Talk:Fine dining

Fine dining

Swept in from the pub

While the vast majority of us here (unless Bill Gates, Warren Buffett or Jack Ma are among our editors) will not get to try this too often, I was wandering if this would be a valid travel topic. The experience of fine dining is most certainly different from street food, or even from normal restaurants. The dog2 (talk) 19:22, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, of course. Also, an itineraries that take you through all the Michellin-starred restaurants in an area would likely be fun reading, even for us non-billionaires. I understand that some of them have attached accommodations. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:36, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

In Japan, there are many luxury accommodations (ryokan) that include a fine-dining kaiseki meal as part of your stay or as an optional add-on, which is only available to guests staying at those accommodations (i.e. you can't just book the meal without staying there). I'm not sure if there's any equivalent in Europe or North America. The dog2 (talk) 21:58, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree this would be a good topic. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:19, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

It is a misconception that fine dining is equivalent to expensive dining. If you want a nice atmosphere, table and napkin cloth, real cutlery and porcelain dishes, perhaps even on an exclusive address, it should not have to cost you more than the price of 2-3 happy meals. People eating fast food are the ones getting ripped-off. Philaweb (talk) 19:30, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Was going to say the same thing. I've had some very affordable fine dining meals in cities such as Bath and Barcelona, and conversely some overpriced bad alleged fine dining experiences in London. Either way, this is most certainly within our scope. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:15, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

An experience was in the restaurant of a five star hotel in Copenhagen about ten years ago (I just walked in from the street to check out the place). A gourmet burger with all ingredients prepared by the chef. Home baked bun, thick french fries and three kinds of dip. I had a hard time eating it all, but what a heavenly joy. 105 Danish kroner. After that I went to the nearest McD to check out the price of a happy meal... damn! Philaweb (talk)

My understanding is that fine dining is always expensive, but expensive dining is not necessarily fine dining. But anyway, how expensive it is depends on where you go. You can get fine dining for about US$100 per head in Bangkok, but you most certainly won't find any fine dining for less than US$300 per head in New York City, London, Hong Kong or Tokyo. US$100 may be peanuts for Americans and Brits, but it is way beyond the reach of your average working class Thai. The dog2 (talk) 22:04, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

I am certain that the average working class [insert your preference here] has other things to worry about than fine dining. When that said, anyone with an interest in fine dining can afford this in most of Western Europe – but, you have to be vigilant, there are many ripp-offs. A thumbs rule is not to order beverages to the meal, especially not alcohol, then you can kiss the affordability goodbye. In the Nordic countries noone expects tip, so this makes affordability straight forward (the price on the menu card is the total amount). Fine dining is possible for €20. Philaweb (talk) 22:26, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

PS. The most expensive steak I ever had was in Eastern Europe. They should have advertised it with: "Hand over your wallet, we'll take what we need". I guess only local oligarchs and western tourists can afford fine dining there. Philaweb (talk) 22:47, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

I started the article, so please plunge forward and add to it. The dog2 (talk) 03:57, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

It seems to me that the article has a narrower scope than "fine dining". It says: "Fine dining refers to a particularly refined form of dining that is usually employs more creative chefs than regular dining. Many chefs of fine-dining establishments are international celebrities.". The right term is gourmet dining (w:en:Gourmet). And then you are right, it is very expensive. Philaweb (talk) 10:50, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Hub of fine dining in the U.S.

Is it in fact New York? About 15 years ago, it was considered that Chicago had more of the greatest restaurants in the country, and that New York was slacking. That's probably changed, but frankly, I wouldn't know, as I generally stick to the low and medium end and only rarely go to places like the fantastic kaiseki restaurant in my neighborhood, Kyo Ya. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:18, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm most certainly not rich enough to go for fine dining all the time, but New York City most certainly ranks highly when it comes to fine dining from an international perspective. I tried Per Se once, and it was out of this world. And of course, there's Le Bernardin, which I've never tried, and Eleven Madison Park, which I didn't really like. I've heard from people that there's fantastic sushi restaurants in New York City that can rival those in Tokyo, though I've never tried those myself. As for Chicago, there's also a good number of options, including several I have tried, but if you look at international travel magazines, the coverage on fine dining is very focussed on California and New York, while the rest of the U.S., including Chicago hardly gets any mention. The dog2 (talk) 16:26, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I haven't cultivated a taste for sushi and sashimi because they get expensive really quickly, but I thought L.A. was generally considered to have better values in sushi than New York. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:20, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps. It's known that L.A. has a huge ethnic Japanese community, so I won't be surprised, but unfortunately, I haven't been to L.A. in nearly 20 years so I wouldn't know how good the sushi is. Here in Chicago, there is one fine dining sushi restaurant that opened less than a year ago, and it is fantastic; certainly on par with some of the Michelin-star sushi restaurants in Tokyo. Anyway, since you are a born-and-bred American, please expand and correct the part about the U.S. as you see fit. There is no doubt that the U.S. is a worthy destination for fine dining connoisseurs, and the cultural diversity of the U.S. makes its fine dining scene stand out in its own way. The dog2 (talk) 20:58, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm an American, but I'm currently poor and have never been rich, so my exposure to high-end restaurants is very limited. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:06, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

