Talk:Western food in Asia

Western food in Asia

Swept in from the pub

Hi everyone, I have started a new draft article in my userspace called Western food in Asia. After all, there are some interesting local variations on Western food that developed in Asia that you wouldn't find in the West, and this is analogous to how Asian food was changed and adapted to Western palates when it was brought to the West. I will progressively add more stuff to the draft article, but in the meantime, please feel free to add stuff to it. I believe ChubbyWimbus knows quite a fair bit about Japanese-style yōshoku, while 廣九直通車, Kdm852 and OhanaUnited would probably have some stuff to contribute about Hong Kong-style "soy sauce Western" food. And I wonder if Ikan Kekek will have anything to add about Malaysian Western food. The dog2 (talk) 19:30, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

I enjoyed some in K.L., but that was back in the 70s. My trip back to Malaysia in 2003 was too brief for me to want to eat any Western food there. I do know, though, from talking to others including my brother who tried it, that the food in Malaysian locations of McDonald's and KFC is much spicier and better than in the U.S. I'm sure that's equally true of Singapore and I think that merits a mention in this kind of article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:05, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

The dog2, I think this is an excellent article and I'll be watching closely to see its development. One bit of feedback. The item listed in the Hong Kong section as "Black cow/Snow White (黑牛/白雪公主)" is far from unknown in the West, or at least in North America: here they're called "ice cream floats". (While the traditional recipe calls specifically for root beer and vanilla ice cream, they're commonly available in pretty much any palatable flavor combination of carbonated soda and ice cream.) If there's anything unique about the Asian version by comparison with the Western one, it should probably be spelled out specifically in the listing; if not, it should probably be omitted. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:18, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

@AndreCarrotflower: Right, sorry I forgot about ice cream floats. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 15:50, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Looks good enough for mainspace: Western food in Asia. /Yvwv (talk) 16:52, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

I'll move it to mainspace if there is no objection in the next 24 hours. The dog2 (talk) 18:09, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Moved to mainspace. A big thank you to all who helped with this. The dog2 (talk) 18:36, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Less than two weeks since the Dog announced it & it is now in mainspace and has had contributions from quite a few people. It is rated Usable & I think getting close to Guide. Good work everyone! Pashley (talk) 10:16, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Nepal

@Pashley: Perhaps I'm being too picky here, but I mainly created the article to showcase variations of Western food in Asia that differ from the stuff that Westerners are used to back home. If the American cuisine in Nepal is authentic and very close to what Americans will find back home, then I'm not sure if it would be in the scope of this article. The dog2 (talk) 23:37, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

I disagree, and that's not the title. If we had an article about Chinese food in the U.S., we'd need to cover places that are truly Sichuan-style, Fuzhounese-style, etc., as well as American-Chinese-style (and for that matter, Peruvian-Chinese and so forth). Excluding places because they serve a very close simulacrum of the cuisine of their origins doesn't make sense. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:32, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Aunt Jane's circa 1970 was authentic. Her imitators half a century later, not so much. Pashley (talk) 00:35, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

OK, now that the scope has been clarified through this edit, what about the German bakeries in the Himalayas? I didn't go to any the one time I was in Srinagar, so I have no idea how echt-Deutsch they are or are not. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:56, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

My reason for wanting to have a more restrictive definition is just for practical reasons. Asia is huge, and we can't possibly cover every single Western restaurant you will find in Asia, and besides, why will say, an American want to travel to Asia just to try food they can get back home? Of course, listing an authentic American restaurant in say, the Bangkok article is fine, and I have no objection to that. The dog2 (talk) 01:15, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

I get your point, but the reason is that if you have lived in Asia for a while, you may miss home cooking. So it's more relevant to expats or students or contract workers spending a year abroad than to tourists. I'm OK with restricting the scope that way but still wonder about the German bakeries and how German they are. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:32, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Point noted on the German bakeries, but unfortunately, I can't help in this regard. As for authentic Western restaurants, those listings belong in the respective city articles. If you're an American expatriate in Bangkok for instance, or you know that you'll be moving to Bangkok, and you want to find some comfort food, then the Bangkok article is the natural place to look for such listings. For this article, it's best to focus on local adaptations because those are what would be interesting from the perspective of somebody trying to plan a trip. Realistically, an American is not going to plan a trip to Bangkok as a tourist just to try authentic American food that they can easily find at home, though if there is a restaurant in Bangkok that serves American food with a uniquely Thai twist, then it would make more sense to travel to try that. The dog2 (talk) 19:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I fully understand, and I'm fine with that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Western fast food chains

Why are we not covering those? I think it bears mentioning that you can get much spicier, tastier food in a McDonalds or KFC in Kuala Lumpur than in New York, and stating what the differences are in offerings. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:10, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

