Talk:American cuisine

Other soft drink manufacturers

While the bit about fast food chains having exclusive contracts with certain soft drink manufacturers is true, does that only include the big two? Hobbitschuster (talk) 02:14, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Barbecue

Would someone who knows Texas barbecue styles please complete the section on barbecue? I stopped where I did because my source on Wikipedia was complicated (4 different styles were mentioned, as I recall) and I am no expert. But "Texas has several types of barbecue" was just supposed to be a temporary statement, not the end of the story! Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:52, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

I think it's better if this page is generally generally emphasizes foods you might find throughout the US. Regional US BBQ styles could be a whole page of their own and are generally better handled on the region pages IMHO.Beeelb (talk) 23:47, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

I don't agree at the moment. I think we should detail such styles here, and then if the section gets too big, it can easily be made its own travel topic. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:14, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Notwithstanding my comments below, I tend to think barbecue - being a dish that's popular nationally, but with regional variations - is a special case that merits an exception. Thus, I agree with Ikan Kekek. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:36, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

That's a good point. I suppose it's a similar case to American Mexican food where it's popular nationally but there are distinct regional styles.Beeelb (talk) 14:47, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Better coverage of Texas BBQ styles is still needed. Anyone who's familiar with them, please help. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:24, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Ikan, please see Wikivoyage talk:Destination of the month candidates#American cuisine. I've proposed postpoining this feature for a month, for this and other reasons, during which time I'll be hard at work finally addressing the deficiencies I outlined in the nomination. There's no reason this issue can't be a part of that. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:44, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

I did read that, but I wouldn't know that you were familiar with different Texas BBQ styles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:01, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Legal moonshine

What is it? I thought moonshine was by definition any kind of illegal liquor, which might be everclear, vodka, whisky or something else. But since there's apparently such a thing as legal moonshine, I think it has to be defined. What is it made from, and how high is the percentage of alcohol by volume? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:28, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Regional American cuisines

...should definitely be covered in this article in some form, but definitely not in the way they currently are: via a lengthy yet necessarily arbitrary list of specific regional dishes which really belong in "Eat" section of the respective regional articles, rather than here. Let's think of a more generalized, broad-strokes way to include information about this subject. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:07, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

Should regional dishes that aren't really "regional" anymore be moved to the main section? For example, Cobb salad is Californian, but I put it in the main section because it's popular almost everywhere. Seems like we should follow suit with things like Philly cheesesteak, New York cheesecake, and Buffalo wings that are at best only vaguely associated with where they originated.Beeelb (talk) 17:36, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing about key lime pie.

For regional cuisine that is still truly regional (e.g. fried green tomatoes), maybe this article should have a paragraph or so for each relevant region's cuisine, leaving detailed lists to the region articles. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:00, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

I agree. Maybe just a short paragraph with a couple of highlights of foods like green tomatoes that truly are unusual outside their home region. Things like clam chowder and crab cakes which are popular in widely disparate regions but not necessarily everywhere would be a judgment call I suppose.Beeelb (talk) 18:13, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

I think it's useful to mention that x, y and z are regional specialties, because the visitor is more likely to get good versions of them in Region A. Dunno about cobb salad, but I wouldn't expect to get equally good cheesesteaks in Philly and like, Ogden, Utah. Not so sure New York cheesecake isn't best in New York, either. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:10, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

I doubt if there's any regional dish in America that's not available nationwide, if perhaps not as widely outside its home region as within. I think it's fine to delineate the different culinary regions of the U.S. (for instance, California, the South, the Southwest, New England, etc.) and maybe devote a paragraph apiece to giving a general description of the cuisine along with name-checking a few regional dishes. But a bullet-point list like we have now, as I said, will either remain permanently incomplete or grow so long as to overwhelm the article. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:36, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Well, breakfast burritos are standard fare in California and huevos rancheros are standard in California and New Mexico, but though available, they are very scarce in New York City. Similarly, try to get decent pastrami in the rural Midwest, or even decent bagels anywhere where Einstein Bagels are what pass for so-called "New York-style bagels" (assuming they haven't improved since the time I was unfortunate to try one in Columbus, Ohio). And see how many diners serve grits in New York. In short, I very much disagree with you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:50, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Just because they're no good doesn't mean they're not available! -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:57, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

I think you're really pushing things here. Breakfast burritos are available at any diner in California, pretty much, and very scarce here in New York City. You might as well call Georgian (from the former Soviet Union) food "available" in New York - it is, but it's quite obviously not local fare and not widely available. And do we want to recommend for visitors to eat food that sucks or favor regional food that's usually better? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:13, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

