Talk:Spanish phrasebook

Archives Talk:Spanish phrasebook/Archive

Informal and formal

I think these would only make it more complicated for a new Spanish speaker. Perhaps we should just go with the formal one in the case of this phrasebook? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:06, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

This distinction is made in most travel phrasebooks I've read, and is also made on other Wikivoyage phrasebooks, such as French. So, no, I don't agree. Part of language-learning (and, ultimately, travel) is being exposed to unfamiliar concepts.

And both the formal and informal are useful, even for beginners. Compare a business traveller who wants to nail a few key phrases in order to please his interlocutors in a meeting that is otherwise conducted mainly in English or with a translator, with a young backpacker who wants to make friends and date locals while (s)he is travelling.

¡Feliz Navidad! --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:52, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Verdad --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:00, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Agreed that we don't want to make this a guide to learning the language (that's why we have b:Spanish and v:Spanish) but this is a distinction that is pretty basic and I could see being very useful if you make a good friend while on the road and he uses tu/vos with you. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:40, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

True. But when you're going to order tickets for a train, bus, or make a purchase at a store, you use the formal. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:57, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Infobox on voseo?

The Spanish language has a - to my knowledge - rather rare phenomenon in that some dialects have their own second person singluar pronoun with its own forms, namely vos. To give an example, "you are" can be "vos sos" in e.g. Nicaragua, "tu eres" in Spain (both those would be "informal") and "usted es" in the formal case. Of course this is not even getting into plural forms, which can be be "ustedes son" in all of Latin America for both formal and informal and "vosotros sois" only in Spain in the informal case. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:49, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes, it should be mentioned and I think we at one point had such an infobox in the article, or mentioned it in the text. ϒψιλον (talk) 18:14, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

As I've learned Spanish, in this way it's actually the same as English, just that the English equivalent isn't used much nowadays: the equivalent is "thou". And, of course, it has its own verb endings, "thou art", "thou shalt", etc. rather than "you are" and "you shall". --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:32, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Yep, see here, and, of course, numerous Biblical texts for usage of "thou". --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:35, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Not quite. You is the second person plural form that used to be used as an honorific when addressing a singular person. The second person singular later fell out of use. Meanwhile "vos" is a form that is distinct (lexically and grammatically) from both the second person plural and the "regular" second person singular ("tu") form. Truth be told, there are not all that many forms outside of Chile where vos and tu differ, but those tend to be common words like "ser" ("tu eres" vs. "vos sos") and virtually all diphthongizing verbs ("vos podes" vs. "tu puedes"). Vosotros, meanwhile, while we're at biblical English, is only used in the Bible outside of Spain and its islands. Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:32, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

I think an infobox on vos is a good idea. We will have to strike a balance between accuracy, completeness, and readability, because the situation is pretty complicated with different verb forms used in different countries, and at least two countries (Uruguay and, according to Wikipedia, Honduras) seem to be developing a three-level politeness system with vos, tú, and usted. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:16, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, you guys are right. I'm thinking more of "usted" and "tú", not "vos". --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:35, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Definitely add an infobox, particularly for vos and vosotros, which are the outliers. Are you going to do it, Hobbitschuster? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:25, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘Sadly nobody seems to ever have gotten around to it... Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:24, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Fue tu idea, y tú hablas un mejor español que la mayoría de nosotros. Te invito de hacerlo.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:38, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. Just to add my 2 cents, it's a fact that voseo is very prominent in Argentina as well, and this is clearly noticed in the movie "The Motorcycle Diaries". Main actor Gael García Bernal, who is Mexican, is reported to have put some effort in perfecting these patterns of speech. Ibaman (talk) 23:20, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

@Hobbitschuster: Would you have the time? –LPfi (talk) 13:39, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Titles

@Mx. Granger: Since you speak Spanish, I'd like to ask if it would be useful to have a section on titles and modes of address. For instance, if I'm not wrong, you typically address men as señor, and women as señora. And I've heard of the term señorita, but I'm not sure if it would be considered sexist in this modern day and age. The dog2 (talk) 03:43, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