If the offerings in Western fast food chains are significantly different from that in their home countries, then yeah, I would say it belongs in this article. I didn't think McDonald's in Malaysia was anything special, but I really like KFC; I'd say so far the KFC in Malaysia is the best I've had. Something that might be interesting to note is that in Japan, the typical Christmas activity is to have KFC for dinner, though I personally have yet to try KFC in Japan.The dog2 (talk) 01:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

I haven't personally experienced these fast food chains in Malaysia, so my knowledge is second-hand, but some differences with U.S. McDonald's are obvious just by looking at https://www.mcdonalds.com.my/. They're serving boba milk, tea and coffee, Spicy Chicken McDeluxe, Spicy Lemon Chicken McDeluxe, Sweet Chili Fish Burger, and of course their restaurants are 100% halal. None of that is true in the U.S. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:32, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

I've added a bit about Ramly burgers and KFC in Malaysia that I have tried. If anybody knows more, please expand. The dog2 (talk) 02:10, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Speaking of which, Chongkian, do you have anything to add about uniquely Malaysian adaptations of Western food? The dog2 (talk) 04:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Talking from my experience (and without having to read this Wikivoyage article first - so what I write might be a bit redundant or overlapping), the significant difference I can elaborate is:

Culture:

• In Asia, people take fast food (which is mostly Western food in this case we are discussing) more often (almost like secondary staple food or food that they consume almost daily, either during office lunch break or during every week or everytime they go to shopping mall). In western countries, they still treat fast food much less often & most of the time they will cook at home.
• In Asia (except Japan), generally people will still leave the tray on the table & let the waiters clean up & throw to the bin, while in Western countries, almost all of the customers will clean up their food remaining & throw to the bin.

Food:

• In Asia, fast food food has (or has the option) for more spices in it, such as pepper, chilly, salt, MSG, dry chilly, tomato sauce, special local spice. While in western countries, most of the extra optional added flavor is probably only tomato & mayonnaise, in which for Asian people standard might be a bit too 'tasteless' and 'plain'.
• RICE - In Asia, many of the fast food restaurants will have the menu options with rice, such as McD, KFC, Pizza Hut (yes, even a pizza restaurant will sell rice as other option of food choices). While in western countries, many of the fast food chain restaurants do not have (and will never have) rice at all.
• In Asia, people will eat full meal (meat & rice) more in fast food restaurants, while in western countries, many will settle down with burgers & salad only.

So, is these answers good enough? Or maybe there are more things I can add on. :) Chongkian (talk) 13:42, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

All of this looks good to me except that I don't agree with this generalization: "In Asia, people take fast food (which is mostly Western food in this case we are discussing) more often (almost like secondary staple food or food that they consume almost daily, either during office lunch break or during every week or every time they go to shopping mall). In western countries, they still treat fast food much less often & most of the time they will cook at home." This might be true of many people in Europe, but it's much less true of a lot of Americans and I don't know how we'd quantify it, anyway. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:32, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Chow King

On the face of it, this is a Chinese fast food chain in the Philippines, so it doesn't seem like it belongs at all:

• Chow King sells Chinese food, using the serving style of Western fast food: the menu is on big illuminated signs, pay when you order. Some dishes are authentically Cantonese, others such siopao and chicken lauriat adapted. They also offer halo halo.

We're including it only because of the "serving style", though seemingly, none of the food is Western-style? Pashley, would you like to comment on why we should cover them in this article? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:36, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

I just put them in because they are one of several chains the company has. Their food is closer to generic American Chinese food than to anything you'd find in China, plus there are some Filipino adaptations. Greenwich is also debatable; their pizza is not much adapted. Jollibee & Mang Inasal are basically all adapted & all four chains are ubiquitous. Pashley (talk) 00:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

You could always mention the non-Western chains in passing without detail in this article. Although, do you think the similarity to American-Chinese food is more than coincidental? I've had the chance to try Cuban-Chinese, Peruvian-Chinese and Jamaican-Chinese food, and they are all quite similar to one another, so a lot of what we think of in the U.S. as old-school Chinese takeout is not uniquely U.S. at all. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:12, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

As someone who lived in Australia before coming to the US, I will say that American-Chinese food and Australian-Chinese food are extremely similar. Of course, both America and Australia also have authentic Chinese food in the Chinatowns in major cities. The dog2 (talk) 02:11, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

And in some cities, outside of Chinatowns, too (I say as I just finished some Sichuan dry pot takeout from a restaurant around the corner). Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:15, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Fixed. Pashley (talk) 06:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Beverages

I just added a section under Western_food_in_Asia#Vietnam on an unusual coffee available there. Other coffees that might be mentioned are w:Kopi luwak, mostly from Indonesia, and Kapeng barako in the Philippines. There are also some unusual beers; a pineapple beer is common in Hainan & Beer Lao (found in Western China as well as Laos) gets surprisingly good results by applying French methods to a rice beer. Japan makes whiskey, China makes wine (adapted to local taste, often very sweet), and so on. Probably there are more examples I do not know of.