I've had the crappy freezer-burned Lender's bagels from my local supermarket, and I've also had them fresh out of the oven at Ess-a-Bagel on Third Avenue. Is there any comparison in terms of quality? None at all, of course. But is that crappy store-bought bagel enough for a person who's never heard of a bagel to grok the basic idea of what one is: a circle of dough, boiled and then baked, yada yada yada? Yes, I think it is. The point of this section of the article is not to recommend to readers where to get the best examples of a regional dish. We describe the dish, we tell them where the dish originated, and Captain Obvious tells them that the best versions of that regional dish are served on its home turf. But I do think it's important to point out that "foods like green tomatoes that truly are unusual outside their home region" aren't as numerous as some participants in this conversation might think. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 05:39, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

I named some others; do you really disagree? And it's not captain obvious that x can be OK outside of Y region but A is normally terrible except in B. If we want to serve the traveler, well then... Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:15, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Chicago-style Italian beef. Cincinnati Chili. Burgoo. Pimiento Cheese. Gulf Oysters. Derby pie. Deep Dish Pizza. Walleye. Scrod. Hot Brown. The jibarito. Malort. There you go, 11 foods and 1 type of liquor you're unlikely to find outside of their home area, just off the top of my head. I mean, sure, WRT Italian beef, Portillos has a place in LA, and I'm sure you can find random, far from home outposts for most of the others, but it doesn't mean you can get them in most cities. Point is, there are plenty of regional foods that are still largely unique to their home region Beeelb (talk) 21:59, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

A lot of "A is normally terrible except in B" is just chauvinism. New Yorkers will insist their bagels are the best and everything else is crap, but then again, so will Montrealers. You really think you can't get a good philly cheesesteak in Utah? It isn't a complex dish. And the other example that you can't get good pastrami in rural Ohio - well, the selection of anything in rural anywhere is going to be less than what you get in a big city. Sure, you might want to make a point to get cheesecake in NYC because it's from there, but you'll be disappointed if you expect it to be noticeably better than cheesecake from any decent bakery in any other city.Beeelb (talk) 22:17, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

No you won't, if you get S&S cheesecake. And as a New Yorker, in my limited experience in Montreal, I prefer their style of bagels, so what does that do to your argument that this is just about local chauvinism? As for cheesesteaks, it's not necessarily about whether it's complex or not; it's about whether it's likely to be done right or not. Most Italian pasta sauces are fairly simple to make, and it's certainly not that difficult to cook pasta al dente, but that doesn't mean you should expect to get good pasta just anyplace outside of Italy. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:57, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I've yet to find good pastrami here in Chicago that can come close to Katz's in New York City. And I think it absolutely is within our scope to tell people where the best examples of specific dishes can be found. Culinary tourism is a perfectly valid reason to travel. The dog2 (talk) 22:37, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. I couldn't agree more. Similarly, don't travel to New York for barbecue, even though you can get arguably decent barbecue at Dinosaur (originally from Syracuse, NY). Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:55, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Breakfast

While I agree that the distinction being made is potentially useful, I've never once heard the phrase "eggs in" or "eggs with" anywhere I've lived or traveled to. Is it regional? Is it jargon that's only used in kitchens? Leaving it for now in case it's a common expression that's somehow escaped me.Beeelb (talk) 14:55, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

I assumed those were intended as ad-hoc characterizations rather than commonly used phrases. I don't think I've ever heard "eggs in" either. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:02, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Origins of chop suey

Not so mysterious:

From w:Chop suey:

Chop suey is widely believed to have been invented in the U.S. by Chinese Americans, but anthropologist E. N. Anderson, a scholar of Chinese food, traces the dish to tsap seui (杂碎, "miscellaneous leftovers"), common in Taishan (Toisan), a county in Guangdong province, the home of many early Chinese immigrants to the United States.[1][2] Hong Kong doctor Li Shu-fan likewise reported that he knew it in Toisan in the 1890s.[3]

I think we should change the current text in this article to reflect this.

Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:35, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Whoever edited the wikipedia article likes that theory, but I've read rebuttals to Anderson who claim that chop suey's name may be derived from tsap seui but it bears almost no resemblance to the Chinese dish. I'll see if I can find a source.Beeelb (talk) 22:51, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

It sure makes sense, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:53, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Thai/sushi

One thing I've notice is that in the U.S., you often see Asian restaurants that advertise Thai/sushi. Of course, they don't serve authentic Thai cuisine or authentic Japanese sushi, but rather Americanised versions of both, but that seems to be something unique to the U.S. The dog2 (talk) 16:41, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Puerto Rican

I wonder if we should keep Puerto Rican cuisine as a regional American cuisine. While Puerto Rico is a U.S. territory, we treat it separately from the main United States of America article here on WV, so perhaps we should also treat Puerto Rican cuisine as its own unique cuisine, and not a regional variant of American cuisine. The dog2 (talk) 01:42, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree with you. Puerto Rican cuisine is best covered in the Puerto Rico article, as Samoan cuisine would be in the American Samoa (and Samoa) article(s). Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:06, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Upgrade to guide

