for example, a professor flying in from New York to give a lecture at UW. If he's staying at the Marriott, he needs to know about the things in Centrum and on Krakowskie Przedmiescie (near UW, before the Old Town begins), but maybe during a 30-minute conference break he wants to go to the Old Town and look around? He shouldn't be forced to print out another district guide for something that is two minutes away by bus and be bombarded with the 100+ clubs, bars, restaurants, churches, and every building that was thrown out. He should be able to take one guide with him and know that he can find things near Krakowskie Przedmiescie and Old Town. If he postpones his flight and wants to spend more time in the Old Town, then an itinerary would be perfect for him since there is no policy that says we can't add things to an itinerary that aren't included in district or city guide. I think this is a reasonable approach rather than creating two additional empty guides and allows for greater reflection at a later point in time. -- Sapphire (talk) 17:32, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

You're already tried Warsaw/Centrum and two users looked at it and told you it doesn't work. What more do you need? Do you want us to wait because perhaps somehow someday somebody will say it is a good idea? If you believe one user can delete other user's listings, then why wouldn't you accept two users telling you that this idea doesn't work?

BTW, I am not buying your interpretation of subjectivity re:listings. I'll ask at the pub in due course what the rest of the folks think. If this is how Wikivoyage works, I'm outta here, as we're in for endless edit warring.

You argument about the Professor doesn't even make sense to me. I am too tired now to even analyze it in writing, perhaps others can make sense of it PrinceGloria (talk) 18:16, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

PrinceGloria, I understand you are annoyed by this discussion, but personal attacks will not help the situation. I am totally on your side, but I think that the only way of convincing Sapphire would be to fill Centrum, Srodmiescie or whatever "merged" article to the brim, so that the relevance of smaller districts becomes obvious. The discussion itself does not bring us anywhere. --Alexander (talk) 19:27, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I did not mean to attack anybody, and if what I have written amounts to a personal attack then:

1. My sincere apologies
2. I guess I need a wikibreak. I will try to restrain myself from editing for some time.

Kindest, PrinceGloria (talk) 20:22, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

The professor thing was simply an example that was trying to illustrate why a traveler would be disadvantaged by having to look at and/or print out two-three different guides for neighborhoods that are a part of the same area. For you and me, we know the differences between the districts and sub-districts, but the traveler does not and we need to cater to them.

I hope that the question that you raised in the Travellers' Pub was answered by what I wrote on this talk page and Ryan's (Whr2) reply in the Travellers' Pub (i.e. that we shouldn't be bombarding the guides with listings). I promise you that I'm not going to make up policies; these have been policies since the early days of the WV project.

I have been trying to work with the proposal. I fully believe in the idea of merging the remaining districts and areas of Warsaw, but I feel strongly that 99.9% of all travelers don't need a separate district guide to the Old Town and New Town since these are neighborhoods in Srodmiescie, let alone Wola and Ochota since, for the traveler, the borders are ambiguous. As I stated before, if we worked on an Old Town and New Town itinerary, that would be a different case. We don't need a New Town/Old Town district guide, but we do need an Old Town/New Town itinerary. In case you haven't seen it, there is one, but it needs serious work. Like I said earlier, we don't need to create a Yellow Pages out of the Centrum/Center guide--we can and should present the most important sites there and add more detail to the itinerary that I linked to.

Do you think we can try to improve this itinerary as a compromise for the time being? I think we should rename it and include the New Town, but I'll raise that on the itinerary's talk page at tomorrow or Sunday.

Actually, there have been relatively very few edit wars in the Wikivoyage project's near ten-year history (I came along to the website roughly a year after it started) and those that have occurred are mostly due to spammers and extremely bored teenagers. So, I don't think you need or should leave WV simply because WV policies permit anyone to edit the wiki in a way that they think that it might improve the guide. And, where lets say some user coms along and deletes the National Museum from the guide because they think it's overpriced, sucks, or whatever, that's when we come along and use the Be fair policy since it's such an important sight and we need to keep it and should say that it is an important website, has extreme national value, but may be expensive. This too is just an example, so please don't look too deeply into it.