(Perhaps off-topic). As I mentioned elsewhere, fine dining does not have to be expensive. "Fine dining" is a catch-all for everything beyond daily routine dining and street food. A couple of generations ago, family gatherings at weddings, baptism, funerals and other religious holidays were considered fine dining as well – as they still are in many parts of the world. Finally, it does not have to be you that pays for "fine dining", it can be your friends, family or employer that picks up the tab. :) Philaweb (talk) 21:18, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Not all of us are that fortunate to have an employer that will do so. You have to work in a high-paying field like investment banking or management consulting. People with doctorate degrees generally won't make that much (unless you are lucky enough to found a successful company). The dog2 (talk) 21:22, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I do not agree with you. I have no education and have worked as a manual laborer all of my life. My employer has several times paid for fine dining (for my colleagues as well) – even though not the exclusive fine dining that you refer to. The joy is the same nomatter how much money you throw at it. A good chef is fine dining. Philaweb (talk) 21:50, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

What are you disagreeing for? Most Americans work for employers that _never_ pay for their meals, and a hell of a lot of us are freelancers or part-timers! Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:57, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

[Edit conflict] I know you'd like to change the name of this article to "Gourmet dining". But this article is not about family gatherings, unless they're at Michelin-starred restaurants and the like. And the fact that few people have employers that will wine and dine them like this should really go without saying. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:24, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

So this is a niché article about something very few people can afford? I am more curious as to why that is interesting to a broader audience? Philaweb (talk) 21:39, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

It's not something many people (certainly not me) can afford on a regular basis, but someone like me can save up to splurge on a meal like that about once a year or so. And quite often, when people travel, they might have one fine dining meal even if they don't do fine dining on a regular basis. So in short, it's not something that most people can do on a regular basis, but your average middle class person in the developed world can most certainly afford to save up to experience it on rare occasions. And I can assure you that a working-class American visiting Bangkok can afford a fine dining experience there; it is most certainly a lot cheaper than in the developed world. The dog2 (talk) 21:47, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

(Sorry, missed this one) I can agree with you that much, that there are more angles to the issue. Saving money for either travel or fine dining is certainly the most common procedure. And as mentioned elsewhere some people just like to read the articles for the thrill of it. Perhaps someone also would like to read about affordable fine dining? Philaweb (talk) 22:15, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

A lot of what's covered in a travel guide is, as you said, "a niche article about something very few people can afford", or that few will or can do for whatever reason. Consider articles about Antarctica, the North Pole, Mount Everest and the article about biking through Western Sahara (I can't find the article right away). Niche travel is fine to cover, as long as we have editors who know enough about it. And also, consider that the readership for travel guides includes people who like to read about things they may never do, as well as people who want practical advice for their next trip. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:55, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree with you, but there is a difference on fine dining and the articles you mentioned, because you don't have to travel that far – it can be around the corner and you don't know because noone wrote an article on that premise. We assume that fine dining has to be expensive and perhaps far away. Philaweb (talk) 22:05, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘@Philaweb:Are you by any chance from Australia? I lived in Australia for a number of years, and manual labourers are paid extremely well there; often more so that white-collar professionals whose jobs required university degrees. In the U.S., manual labourers are generally paid peanuts. You need to either be an investment banker, someone in senior management or have a very specialised skill set in order to be well-paid, and all these jobs require university degrees. And while not exactly the same, it's a very similar situation in Singapore too. The dog2 (talk) 21:59, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Welcome to Scandinavia! (and have a look at my user page) :) Philaweb (talk) 22:08, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

[Edit conflict] Travel topics that are global can deal with activities you can do at home as well as abroad. I think that's OK. But part of what should be added to this article is some commentary on what you can expect your experience to be like, for example at a Michelin 2- to 3-star in France, or at high-end restaurants in Japan. And just to say, my parents were both college professors, so they weren't rich, but between them and my brother, we did have enough money to go for lunch at a Michelin 3-star in Paris and a couple of Michelin 1-stars in other parts of France. Also, when I was making more money, I took my girlfriend to that great kaiseki restaurant I mentioned above, and I've also been to a high-end Italian restaurant in New York a few times (though not too recently). I also used to treat my cousin to a meal at a now-defunct upscale California-style place in Venice, CA. I could go on from there, but it backs up Dog's point that people who are somewhere between lower middle-income and upper middle-income but not truly rich can eat at higher-end places for special occasions. Ikan Kekek (talk)