I'd recommend señor and señora, yes. Señorita is still used, and I think it's more common than English "Miss" or Chinese "小姐", but has the potential to sound sexist (at least according to this article on micromachismos). I can't think of much else to say besides that, though. —Granger (talk · contribs) 07:28, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Don/ Doña + first name is a not uncommon form to show respect. In general, there is a tendency to express formality through register of speech, the "usted" form and (if applicable) the use of "earned" job titles (e.g. abogado, ingeniero, doctor, profesor etc.) in lieu of the name. English of course lacks most of those options and thus must make more use of the "Sir" and "Ma'am" when formality is wished for. On a side note, I think it is silly trying to make a blanket statement about Señorita, given that the "sexism" accusation is very much an urban left/liberal thing which has some time yet before it penetrates into rural and conservative areas - and much of Latin America is still very much conservative on many social issues even if one is more likely to find radicalism on economic issues than among the liberal urbanites of the Anglophone world... Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:48, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

That sounds right to me. I thought of mentioning don/doña, but I think it's too advanced for a phrasebook. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:01, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Why too advanced? If it's not uncommon, it doesn't seem that hard to do - Don or Doña and the first name isn't hard to remember. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:12, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Speak of which, there was a Spanish girl interning at where I work at one point, and interestingly, she preferred to be called señorita rather than señora. She was an undergrad and from Madrid, so she's certainly not rural, but since her father is a diplomat, it is possible that she is more conservative due to coming from a noble family.

And while we don't have such issues with titles in English, there are most certainly differences between areas as to which terms are considered bigoted. For instance, we still use the term air steward/stewardess to refer to flight attendants in Singapore, but the term "stewardess" is considered sexist in America. The dog2 (talk) 23:11, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

We do have issues with titles, or else there wouldn't be a Ms. Magazine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:47, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

About don/doña: it's not uncommon but not especially common either. Used in the wrong context it would sound odd. And it's basically unnecessary – a traveller will do perfectly fine without it. I don't think I've ever called anyone don or doña except maybe after hearing someone else do so. If there's a need to show respect, go for usted, as Hobbitschuster says. (Caveat: this is the kind of thing that might vary from country to country. While I've lived in a couple of Spanish-speaking countries and traveled to others, it's possible that don/doña is more common in some of the countries I'm less familiar with.) —Granger (talk · contribs) 07:33, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm going to add though, if any of you have watched Zorro, you will come across the title don. As you may know, in the show, Zorro is the secret identity of Don Diego, who is in turn the son of Don Alejandro. The dog2 (talk) 18:59, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Hi! Don/Doña can only be used when you know the first name of the person you talk to; therefore, it should not be used by a tourist, as in a lot of countries could be considered uneducated or worst, not polite (at least); when I lived in Mexico and in a lot of telenovelas, doña (without name) cn have sarcastic or negative connotations and doñita (adaptation of señorita+doña) could also have sexual intentions said by a man. Señor/Señora would be more neutral (señorita is acquiring a sexist meaning in some countries, although still very used in anothers; I would use it whith women that are clearly very young, in a shop, for exemple, although using un Perdone (excuse me) to call attention would be neutral and with not possible problem whatsoever). I am a native speaker (European) and teacher of ELE (Spanish as a Foreign Language); let me know if there is something else I can help with. dpcossio (dpcossio)

Definitely! Look through the phrasebook and see if anything should be changed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:57, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Greetings and proposals

Hi! My name is David and I am quite new in Wikivoyage. I arrived to your guide because I am a language learner and I use them as a first approach to the language; however, I also am a teacher of my language to foreigners and I would like to direct them here for a first approach to Spanish.

I would like to help to improve it, so do not hesitate to let me know of anything you thing could be changed; also, I can always ask native speaker and teachers from any other Spanish speaking country if ever this could help to add or clarify points of discussion.

I would ask you to consider some changes that could make this guide one of the start guides in English. One is about the format and presentation, the other one about contents.

Regarding the format and presentation, please check the German and Hebrew versions of this guide. Don't you think that creating a summary of contents at the beginning, like the Germans do, would make your guide clearer and navigateble? Then, in another hand, it could be also quite more visual if we added tables, like in the Hebrew version, with columns: English sentence or phrase, Spanish sentence/phrase, possible IPA, figured pronunciation in an English way. Another exemple to take into account is the Italian version.