All of this said, I will be touring the Old Town and New Town tomorrow afternoon to see how we could improve the itinerary. -- Sapphire (talk) 00:23, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

OK, I took a while to take a deeper breath and try to have at least some of my emotions cool down, but I see that it seems there is only you and me really interested in this article. This is rather sad, both in terms of the amount of interest and the fact that we both seem unable to compromise each other's positions in order to find common ground.

For example, what I am reading in what was said at the Pub is that we should generally NOT delete listings, so every guide for an area that has many POIs is bound to be filled with POIs even if we start out by listing only our favourite places or those we find the most recommendable. So, an area comprising of four of the most popular districts in Warsaw for all kinds of POIs, which is what I believe Warsaw/Centrum is, is bound to have its guide balloon. And, as both myself and at least one other user already said above, the guide is ripe for districtification as it stands.

It seems that for you this argument (number of listings) seems secondary. I do not understand if you are implying that it is not important (i.e. a guide will be OK with that many listings), or that somehow the number of listings will be kept below the (arbitrary) threshold even despite the sheer number of POIs, by way of deleting some. It would be brilliant if we could understand better how you envisage this to evolve.

Old and New Town

As regards Walking around the Old Town in Warsaw, the way it is, it is not an itinerary. It is a district guide with its attractions listed.

I cannot see this area being described well as an itinerary, because of, as I mentioned, the size and shape of it. There is no single, undisputable route one should take to the attractions of it. You seem to have your favourite one, but I do not think it is the only possible one. I would love for you to present it, but I guess I will be pointing out "you missed this, you missed that", and you will stand by saying how those are unworthy and unimportant, and we shall not be moving forward. Alternatively, we will end up with an "itinerary" that goes back and forth and around through almost every street in the area, which I do not think would be very useful.

Moreover, I believe a district guide gives more flexibility to visitors, who will want to adjust their plans to the amount of time they have for it, time of day and year, as well as their individual interests. Some people may find the Historic Museum very interesting and indispensable to include in their visit, while others will skip it, but we need to include it. Same goes for the escarpment and fountain show - if somebody is in the Old Town on a weekend evening, I would advise them to go and see it, but to those short of time and visting on a weekday, they might just as well skip it. Arkady Kubickiego are very much worth taking the escalator down there and exploring, but quite many people would probably decide to skip those if they are in a hurry or have little interest in what's there. People into history, especially history of Poland, will probably want to walk along Podwale, see the city walls, the Little Soldier and Kilinski, while others will be just as happy to skip those.

This is a small area, and if we provide a district map, I believe we can entrust the travellers to find their bearings themselves or just wander around, our guide in hand, and explore in no particular order. And yes, I stand by my belief that, however irrelevant and uninteresting the Old and New Town is to me, and I guess you as well, to many visitors it is an important part of Warsaw and prominently included in their travel plans, and they really could use a separate guide to that.

Warsaw Centre

I am not willing to accept Warsaw/Centrum not only due to entrenched emotional opposition and emotional weight attached to it, which might be affecting me, but also due to the sheer reason that I believe this area to be far too big and full of attractions to be covered in a single, useful article. This would defy the whole idea of districtification to me.

In order to move forward, let me make an alternative proposal just to seek out options for finding common ground. What I believe might be reasonable is to leave Wola in its own article, and deal with Ochota and Żoliborz separately. I am not really sure where to put Żoliborz and Ochota though. I do not think either district will either fill an article as nicely as Pragas (combined), Ursynów, Wilanów and Mokotów (combined) or Śródmieście (obviously) would.

I could see Ochota being added to Wola, which is most natural geographically, but it doesn't seem to be making much difference to having it together with Żoliborz as well. Ochota could go with Włochy and Ursus as Warsaw/Southwest or Warsaw/Close to the Chopin Airport and would make sense only in terms of some of the hotels that are still marketed as "airport" but falling into Ochota rather than Żoliborz to be described together with typically "airport" hotels". That would still exclude "airport" hotels that are in Ursynów, as I think we all agree it is better not to touch official district boundaries or else we shall fall into a stinking, and traveller-confusing, mess.

Żoliborz could only work with Bielany in my eyes. Including anything on the right bank with this would be creating a very confusing and forced entity. But then, if we went for "Southwest" as outlined above, it would leave "Bemowo" nowhere, so I guess it could go with Żoliborz and Bielany into Warsaw/Northwest (a pretty convulted entity in my eyes), not changing much, as there is really next to nothing of tourist interest in Bemowo, unless I am seriously underestimating it. Since the North, as discussed before, would be broken up, I would then propose for the outlying districts of the right bank to be bundled together as Warsaw/Far East or something.