I understand your point, and perhaps even agree, but I can also see that you call it high-end or higher-end, and that is fine with me... so why not call this article what it really is about then? Philaweb (talk) 22:23, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

"High-end dining" would be fine with me. Also, Nordic countries need to be covered. My brother and sister-in-law went to Noma during a trip to Copenhagen, and I understand some people consider it the best restaurant in the world. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:27, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

What did your brother and sister-in-law think of Noma? Philaweb (talk) 22:42, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

One of the co-founders and investors in Noma, Claus Meyer, also owns Agern Restaurant in New York. Has one Michelin star since 2016. Nordic cousine, just around the corner. Philaweb (talk) 23:17, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I agree that the page can be expanded by covering what to experience when you go for fine dining. I would say in a Western setting, you get multiple small courses, and you would expect to have your cutlery changed at every course. And I believe you will be given a copy of the menu to take home, and sometimes even some breakfast for the next morning. For Japanese, at least when I had kaiseki in Kyoto and Kanazawa, you get a private room with a traditional Japanese interior design, and just like in Western fine dining, you get things brought to you course by course. But unlike for Western fine dining, you don't get a menu or breakfast to take home, and you instead just get to keep your napkin. For edomae-zushi and fine dining tempura, the chef makes everything in front of you and puts it on your plate, and you don't get anything to take home with you. The dog2 (talk) 02:01, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree on how to expand the article. I really don't want to rain on anyones parade, but what you mentioned is standard for regular affordable fine dining as well in most of Europe (except the breakfast part). The wages are pretty low in Eastern Europe, so having more than one waiter is possible there. What is not included to regular affordable fine dining (or what you do get with high-end dining) is perhaps Michelin star(s) or something similar, perhaps a renown chef (who says hello to guests once in a while) and a building or scenery exceptionel. Special smoking lounges with cigars for sale is exclusive. Live music just for you is very exclusive. The real difference is the price, naturally. Finally, if you're looking for a specific cuisine like Nordic or French, you do have to pay a premium.

PS. A big difference between regular fine dining and high-end dining is space. At high-end dining you normally don't have to worry about where other guests are sitting. Your chair does not get caught in other guests chairs. You maybe even get your own corner or private room. High-end dining also comes with high-end interior design, which preferably matches the prevalent cuisine. Philaweb (talk) 12:13, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

My brother and sister-in-law liked Noma a lot. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:18, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Very good. I have not been there, even though I have heard a lot of good things about the place. Philaweb (talk) 16:11, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ In case anyone wonders why in the world an employer would pick up the bill on fine dining, there are a few occupations where you do not need an education and still get to travel and see a bit of high-end world. Sales, representation and exhibitions comes to mind. Sometimes even the customer picks up the bill. ;) Philaweb (talk) 13:20, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Don't forget that Scandinavia is not like the rest of the world. I'm not sure which country you're from, but very few countries are like Norway or Australia where manual labourers and tradesmen are very well paid, and everybody with a full-time job is accorded a certain degree of respect. Just as a comparison, in Australia, it is perfectly normal for the CEO to have lunch with the janitor, while in the U.S. and Singapore, you need to hit at least middle management for a CEO to consider you worthy of talking to him. So if you are uneducated, pretty much the only way you're going to be able to afford luxury is to somehow found your own company and make it very successful (just like Bill Gates). The dog2 (talk) 14:55, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

I am well aware of the rest of the world, and I think you misunderstand my point. I don't think that culture differences should keep us from writing articles that are usefull to professionals as well as ordinary Joe's. There are people making a living as secretaries, roadies, handymen, personal fixers, go-getters and "consultants" to directory boards, CEO's, sales organisations etc. Wikivoyage could be a very good tool to those professionals when they probe uncharted territory, i.e. so they don't book regular fine dining and claim it to be high-end (just as an example). Philaweb (talk) 15:48, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

PS. I am still trying to figure out about the janitor and CEO having lunch. It is not something that I have experienced or even heard of. All I wrote is that the employer picks up the bill. The employer does not have to be present, they just pick up the bill. Philaweb (talk) 17:33, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