Regarding the contents:

a) We could add recordings to the sentences; this would allow us to complement the figured English pronunciation or, even, get rid-off of it. However, if we do this, we should consider...

b) Regarding varieties of Spanish, we could think on translate every English phrase into European (Spain)/Northamerican (Mexico)/Andean (Colombia or Perú) / Plata (Argentina) / Caribbean (Cuba). Most of the time, relations won´t be needed, except for Argentinian/Uruguayan voseo (that emplies a change in conjugation to speak to a single tú), but we could get records from native speakers from the different areas, if ever it was decided to use the Hebrew format of tables. I can request colleagues from other countries or we could use Forvo to get them. Forvo is a world languages pronunciation dictionnary where we can request native speakers to read any word or sentence and then download it in a mp3 that we could insert in our guide.

c) Regarding vocabularies (food, clothes, etc), we could insert images, like it happens in the wikipedia articles for pieces of art, like for exemple this one or [other page.].

It will take time, but I can help a lot with the Spanish part. However, the technical part... I am quite new on it. --Dpcossio (talk) 06:03, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Islands east of the eastern ends of Russia coloured in red?

Unless my eyesight is worse than I originally thought it would be, why are those islands on the far east of Russia coloured in red? (it's not easily noticeable, but it's near the Bering Strait.) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:52, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

It seems they seem to be islands of Alaska, those west of the 180° line + the one large island of Russia?. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:54, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Language school variant

@SHB2000: "Most language schools outside Europe generally teach Latin American Spanish." was added today. I suppose this is true in the Americas, but is it true elsewhere? In Australia? In all of Asia? –LPfi (talk) 17:30, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Latin American Spanish is the Spanish that's taught in Australia, so wrote that in my personal experience. Outside Australia, Spanish is not really taught anywhere (that is of course, excluding the Americas and Europe). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 20:23, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Not as a prime choice, but I'd be astonished if you can't learn Spanish in Japan, India, South Africa ... – and the Maghreb. I'd prefer saying that the Latin American variant is taught in the Americas and Australia, while insular Spanish is taught in Europe, if that's what we know. –LPfi (talk) 20:36, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

I think we can all agree that user:SHB2000's personal experience is limited (as is mine, and user:LPfi's, and anyone's...) We shouldn't be writing massive generalisations about the whole world based on a single person's experiences in primarily one country. "Latin American Spanish is taught in [the schools I attended in] Australia, and therefore in the rest of the world too" is not sound logic :P We either need decent evidence, or we should limit the statement as LPfi suggests.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:00, 21 November 2021 (UTC), edited 22:50, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

I'll revert my edit, but I might do some more research on this. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:43, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

I noticed in Uruguay that lots of people had a special interest in Australia and New Zealand, maybe because of the Southern Hemisphere connection. I wonder if something similar might contribute to the popularity of Latin American Spanish at schools in Australia. —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:35, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

That might be the case. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 20:20, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

A simple observation...

This phrasebook sure does expend a lot of excess verbiage before ever getting around to the first phrase.

To make this phrasebook REALLY useful, cut everything down to the heading "Phrase list". It's a phrase book, not a grammar encyclopedia.

Out with the rubbish! Mrkstvns (talk) 23:43, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

I think some understanding of a language is helpful. Most phrase books include some such description, and I think our approach on that works. If the problem is about having to scroll, perhaps something could be done about that, but scrolling is easy on desktop, there is the ToC, and the mobile view collapses the sections. The main sections are prescribed in Wikivoyage:Phrasebook template, so if you think some are redundant, we should move the discussion there (or at least add a pointer there).

It is of course easy to get carried away when writing the introductory sections. Are there some specific things that you think are redundant? (The section "When in doubt" really doesn't seem to belong to a phrasebook, but that's just a short subsection.) I hope you don't suggest that we skip pronunciation advice – with typical English speakers difficulty with pronouncing foreign languages, and the regularity of Spanish pronunciation, that would be a real disservice.