---

I believe it would be better to split this discussion into two separate ones - one for the separate Old and New Town article, and another for districtification in general, i.e. how to split the districts other than Śródmieście and the both Pragas, which seem uncontroversial, into articles that would make sense from a traveller's point of view. It would be good to summarize the pros and cons of each and then file a broader RfC, with the other users being able to get a quick overview without reading all the above, which I believe is mostly ourselves venting. For now, I guess I exhausted my deep breath, so let me finish off here and take another one :) PrinceGloria (talk) 05:44, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly that Walking around the Old Town in Warsaw is not a proper itinerary, because it lacks both well-defined route and well-defined topic. It is merely a part of the city, which should be considered as a district. --Alexander (talk) 08:41, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Atsirlin, Srodmiescie is a mere 3 percent of Warsaw. The Old and New Towns are a fraction of that. That doesn't constitute a district, it constitutes a neighborhood that could justify an itinerary for the extremely lazy tourist who wants to wander around, but not for the rest of travelers to Warsaw. May I ask where you stayed in Warsaw when you visited and which guide you used (I know it wasn't WV since you said so earlier)?

There is a pretty standard route to the Old Town and New Town. Examples: One and Two. Most tours go down down the main roads that pass by the churches on the way to the Old Town Square through the Barbikan and down Freta and to the New Town Square. If someone is starting the itinerary at the Castle, common sense says they'll need to end it there again and we can direct them through more side streets. Actually, that's a better idea than ending the itinerary at pl. Bankowy given that after that much time wandering around the person following the itinerary might be hungry and there are relatively few restaurants in that area versus what is on Krakowskie Przedmiescie and Nowy Swiat.

I am not the only one to have recently pointed out that we do not list every single POI in a guide. Hence, just because there may be some really awesome, small museum in the bowels of Wola doesn't mean we need to actually include it because it's probably a hassle for the average traveler to get there. -- Sapphire (talk) 20:30, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Andrew, I used InYourPocket guide, which I liked a lot, plus a dated edition of LP, plus common sense and intuition. Unfortunately, I did not have enough time to explore the whole city. As I lack any good knowledge of Warsaw, I don't want to make strong statements here. But I thought I know the policy saying that "An itinerary article should be a guide for traveling along a specific, recognized route and not merely a suggested sightseeing schedule." Old Town in Warsaw (like any old town) is a place for wandering. Its very nature excludes any single, predefined route, no matter what tour guides do.

The size of any district may not be proportional to its importance from the traveler's perspective. I am now working on the Tallinn article in Russian Wikivoyage. I have no doubts that the Old Town of Tallinn merits its own article, but I know Tallinn well, while Warsaw only briefly. However, if I map this debate back onto my beloved Tallinn, I do plan to write about some hidden museum in Wola, because standard travel guides will never write about it.

I hope that I explained my preferences and my reasoning. Now I would like to switch to other tasks. I still intend to draw a map after the districts are settled. --Alexander (talk) 20:58, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

OK now, I feel this is getting slightly surreal, so either it is or I am not getting something.... The two guides to Old Town you linked to propose DIFFERENT routes through Old Town - for one, In Your Pocket tells you to go to see Kiliński, the Little Soldier and down Kamienne Schodki, while skipping most of the New Town altogether, while the other one misses the aforementioned POIs in the Old Town while telling people to go farther into the New Town and then back through Miodowa, which I find a bit unorthodox and surely not "standard route". At any rate, they are DIFFERENT. If this is to prove the point that there is a "standard route", it either doesn't, or I missed the point.

I believe, however, I didn't and as Alexander said, the Old Town is a place for wandering. Many do tend start somewhere near the Royal Castle and Sigismund's Column, and many people will also finish there as well for transit reasons, and you would rather not miss the Old Town Market Square, but there is no absolutely no set route, neither a rule that says you have to eat before or after and can't do your eating WHILE visiting the Old Town. It is like saying Paris would be better described by an itinerary because most people do want to see the Louvre and the Eiffel Tower, they do something in between or before or after sometimes, but who cares. Or, again, I might have missed the point and am really daft and blinded by my negative emotions.