Good job everyone who put in the effort of improve this article. It has really grown amazingly in the past few months. I was wondering though when this article will be ready for upgrading to guide status, so we could nominate it for FTT? I think it would be great if we could showcase to the world that the United States is indeed a worthy destination for culinary tourism. The dog2 (talk) 00:52, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

The main problem with this article is it's too "list-y". I'm thinking of two sections in particular:

• #Regional dishes has to be completely revamped. Currently it's a longwinded bullet-point list of individual dishes that are ordered alphabetically and therefore of little use to a traveller who'd presumably be visiting the U.S. region-by-region. What should be done instead is to dedicate a paragraph or two to each region and speak in generalities about the cuisine in each (e.g. the cuisine of New England makes liberal use of seafood; that of the South is very hearty and deep-frying is a common cooking method; that of the Great Plains and interior West is heavy on beef; that of the Southwest is heavily influenced by Mexican and Native American cuisine and often very spicy), followed optionally by a short list in prose form of two or three truly regional dishes. ("Truly regional" as opposed to dishes specific to one city only, such as jibarito and Provel cheese, information about which should be relegated to the "Eat" sections of their respective city articles.)

• As a trans-regional specialty that is itself broken up into different variations along geographical lines, barbecue should be treated as a sui generis and probably given its own paragraph within the #Regional dishes section.

• I'm less sure what to do about the even longer bullet-point lists in #Ingredients, but off the top of my head, a combination of moderately aggressive pruning and conversion of the remainder to prose format ought to do the trick.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:29, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree with the suggestions for rewriting the "Regional dishes" section. Individual dishes particular to one region or city should be moved to the corresponding region or city articles. —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:52, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

While I agree with the sentiment of making the article less "list-y", I think that if a particular city has its own unique cuisine that is different from the surrounding region, we should mention it. For instance, I think at the very least, New York City and Chicago cuisine are worth at least a sentence or two. The dog2 (talk) 01:58, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

The problem with that is the sheer number of cities in the United States with their own particular specialties. If we included them all, the article would be interminable. If we tried to set some sort of arbitrary threshold of what constitutes a city big enough to have its specific cuisine mentioned in this article, given the propensities of our editors the arguments back and forth might last for weeks, and even after we came to a resolution we'd still have to be eternally vigilant against unwelcome additions from every drive-by editor who thinks the unimpressive native food of their unimpressive hometown deserves a place on the list alongside the big boys. Instead of all that, why not simply sidestep the issue and, at the same time, take the opportunity to add content to some of our other city or region articles that might be lacking it? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:23, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

I get what you're saying, but for this to be an effective travel guide, I think we also need to at the very least point people towards the regions/cities of origin of some popular dishes. For instance, people might come to the U.S. wanting to try dishes like fried chicken, bagels, clam chowder and so on. We should let people know that if you want fried chicken, you should go to the South, for bagels, you go to New York City, and for clam chowder, you go to New England. I have actually tried to added content to the region and city articles, but I think this article should serve as a landing page to showcase the unique characteristics and sheer diversity of American cuisine, which can then direct people to the region or city articles for more details. The dog2 (talk) 15:40, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

"This has to be an effective travel guide" = we have to be realistic about how fine-grained we can make an article about a subject as broad as "American cuisine" while still having it be usable to a traveller. Breaking it down to the level of regions is no problem: "we should let people know that if you want fried chicken, you should go to the South... for clam chowder, you go to New England" is basically what I proposed above. But when it comes to individual cities, realistically speaking, which serves the traveller better: 1) making them wade through a 500-item list of every single city-specific local specialty in America on the microscopic chance that they'll zero in on, say, Provel cheese and proceed to plan an entire trip to St. Louis based around it, or 2) making the reasonable assumption than anyone planning to visit St. Louis will read the St. Louis article in addition to this one, and can learn about Provel cheese there?

(I realize I omitted your comment about bagels in New York City. Bagels are an element of Jewish cuisine more than an element of New York cuisine; they exist in different varieties in other cities as well. And the article has an entire section on Jewish cuisine in which bagels are already covered.) -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:52, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Also keep in mind that many allegedly city-specific cuisines are actually regional ones. New Orleans cuisine is a good example; its sphere of influence actually covers most of Louisiana plus the Gulf Coast of Mississippi and Alabama and a big chunk of East Texas too. I wouldn't be surprised if the same was true of much of New York and Chicago cuisine. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:04, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Isn't the solution to move any overly long content related to a city's cuisine to the city guide and keep a summary here? Or if that gets to long, move the whole section there? I don't think we want to discourage people from providing content, even if we decide at some point to move some of it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:08, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Also, I've gotta ask: Is it really possible that 500 cities have their own identifiably unique cuisines that are not regional, or is that a straw man? How many cities can you name with their very own specialties, let alone entire separate cuisines? New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Cincinnati, Detroit, Chicago, Buffalo, Rochester, New Orleans, San Francisco, St. Louis - let's assemble a list and see how long it is, before we draw conclusions that there are 500 of them and it'll be unmanageably long.