–LPfi (talk) 13:52, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

"When in doubt" could be deleted, but otherwise, I agree with you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:45, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with the first comment. A good phrasebook should include an introduction to the language to help the voyager understand its structure and pronunciation if they like, and this is what Wikivoyage's phrasebooks do (well, at least the well developed ones). --Ypsilon (talk) 15:50, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Caveats and Corrects

So the good part is:

1. You accurately determine the pronunciation of most letters in Spanish and explain the dialects.
2. You accurately translate English phrases to Spanish ones.
3. You give a good description of how Spanish orthography works

However, a few caveats:

1. You provide no sources or any evidence regarding the letter K. I've never seen anyone even on internet associate the letter K that way.
2. Just because a letter is more common in one language that's based on another doesn't determine whether it symbolizes a language or not.

In conclusion, there isn't much evidence to suggest that K is associated with youth culture or Basque language. Hope you understood my feedback and was able to explain it to you!

thanks! Akshatgos (talk) 06:41, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

@Akshatgos: Gracias. Just a heads up that Wikivoyage deliberately doesn't include references: the proof of our statements is someone going to a place and experiencing it first-hand and if it's not correct, updating it here. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Yeah I just deleted that line that says ot if that's fine with you Akshatgos (talk) 12:18, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Also, I just found out that this site is written 20 years back so the spelling attitudes may have changed Akshatgos (talk) 14:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your corrections and feedback. Just regarding your edit, do you have any examples of a silent K in Spanish? When would it be silent as opposed to pronounced /k/? ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:06, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I have an example. It's a proper name. Akshatgos (talk) 12:22, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok, what's the name? ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:29, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

"Knox" in loanwords/proper names, K would be either [k] or silent before N Akshatgos (talk) 12:34, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Just a question

So was this phrase book written relatively a while back. Is this phrase book relatively old? Akshatgos (talk) 12:58, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it is old, created in 2003. Here's the edit history for the last 14 years. –LPfi (talk) 13:28, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Things changing

So I know this phrasebook was written 20 years back in 2003. Could things have changed 20 years from now, compared to when this phrasebook was written? Uiquiuser (talk) 00:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Languages tend to change slowly compared to most other travel information, and of course the phrasebook has been edited many times during the past 20 years. Most translations wouldn't go out of date that quickly, but it's possible that with technological change certain phrases are less useful now than they were in 2003. If you notice any phrases that seem like they wouldn't be useful nowadays, or any major gaps, you're welcome bring them up here or edit the article. —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:15, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, slang would have changed, but it tends also to be regional and impossible for us to cover. A second-language learner and a phrasebook should be based on conservative language, which is improbable to offend or not to be understood. What current middle-age people learnt in school much before 2003 should still be understood by anybody, but if synonyms have become more common, we might want to use those instead.

I note that none of Wi-Fi, computer and internet is mentioned here or in the phrasebook template. There still is a "can I use your phone". Should a "Connect" be added to the template?

–LPfi (talk) 11:12, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Could attitudes to youth culture have changed aswell? Akshatgos (talk) 14:14, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Like anything? Is it possible that youth culture isn't too common now? Akshatgos (talk) 14:16, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to answer that question. Youth culture is always changing but is not usually covered in our phrasebooks.

To LPfi's point about a "Connect" section – I think we should. At least we should include sentences to the effect of "Is there wifi?"/"What's the wifi password?" When traveling in the past I have wished I knew how to say those in German and Italian. —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:45, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Is it possible that youth culture also gets rarer? Akshatgos (talk) 14:47, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Well, if there's any youth slang for common items that differ from the term that middle-aged people will use, we can certainly include some of them if you are likely to encounter them. The dog2 (talk) 17:25, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Sites created by a wikibot?

Hello, just a question, how common is it for any of these phrasebooks to have been created by a wikibot? I've heard, bots have taken over a large part of the internet, is it also possible that a wikibot or any bot may have created atleast one of these phrasebooks? Uiquiuser (talk) 00:22, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I doubt it. Is there anything in any of them that seems to tip off that possibility to you? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:27, 10 December 2023 (UTC)