Secondly, thanks to pointing to a discussion I had with Globe-trotter, but this was about a country-level not city-level article and there were no POIs involved? We discussed a list of foodstuffs and not whether we should include them all or not but rather whether to do it in list or prose form, the fact whether to include all or not is secondary. AT ANY RATE, this was not a discussion about POIs, museums, hotels, galleries, restaurants, but about typical (or atypical) Dutch dishes. I find it remotely relevant only because 1) it involved other user disagreeing (slightly) with me and 2) it involved a list. But it doesn't seem to prove the point you are trying to make.

Or did I miss the point again and you are referring to something else Globe-trotter said?

I believe this is dragging out for too long and not really leading anywhere. I really do not know what to do now, I feel like a blind man arguing with a deaf one... I hope this is only because I am too daft or blinded to understand what you're saying. PrinceGloria (talk) 14:54, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Those links both more or less take people from the castle, through the market, and into the New Town down Freta. They offer some side routes, but it more or less (like everyone who goes to the Old Town) takes them straight through the Old Town down Swietojanska and Freta (a rather straight shot).

I was only referring to the link GT pointed out on that talk page. The policy applies not only at the country level. -- 89.76.54.241 00:04, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Again, to say that "there is a fixed route" only because guides start at the Castle Square and recommend visiting the New Town Market by going down Freta is a huge overstatement. Again, this is as if somebody would say there is a fixed route for visiting Berlin because most guides recommend a stroll down the Ku'damm. And what about people staying at Le Regina or ibis Stare Miasto, for whom it would be more logical to do it backwards? Of course we can tell them to do the itinerary backwards, but why ever push an itinerary on people, when there are so many, as you called them, divertions possible?

The policy Globe-trotter pointed towards is Wikivoyage:Avoid long lists, not Wikivoyage:Don't list all POIs. The former is moderately irrelevant - it says lists should be broken up, turned into prose or otherwise long ones avoided, not less items should be mentioned. It doesn't say "don't mention all of the attractions in the area or you'll end up with a long list". And the basic way Wikivoyage tells you to handle areas where the number of POIs is starting to become unmanageable is to break it down to districts. Which is what we're suggesting with the Old and New Town in order to spare the Śródmieście article from bloating and even longer lists.

Do sign in, makes it easier to know who you are rather than guess.

Have a great weekend, PrinceGloria (talk) 04:55, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I've posted a RfC. -- Sapphire (talk) 12:05, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Bump. It would be appreciated if someone else could comment on this issue. -- Sapphire (talk) 11:49, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

It's likely that everyone on the site who knows enough about Warsaw to comment is already here. Can you summarize the issues? Are there any questions of policy or about the site's best practices that I might answer, or do the points of contention require knowledge of Warsaw to evaluate? LtPowers (talk) 15:30, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I will try to summarize points for both discussions (there is the issue of separating the Old and New Towns from Śródmieście as a district, and of merging, or not, of Wola, Ochota and Żoliborz with Śródmieście, or merging them together as a single district with Śródmieście remaining separate). It will take me some time and I want to be done with Germany here. I hope you can all wait until then :)

Just to make sure - this basically DOES require knowledge of Warsaw, or at least the issues at hand, so without a proper introduction to both issues it is hard to chip in with anything sensible or constructive. This is why we aren't moving forward. I think the cooldown period was good to tone down the emotions here, at least it was for me :) PrinceGloria (talk) 15:53, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi all, I was moving and offline for a few weeks as a result. Thus, I couldn't follow up with your comments. I hope that I will be able to do so tomorrow evening. -- Sapphire (talk) 12:17, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Warsaw Uprising..

The understand section already defines Warsaw in terms of being rebuilt. Is this section really necessary? I have to say that although it is obviously an important part of the history, the negativity I feel after reading the section makes me less likely to visit as a traveler. --(WT-en) Inas 18:37, 24 November 2008 (EST)

where is the Jewish quarter information?

looks like it's been deleted. Any way to dig through the archives and reinstate? —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 68.173.47.176 (talk • contribs)

You can go to the article, click 'history', click a date at which time the information was there, and paste the information into the article again, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 08:34, 21 December 2010 (EST)

And please don't forget to check district articles first. What you might be looking for may be here: Warsaw/Śródmieście. – (WT-en) Vidimian 10:12, 21 December 2010 (EST)

Outdated prices

While I appreciate the thought behind this edit, telling our readers that our guide is "outdated" seems like a really Bad Idea. Why not just update the prices to match what's current? (WT-en) LtPowers 10:12, 13 September 2011 (EDT)

Districtifying - go?