What I mean is that in an Australian company, you will often see the CEO and janitor sitting together in the break room having lunch. You'll virtually never see that in an American or Singaporean company. If you ever visit Australia, you'll notice that "menial" labourers are treated with a high degree of respect there, and people in general feel that the high salaries they make is fully deserved. On the other hand, in Singapore and the U.S., it's common for managers and other "higher level" personnel to look down to these people. The dog2 (talk) 18:14, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Okay, I see, you got me confused there. I thought the CEO and janitor had lunch at a high-end restaurant, since the latter is the subject. Well, that's a different tune then since a lunch at the company is not expensive (perhaps a lunch paid by the company). Most manual laborers that I know of bring a homemade lunchbox (the least expensive). Philaweb (talk) 18:26, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

OK, I guess I also wasn't clear as to what I meant. But in short, what I'm trying to say is that manual labourers in Australia and Scandinavia are accorded a lot more respect by the general society than in many other countries. So it is most certainly plausible that an Australian or Scandinavian employer will be willing to pay for their "menial" workers to have a nice meal, while an American employer will not. The dog2 (talk) 18:41, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

I can agree to that. A paid lunch for an individual employee is technically considered a benefit (part of the salary), which is why most employers do not pay the lunch, but compensate the financial loss of the canteen (not given to a physical person). Ergo, the employee pays for his lunch, but at a reduced price. It is still less expensive though to bring ones own lunch.

What I was trying to convey is, that certain people working the manual laborer part of an event (sales, representation, exhibition, fairs etc.) are also part of the team when they go regular fine dining (not high-end dining). There is no senior personel present, the cost is part of the event, so the employer picks up the bill. Philaweb (talk) 19:33, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Special ingredients, other directions for further development

I started a "Special ingredients" section. We don't want to make it too listy, but I think it can really help people who don't usually indulge in this kind of dining if we do it right. It will be important to recommend particular parts of the world which are best for each product. I know there are a bunch of types of seafood that deserve a mention (off the top of my head, lobster, king crab, uni/sea urchin, dungeness crab, abalone) and also fugu in Japan, Dover sole, top-quality tuna sashimi (not checking the Japanese names now - hamachi?). I personally like uni a lot when it's not fishy. Morels are also a luxury item worth a mention, and it's interesting that chanterelles tend to be expensive in the U.S. but are not expensive in season in Germany, when they are gathered in the Black Forest. I think it's also worth explaining what heirloom vegetables are (briefly, although someone really knowledgeable could mention geographic regions for some particularly good ones).

I'm fading tonight, so I'll mention some other avenues for further development of this article:

There should be a mention of wine pairings. No need to go into detail, though. The greatness of high-end sake should also be mentioned. Cocktails (aperitifs, digestifs) are also worth a mention, though we go into them in more detail in the Alcoholic beverages article.

Another issue is, should we link to the Michelin guide for France? Michelin is not reliable in some countries, but I believe their restaurant guide is still pretty much considered the most authoritative in France. However, it's a secondary source, so it normally wouldn't be linked in a Wikivoyage article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:34, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind an exception for this, and we do have a link to Tabelog in the Japan article. As for premium ingredients, for Chinese fine dining, abalone is commonly featured, as is lobster and jinhua ham (金華火腿 jīn huá huǒ tuǐ). Sharksfin is a traditional premium ingredient in Chinese restaurants, though I understand it's controversial so I'm not sure if we should list it. And to answer your question about Japanese tuna, the fattier one is called ō-toro (大トロ), the slightly less fatty one is called chū-toro (中トロ), and the one that has minced fatty tuna mixed with wasabi and onion is called negi-toto (ネギトロ). There's also one even fattier than ō-toro called kama-toro (カマトロ), but in general you won't get to try it unless you go to a top-end edomae-zushi restaurant, and even then they may not have it every day. I believe in Japanese dining, A5 wagyu beef would be considered a premium ingredient and is very expernsive, and of course, there's Kobe beef which is a subset of wagyu beef. And you may be surprised to know that there are even more premium types of beef in Japan than Kobe beef, though these are generally not exported.