Alright, I see the 500 referred to the number of items in a list of city dishes, not the number of cities, but I addressed that by saying we could have a summary of each city here and details in [[That City#Eat]]. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:13, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘Here is what I will propose. If a city is only known for one or two specific dishes, then we maybe cover those in the respective regional sections, so things like Philadelphia cheesesteak and Maryland crab cakes can be mention under the Mid-Atlantic section. But for cities with an entire distinct cuisine, we could provide a summary in this article. So far, the only American cities I can think of with an entire cuisine are New York City, Chicago and New Orleans. The dog2 (talk) 16:36, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm still not sold. Buffalo is the 83rd most populous city in the U.S. as of the 2010 census, and Buffalo#Local specialties lists 11 individual dishes, which I think is certainly enough to be called an "entire distinct cuisine". If even half of the 82 more-populous cities have an equally rich culinary repertoire, and even if we were to to summarize that repertoire down to a sentence or two for each city (assuming that's even possible), we're still talking way more information than this article can handle. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:43, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Right, but we can see how things actually go and then decide where to move stuff if necessary. I doubt every one of those cities has notable local specialties that aren't regional, but I could be wrong. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:55, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

For better or worse, the American cities that are best known for their distinctive cuisine internationally are New York City, Chicago and New Orleans, so I guess that could be a justification as to why they should have their cuisines specifically mentioned here, while most other American cities should not. While there's lots of good food to be had in Los Angeles and San Francisco, people typically do not think of them having a distinctive cuisine. The dog2 (talk) 17:45, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Have you heard of Mission burritos and cioppino? Both from San Francisco. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:42, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

I've heard of those in passing, but never tried them. I had no idea that they were specific to San Francisco. The only specifically San Francisco dish I have tried is the sushi burrito. The dog2 (talk) 22:53, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: Since you mentioned those, would you mind updating the San Francisco article? Those dishes are not mentioned in that article, and if they are indeed local specialities of San Francisco, they should be. The dog2 (talk) 00:49, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I'll do my best to get around to that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:53, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

I realize I never addressed the "if you want chowder, go to New England" remark. The second best-known style of chowder in the U.S. is Manhattan clam chowder, which has a tomato base, so you can indeed get local-style chowder in New York, just stick with Manhattan clam chowder. And I still think it's OK to detail the cuisines of various cities and then move the details to "That City#Eat". Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:16, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Just American?

How much of American cuisine#Cocktails is relatively universal? Should there be a page on cocktails that this one just links to? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:56, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

There are some cocktails listed with descriptions at Alcoholic beverages#Cocktails. A dedicated cocktails page is a good idea, and you could use some of what's at the link to help start the article if you like, leaving a summary at the source article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:05, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

De-"list-yfying"

Great job everyone who contributed to this article. I really hope that we can have this as a featured travel topic one day, and really show that contrary to stereotypes, the U.S. is in fact a worthy destination for culinary tourism. However, the consensus seems to be that the article as it now stands is too "list-y", and it needs to be trimmed down before we can upgrade it to "guide" status, so I'm starting this thread here. Any ideas on how we can do this? The dog2 (talk) 21:31, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

How can a cuisine article worth its salt avoid listing some common and recommended dishes? Yes, some people are concerned about the current and potential length of lists, but I don't see how or why we would do away with them in this kind of article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:04, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• PatsCheesesteak.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:25, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Ingredients section

While this was featured as FTT, I question the need for the ingredients section. It looks super user-unfriendly and for the most part, that would be the sort of text you would find in Wikibooks' cookbooks, not in a travel guide – in particular, I'm specifically talking about the fruits and vegetables. I understand that many contributors have put in a lot of work, but until it is cleaned up, the ingredients section remains user-unfriendly. However, in the meantime, I will look to see if any of this can be transferred to Wikibooks – so if transferred, no content is lost. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:18, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Have asked on b:Wikibooks:Reading room/General#Does Wikibooks accept cuisine books with just lists of plain ingredients?. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:02, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Would you suggest some kind of prose summaries of these sections? The thing is, they're quite informative. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:02, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek I somewhat forgot about this, but I got a response and it can be moved to b:Cookbook:Cuisine of the United States which is in scope and IMO a much better place for a rather user-unfriendly section. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:52, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Cool, but what would you replace it with here? I'm less convinced it's user-unfriendly than you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:04, 17 April 2022 (UTC)