Please head over to User:PrinceGloria/Warsaw/Districts to see my proposition, based on the discussion above. The links in this article link to either the main namespace, if I propose to lave an article as it is or if I created a new one there, or to my userspace if I created a new/modified one there. Sorry for the mess.

I would like to expedite this as there seems to be a growing confusion as to what's going on. If there is no opposition, I shall plunge forward, but I'd rather let you guys see this before I go. Thanks for letting me know what you think. PrinceGloria (talk) 07:53, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

PS. Some of the articles are in a majorly poor condition, but then this is how they are now. I just want to redistrictify and make it easier to work on them moving forward.

Awesome! Jjtkk (talk) 07:57, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I think, it's great. Please, go ahead and introduce the new districts. I remember my promise about the map and, unless someone else is doing that already, I should make an effort and draw it. --Alexander (talk) 09:39, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Please don't. I am proposing that it be deleted, so what's the point? -- Sapphire (talk) 10:54, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

The point is that apart from yourself, the rest of us here reached a consensus, you didn't even bother to discuss or were not active on Wikivoyage at that point, and now you are coming round to have "that" deleted without contributing much. Do fill in the articles with superb content and then any redistrictifying becomes irrelevant. PrinceGloria (talk) 11:07, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

You're ignoring my very valid arguments that it will not be a waste of time and you could view my proposal above. -- Sapphire (talk) 11:10, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

So what's the situation now? I still think Warsaw needs redistrification. Jjtkk (talk) 21:43, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

It does, but I do need to have heaploads of available time to conduct this discussion in a reasonable manner, and hence I had not such time, I simply left it for later. I guess User:Sapphire did as well, so we did not go anywhere farther. I guess what we may do is try to take it step-by-step. I would begin by putting the issue of splitting Old and New Town into a separate article for more public discussion first. I can try to do a summary of points for and against raised so far so that everybody could make their own mind and make it known, as I guess both me and Sapphire remain pretty steadfast in our opinions. PrinceGloria (talk) 21:58, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

PS. At any rate, I will further develop the Warsaw/Old and New Town article to let everybody see how it might look like if we decide to keep it officially.

OK. PrinceGloria, please proceed with developing it, but can we please put into a sandbox (e.g. move it to User:PrinceGloria/Warsaw/Old and New Town) before making it live? It'll be better to see it this way without causing clashes. -- Sapphire (talk) 23:03, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Districts again

Proposed districts split - which in practice works for now, but parallel districts still exist as separate guides

Dear All, seems like Sapphire is away and he might not participate in the discussion started above for some time, and we are still in a mess regarding districts. Seeing the latest edits I believe the "larger" districts (e.g. Warsaw/Western Centre) are more popular, so can we agree on the split as in the map attached and do some housekeeping so that we do not end up with content being all over the place?

Thanks for chipping in, --PrinceGloria (talk) 20:08, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, yes, let's do this already! :D Jjtkk (talk) 05:57, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Anybody else cares to chip in? PrinceGloria (talk) 06:28, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

I propose to go ahead and make a district subdivision that makes sense, as there are currently too many low quality Warsaw district articles around... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:20, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

PrinceGloria, you have my support as well in making this change. ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 18:36, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

OK done. The work's just begun tho - pretty much all of the articles need brushing up, some could use better banners, and of course we need a map. User:Ypsilon might perhaps help? PrinceGloria (talk) 21:17, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello! I see ויקיג'אנקי already made a map, thanks for that. :) ϒpsilon (talk) 17:36, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

new map

Yea, I fixed up a new version of the old map that now has a more standard Wikivoyage look (I am sure someone would be able to do a better job in the future). In retrospect, the only thing I don't feel completely comfortable with in the new re-districtification + map is that although the Old Town (Stare Miasto) and New Town (Nowe Miasto) are administratively within the district of Śródmieście, it now appears according to the new district section+new map that they are a separate district. Any suggestion to how we could solve that issue? Do you think it necessary to have these two articles separate ? Maybe the best solution would be to merge the Old and New Town article into the Śródmieście article? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 18:18, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I think my last change solved that issue. ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 18:58, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