Speaking of Western fine dining ingredients, I think perhaps Spanish jamón ibérico should also be mentioned. And I'm not sure if Italian prosciutto di San Daniele would count as a premium ingredient. The dog2 (talk) 16:40, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

There's also that fatty Hungarian pork, which I forget the name of. I think controversial ingredients should be listed and mentioned as controversial, as I already did with foie gras and caviar. Our readers may want to know that when they see ingredient x, y or z featured, it's controversial because of a, b, or c. Then they can make a more informed decision about whether to order it or not. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:17, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Speaking of which, it is common to have premium Chinese teas when you have Chinese fine dining, but unlike wine pairings in Western fine dining, you don't have different teas being paired with different courses. You just choose one type of tea for the entire table to drink for your entire meal. And for Japanese, while premium sake is available, you don't normally get different sake pairing with each course. You just have a toast of sake with the chef for premium sushi and tempura restaurants. And you're also typically served Japanese tea with your meal. The dog2 (talk) 18:22, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Those are kinds of things that I think should be added to the article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:46, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

When to drink warm sake and cold sake? Where to get excellent peking duck (outside China)? Philaweb (talk) 20:05, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

BTW... chanterelles are very cheap in the Baltic states when in season. Just out of curiosity, what is the price in the US for chanterelles? Philaweb (talk) 20:16, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm not current on U.S. pricing for chanterelles, but for example for years there was a high-end restaurant in Manhattan's Tribeca called Chanterelle. I'm not sure when I last saw them for sale. Good sake normally is drunk chilled, not warm. Beijing ka ya (Peking duck) is widely available and not that expensive in Beijing. When you get it elsewhere, it might be Cantonese-style (despite the name), and if not, it might not be done really correctly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:32, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Traditionally, Peking duck requires the use of force-fed ducks, much like foie gras, though I'm not sure if they still do it these days. And if you go to Beijing, there are the more traditional versions that are not too expensive, and there are also more modernised and refined versions that are more expensive, but both require wood-fired brick ovens and someone to blow into the duck during the roasting process. Here in Chicago, we have a restaurant that serves it in the refined Beijing style. The dog2 (talk) 23:59, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Refined Beijing style – have to look out for that. Thank you. Philaweb (talk) 20:20, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

If you go to Beijing, a famous chain of restaurants that does it the refined style is called Da Dong (大董). You should absolutely check it out if you're there. Unfortunately, they don't have a web-site The dog2 (talk) 21:58, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip, but I wont be going there anytime soon. For different reasons. I would love to try the peking duck if I could somewhere in Europe. Perhaps London would be an obvious choice. Philaweb (talk) 23:14, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I don't know about Peking duck, but if you want high end Cantonese dim sum, Royal China is a great chain of restaurants in London for that. The dog2 (talk) 06:15, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Fungi

I am a little confused about the lastly added fungi. I am probably biased, as most of those are commonly picked for own consumption over here (thanks to the right to access and a long tradition of using mushroom for food) and often available quite cheaply (€5–10/L) in the outdoor market. I have not come to associate them with fine dining, although they of course are used also in those settings (export of Boletus edulis from here to Italy became a big business a decade or so ago).

An other issue: The honey fungi (Armillaria) were still allowed to be sold in Finland seven years ago, but are now considered unsuitable for commercial use due to difficulty to distinguish the edible species from Armillaria ostoyae (Wikipedia says they are easy to distinguish "in most areas of North America", but the source is from 1974).

--LPfi (talk) 13:58, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

In some parts of the world "dangerous" food is served by competent chefs that can distinguish between the approximately 10-12 species of honey fungi (Armillaria). Honey fungus must be thoroughly cooked as they are mildly poisonous raw. Even though fungi can be picked in the wild in the Nordic countries, as you mentioned, most people don't know how to spot, prepare and eat any fungi except cultivated ones and chanterelle. There is hardly any living soul that knows how to forrage the woods for fungi anymore in the Nordic countries. And the Nordic countries (except perhaps Denmark) are known for being restrictive on "dangerous" things and tend to prohibit, just in case, even though any normal intelligent person with some basic training can destinguish between and cook fungi properly. In Eastern and Southern Europe it is different though and restaurants in large cities pays a premium for fresh (in season) fungi.

Fresh chanterelle (in season) has a price tag of around €20-25/kg or more in an ordinary supermarket in Southern Sweden and Denmark. In the US it is around US$ 25/lb., or more than twice the price in most places in Europe. Fresh fungi (in season) are quite expensive at receivers end, and need a knowledgable chef to make people appreciate their taste. Most of the fungi sold in stores in the Nordic countries are from either Poland or Lithuania. Philaweb (talk) 19:20, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

It's not that strange for things that are widely available in once place to be luxury items elsewhere. That can be clarified in the guide, and it's an important point, because if you love, for example, chanterelles, you should look for them if you're in Europe when they're in season. It's good to give the words for them in different languages - my girlfriend and I learned the word "Pfifferlinge" when we were in Duesseldorf and enjoyed a couple of types of chanterelle soup and a side of sauteed chanterelles in two restaurants while we were there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:44, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

I think the situation in supermarkets in Finland is the same as in Sweden, but Turku is (was? it is paying a heavy price for construction works on the site) blessed with a lively open-air market. I think the mushroom foraging culture in Finland is older and stronger than in Sweden (we did not need a king from France), so in season you can get chantarelles and funnel chantarelles any day (half of them from Estonia, but only half), and some days there is a couple of other species (picked wild by the farmers). Last year there were regularly sellers with Boletus edulis. To really make use of that, you should of course be a good cook yourself (restaurants do not like ingredients with spotty availability). Most people also here know and use only a few species (if that), but I know people who have a repertoire of twenty or more, doing the foraging themselves. Finland has had a system with only some native species (about fifty) certified for commercial handling, with formal education and procedures to avoid mistakes. EU changed the legislation, but I believe the education and the procedures are left. I trust the group declaring honey mushrooms not suitable really did find something new about the risk to make mistakes. --LPfi (talk) 22:10, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't know if this is true in Finland, but quite a few high-end restaurant chefs buy whatever looks good that day in the farmer's market and compose their daily menu based on that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:16, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

I believe that is true, also here, about a select few high end restaurants. You won't see horn of plenty (Craterellus cornucopioides) in any ordinary restaurant, despite it having an excellent taste. What about the parasol mushroom (Macrolepiota procera)? I believe it is well known and highly valued at least in France (also here, but I have not seen it on any menu). --LPfi (talk) 22:29, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

"we did not need a king from France"... LOL! Well, take a drive through the Baltic states in the fungi season, and you will see car after car on the roadside in the forrests (about 40% is covered with forrests). In the forrests you will spot a lot of fannies sticking up when people are busy picking mushrooms. Some elderly women sits at the roadside with mushrooms and berries for sale, and you can get chanterelles for perhaps €5/L, or even for less if you have the nerve to haggle. If you see people picking mushrooms in Sweden, you can be certain their cars have Polish, Lithuanian or Romanian license plates (they work in Sweden, but pick mushrooms like home in their spare time), I have even seen mushroom pickers from the Ukraine. Philaweb (talk) 22:56, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

PS. This is what a gourmet wholesaler offers in fungi in Spain. Horn of plenty/Black Chanterelle is amongst the offers. Philaweb (talk) 23:02, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

U.S. prices

My views may be skewed by being in New York, but $200 isn't super-high end for dinner, especially if you have wine, where the sky's the limit. Similarly, where are you getting out of a good steakhouse, having also had good red wine, for $100? I'd tend to up those prices to $150-200 for the steakhouse and $200-300 for multi-course gastronomic cuisine with pours of wine with each course, but let's see what people living in less expensive parts of the U.S. say. I do know that fine dining is way cheaper in Pittsburgh, so maybe what we really need is a broader price range. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:08, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Feel free to provide an updated price range. /Yvwv (talk) 12:12, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

I'd rather wait for more views, because maybe the steakhouse should be like $100-200 and the gastronomic place, $125-350 or even $400. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:24, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm not aware of the context of this discussion, but how many people? For three or four people dining at a restaurant, $200 is reasonable in a more expensive restaurant in an upscale area (from Bay Area experience), but not in many other, less urbanized places. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 12:31, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Weren't those per person? Here in Turku, too small to have any upscale area, €200 for a three-course dinner for four, with wine, would perhaps be possible in some "mid-range" restaurants, but then you'd have to be very careful (leave out starter and wine if you have a tight budget, and don't go anywhere where you are expected to order them). 4×€70–80 would be normal for a full dinner even in mid-range places, and I would not be surprised over a 4×€200 bill in a high end restaurant. --LPfi (talk) 13:03, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't think $200 per person, outside of major cities, would be possible from my experience. For example, Pleasanton which I partially wrote and was featured as OTBP last year, had some restaurants where two people could spend $100, but that was in the "splurge" category. And I'd consider Pleasanton more expensive than the average American mid-sized city, and it is one of the most prosperous Bay Area cities, though not as expensive as Palo Alto. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:15, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

You seem to be right. I think €50 for a three-course menu is a normal price in a mid-range (reasonably cheap white-tablecloth) restaurant over here, plus wines, so €70–80 is still a reasonable budget, but it seems the "splurge" places are not that much more expensive (just a tad) for comparable dishes, you just don't get a main for €15. --LPfi (talk) 15:07, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

To clarify, I wasn’t including dessert in the cost, but yes, those prices sound quite similar to the ones with which I’m familiar. Florida from my experience is cheaper than the Bay Area, with main courses a few dollars, of course roughly the same exchange rate as the euro, cheaper, but definitely urban areas can have higher prices than the typical suburban area restaurant. Likewise from my experience airports and theme parks, etc., have higher prices than surrounding areas. --Comment kby Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:09, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