This is precisely against what I envisaged if you'd read the above discussion. We are not trying to recreate the administrative divisions of Warsaw here - where Old and New Town belong administratively is irrelevant. The thing is that they are so full of POIs and quite distinct that carving them out of Śródmieście only makes sense. Burying them down in the hierarchy is only going to make it unnecessarily complicated. They should stay at the same level as other districts. PrinceGloria (talk) 19:33, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree with User:PrinceGloria - Administrative divisions are - for the most part - utterly irrelevant when there are better divisions for our purposes or immediately visible to visitors... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:05, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

As a result of PrinceGloria's revet to my last edit, it now appears that we have two different locations covered, although Old and New Town is within Śródmieście. This seems like a clear mistake to me. As far as I understand, the solution I suggested is the typical acceptable solution applied on Wikivoyage in instances like these. What do everyone else think would be best to do? Users whom have participated in this discussion so far are also more than welcome to share their opinion about this issue as well (Jjtkk, ϒpsilon). ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 20:11, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Nestling districts into districts is absolutely not typical and should be avoided. For the purpose of this guide, Old and New Town are NOT considered a part of Śródmieście. PrinceGloria (talk) 20:20, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Personally I've been to Warsaw only briefly, so I cannot really comment on the district division. Nevertheless, official district divisions are made up with inhabitants' needs in mind rather than visitors' and I have yet to see one city we have divided "100% officially" (also, Warsaw probably just like about any other city has tens of suburbs none of which has much for visitors, and we of course do not give each of those their own articles). I don't see much problem in having the Old and New town carved out as its own part of Śródmieście, especially if there are extremely many POIs. It'd also be sort of weird to have it as a subdivision of Śródmieście, if this would be the only article two levels below the main Warsaw article. It's best to have Old and New town sorted directly under Warsaw, which I believe is what PrinceGloria is trying to say. ϒpsilon (talk) 20:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Different articles about the same place

Swept in from the pub

I noticed we have Warsaw/Praga-Południe and Warsaw/Praga-Północ as well asWarsaw/Praga. Is this a mistake or was this done on purpose? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 08:39, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Maybe the district discussion (if any) on talk:Warsaw may be of interest here? Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:58, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

PrinceGloria knows the city and the articles best, I think. ϒpsilon (talk) 07:57, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

It became a mess when I couldn't agree with User:Sapphire I believe, and then since we weren't heading nowhere towards a consensus, I let it go. It's my home town and I dare say I indeed know it quite well. I guess the user in question stopped dropping in sometime ago, so perhaps we may reach a consensus now - although it does not feel all that right to do stuff behind their back. PrinceGloria (talk) 08:29, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

You could post to her user talk page. If she doesn't reply, I think you're perfectly alright in ignoring her opinion. People who are no longer here can be respected, but I don't think they can block a consensus in their absence. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:28, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Guide status?

The main Warsaw article now has guide status, but there are still a couple of districts that are only outlines. How's that possible? ϒpsilon (talk) 15:47, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Alte Sachen. Feel free to demote. PrinceGloria (talk) 18:00, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Done --ϒpsilon (talk) 18:09, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

The three "problem districts" North, West and East are really a piece of work, what with the "formerly dead links" and the almost total lack of listings in certain fields. Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:18, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Problem districts

Warsaw/East, Warsaw/West, Warsaw/North are still ranked outline and would probably need a lot of work done. How do we fix this? Or should we just draw different boundaries altogether? Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:20, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Following the below map, I think we should merge the South and Eastern districts to make a district, which could be called Warsaw/South or Warsaw/Southeast. The problematic district is the North one, which goes across both sides of the river so it cannot be called "west" or "east" or anything of that nature. But that's a start. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 23:57, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Hotel Europejski

Grand_old_hotels#Central_Europe lists this hotel & it has a wikidata entry, but I cannot find a Warsaw listing to link to. Pashley (talk) 07:46, 24 January 2023 (UTC)