[undent]To clarify, here is the context: "In a high-income country such as the United States, a fine dining restaurant could charge around $200 for a gastronomic menu with drinks, and $100 for a steak menu with house wine..." To me, this is entirely about upscale to high end restaurants, not at all about anything mid-range, and it's also not about Finland. And it's certainly about multi-course dining, not about how to economize in an upscale restaurant by having no dessert and drinking only water. And there are plenty of high-end restaurants in places like New York, the Bay Area, Chicago and Los Angeles where that could cost $300-400 or even more, and there are cities around the world with much more expensive high ends, such as Tokyo. The whole point of this passage would in my opinion be lost if we focused on mid-range places that have some gourmet tendencies and happen to use white tablecloths as part of their image. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:12, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Depends on what you want to book. Alinea's chef's table in Chicago costs $395, including dessert but not including wine. Over in Singapore, if you include wine, prices of over S$800 (~US$600) per head are unheard of. And by the way, my friend who is an investment banker in the US says that when he entertains clients, sometimes the meals can cost over $2,000 per head, though that is of course at the company's expense. I personally have never had such an expensive meal. The dog2 (talk) 18:41, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

In that case, the text sounds reasonable. SelfieCity 18:47, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Which text? I also have never gone to a restaurant that charges truly stratospheric prices and the most expensive bottle of wine at a meal I paid my share of was $90 (I normally wouldn't order a bottle for more than $55 or so). But I certainly know about such establishments. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:22, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

The current text you referenced in your comment. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:35, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

I still disagree. The point the text seems to be trying to make is that high-end restaurants can be very expensive. At the very least, we need to mention that with wine, the sky's the limit. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:47, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Sure. Go ahead and make that change. Just for reference, if you get a Chateau d'Yquem Sauternes dessert wine, one half-bottle can easily cost over $10,000. The dog2 (talk) 01:16, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Can I also change the prices to "$200 or more" and "$100 or more"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:06, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Sure, go ahead. The dog2 (talk) 03:26, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:48, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

The point is that a meal of regular ingredients (steak, potatoes and a glass of regular non-vintage wine) costs more at a white-tablecloth restaurant, than a similar meal at a casual restaurant. Also, the price gap is significant in all countries, but moreso in a low-income country. /Yvwv (talk) 16:08, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

"Proud of Japanese colonial heritage"

This edit introduced the claim that "Taiwanese people are proud of their Japanese colonial heritage". I'm pretty sure this is a problematic statement but don't know enough to opine.... Can we please discuss this? Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:05, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

I'd say it's not really necessary—remove that phrase and start the paragraph with "Taiwanese fine dining prominently features..." —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:52, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

My experience travelling to Taiwan is that young Taiwanese in particular have a very strong affinity for Japan, and many Taiwanese see their Japanese colonial history as an important part of their heritage that distinguishes them from the Chinese. It's in a sense analogous to how many Hongkongers view their British colonial heritage. The dog2 (talk) 17:53, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Other possible countries

I have yet to spend more than a day and a half in Korea, but I really like Korean barbecue, and I'll bet there are some great fine-dining restaurants in several South Korean cities. I wouldn't know enough to start a section on Korea, but anyone who knows should do so.

Some other countries that must have interesting fine-dining restaurants would presumably include India, South Africa, Argentina, Mexico, Israel, Turkey, and the Nordic countries should get a separate mention in the section on Europe. And the U.K. isn't specifically discussed. Again, though, I wouldn't be able to start any of these sections, but maybe seeing these thoughts might inspire someone who could. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:18, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

I could write something about Singapore, I guess, but I refrained from doing so to ensure that my decision to do so wasn't clouded by my own biases as a Singaporean. I can write a little bit about China if people like since I went to an upmarket Peking duck restaurant the last time I visited Beijing that was pretty food, but it's not a French-style degustation menu, so I'm not sure if that would count as fine dining by international standards. As for Europe, if someone has the expertise, for sure Spain, Italy and Germany should get their own separate mentions, and so should Russia. I've never been to Russia, but I have seen people post vlogs about fine dining in Moscow including in this restaurant. The dog2 (talk) 02:51, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

The last time I was in Beijing in 2004, I went to a restaurant in a hutong that supposedly served Mandarin food, and I would certainly call it fine dining. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:30, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

So should I write anything about Singapore then? I can if people want me to, but based on what I have seen on the internet, Singapore is not as highly regarded as Tokyo, Kyoto, Hong Kong or Bangkok when it comes to fine dining, so I'm not sure it would qualify as a fine dining destination. The dog2 (talk) 22:46, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

I get your point, but I'd say, sure, write about what you know. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:07, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Spinoff article on hams

Just wondering, do people find the section on hams still manageable, or do you think it's better to spin off a separate article dedicated to hams. I know there are also some more premium hams from Belgium, Croatia, Slovenia, the Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Portugal and Argentina that we can potentially cover if someone has more knowledge of the subject. The dog2 (talk) 17:20, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

The section is pretty extensive. It doesn't look long enough yet for a separate article, but if all pig-derived meats are included, that would include famous pork recipes and a whole lot of sausages. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:51, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Maybe insert with meat? /Yvwv (talk) 14:31, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Tea

The sentence

"In most of Asia, tea is served with many kinds of meals, including fine dining."

was changed into (my bolding)

"In most of East Asia, tea is served with many kinds of meals, including fine dining."

@The dog2: I has been in the belief that tea plays an important role also in Central Asia, Russia and probably also South Asia. If tea is served only in other contexts, I still think this is a bit misleading.

What about Europe? "Typically, tea or coffee are served with dessert, or as a closing dish with confectionery." In Finland, I think it is coffee that is served after a dinner, while tea may be available for those that don't want coffee. Is the tradition different between countries, or are the two commonly served as alternatives of equal status?

–LPfi (talk) 14:10, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

@LPfi: I'm not familiar with Indian fine dining. I know masala chai is sold by vendors in the street. But in China, tea is typically served with fine dining meals. Indians may drink tea too, but Indian tea culture does not have that kind of sophistication that Chinese tea culture has. Tea culture in China is like wine culture in Europe, or sake culture in Japan. The dog2 (talk) 14:29, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I know the Chinese tea culture is sophisticated. I now realise that the wording says nothing about the rest of Asia, it was the removal itself that gave me that impression. But do you know anything about Central Asian or Russian fine dining? –LPfi (talk) 14:37, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, no, I am not familiar with them. I know most of Russia's land is in Asia, but we typically regard Russia as a European country, and Russian cuisine to be "Western", so I had presumed that the Russians would have the same kind of wine culture as the rest of Europe. I know it's controversial to say this now because of the political situation, but culturally, at least to an outsider, the Russians have a lot more in common with the Americans and other Europeans than with the Chinese. The dog2 (talk) 14:44, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Although much of Russia was neighbour to or part of the Mongol Empire, Peter the Great made the upper class acquire European culture. Thus, fine dining traditions certainly became closer to those of France than those of China. I haven't been fine dining in Russia and I don't know what fine dining traditions survived the Soviet era (when it was said that the best Russian food could be got in some of Helsinki's restaurants, which might still be true). I just know that tea has a much more pronounced role in Russia than it has in Finland, and I assume that was true also for the upper class. –LPfi (talk) 15:16, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

(European culture spread to Asian Russia by the administrative personnel and workers, but I think villages off the beaten path, with ethnically indigenous inhabitants, have cultures closer to the Asian.) –LPfi (talk) 15:20, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Sure. The Buryats, Kalmyks and Tuvans probably have a culture more similar to that of Mongolia or Tibet than to the ethnic Russians. But those people are ethnic minorities, and ethnic Russians are culturally European. Unfortunately, I have only been to one Russian restaurant in Singapore, but the food there is heavily localised and not authentic by any stretch of the word. I know in British culture, people have tea for high tea at the Ritz, which can be considered a form of fine dining, but at dinner, it's wine that they drink except for maybe one pot of tea to go with the dessert course at the end. Let's ask our Russian editors for their views since they will know better. @Wolverène, Atsirlin, Brateevsky, Soshial: Is there anything we should know about Russian tea culture, and if tea features prominently in Russian fine dining? The dog2 (talk) 15:35, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Short answer: in Russia, it is common to drink tea after the meal, and tea is generally consumed in large amounts, although in the last years the younger generation has made a significant shift toward coffee as the drink that you casually consume during the day or when meeting friends in a cafe.

Fine dining in Russia would typically imply alcohol accompanying the meal, and it can be wine, beer, or even vodka (some of the Russian foods do not pair with wine). Berry juice (called "морс") would be a typical non-alcoholic option. But in more casual situations, when you do not want to drink alcohol and do not like juice because of its sweetness, ordering tea with the meal is perfectly fine and not uncommon.

I did not check the context of your question, but talking about the "tea tradition", one would also think about samovar, pryanik, baranki. All these things go 200 hundred years back, if not older. They are part of an authentic Russian tradition, as it is presented in museums or during events and festivals, although in the daily life one would never drink tea in this slow and "festive" manner. -- Alexander (talk) 18:12, 14 October 2022 (UTC)