Reject all info on beverages as out of scope? Cover drinks in the country sections? Create a separate beverages section? I think I prefer the last solution. What do others think? Pashley (talk) 05:32, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

I think I'd re-title the current Destinations section as Eat, then add a Drink section. Pashley (talk) 06:06, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

If there's enough content then sure. Speaking of alcoholic beverages, Taiwanese whisky has won awards too. The dog2 (talk) 13:23, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

I think it's worth addressing the spread of German beer-making techniques and Scottish whisky distilling techniques, for instance, but is wine particularly Western? Depends. It apparently originated in Iran. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:04, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

In the case of China and Japan, viticulture and winemaking were introduced through contact with the West in the 19th century. It's a little more complicated in China though, because the Uyghurs have been making wine for centuries (and there are still a few traditional Uyghur wineries around Kashgar if you're interested), but for the Han Chinese, winemaking was learnt from the French. The dog2 (talk) 16:53, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

So that's relevant. Pashley, I'm not clear on how kopi luwak is relevant. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:27, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

I guess it's tangentially relevant. Coffee was introduced to East and Southeast Asia by Europeans, and there is an interesting way through which coffee was spread to Hainan. As mentioned in my edits concerning Singapore, many Hainanese immigrants worked as cooks for British employers, so they learnt the habit of drinking coffee and milk tea from the British, and these habits spread to the general population after some of these Hainanese cooks later set up coffeeshops and made use of the culinary skills they acquired while working for the British. Some of these Hainanese immigrants moved back to Hainan, and it was through these returning overseas Hainanese that coffee culture was introduced to Hainan. The dog2 (talk) 17:55, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

How far do we want to extend this? The following American foods were also introduced to Asia by Europeans: potatoes, tomatoes, chocolate, chilis. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:10, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Not chillis. Traditional Malay and Indian food uses chillis, as does Korean food and Sichuan food. For that matter, I think Japanese chocolate should be covered. I just haven't gotten to it yet. The dog2 (talk) 19:38, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Well, those traditions don't date back before the 16th century. Chilis are from the Americas, period. Before they were introduced to Asia by the Portuguese and Spanish, black pepper was used for spiciness, as it still is in various Indonesian dishes. So again, how far do we want to take this? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:01, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘That's interesting. I don't recall Portuguese food being spicy, and Spanish food certainly wasn't as spicy Malay, Indian or Thai food. But anyway, yeah, this will be a tough one then. Perhaps the way to draw the line will be based on whether or not the locals consider it "Western", or if the dish is was locally invented specifically to suit Western palates. In the latter case, I guess we can also mention sweet and sour pork. The dog2 (talk) 21:09, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Aren't the likes of sweet and sour pork, chicken tikka masala etc, the complete opposite of this article, i.e. "Asian" food in the Western world? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:19, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, but for sweet and sour pork, it is actually from China, albeit invented to suit Western palates. If you go to Singapore, sweet and sour pork is actually a fairly popular dish in Cantonese restaurants (if you ever visit Singapore again, I can recommend you an old-school Cantonese restaurant that makes amazing sweet and sour pork). And you can certainly find it in Hong Kong too. The dog2 (talk) 21:27, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Cool, but it's still not Western food.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:34, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

I haven't added it yet, but I will get down to adding a bit more about Japanese chocolate. Speaking of which, Ikan Kekek, what do you think about ice cream being considered "Western"? Apparently, it had its origins in China in the form of sorbet-style desserts, and Marco Polo brought the concept back to Europe with him. But of course, the version that we know today which uses milk is of European origin. The dog2 (talk) 00:20, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

I didn't know that it originated in China. I know they had it in ancient Persia. Snow from the mountains plus flavoring. But I can't remember distinctly whether that also used cream or was more like sorbet. I think the area of dairy is tricky, though. Of course the entire region of the Middle East, Central Asia, the Indian Subcontinent and areas inhabited by Mongol and Turkic peoples throughout Central and Northern Asia uses milk and dairy items a lot, and within China, so do the Tibetans, Kazakhs, Uighurs, Mongols, and several other non-Han peoples.

As for sweet and sour, are you really sure that in its original form, it wasn't a classic Chinese dish? I had sweet and sour pork in 2004 in a great restaurant in Beijing that presented itself as serving Qing Dynasty food based on recipes memorized by one of the last cooks for that dynasty and passed down to his grandson, I think was the story. They served us a set menu of small plates, and the sweet and sour pork was made with black vinegar and a bit of sugar, nothing whatsoever like the unnaturally glowing red goop that's traditional in American-Chinese sweet and sour pork. I believe the version we were served in Beijing is classic cuisine not created for Westerners. But I would further agree with ThunderingTyphoons!' take, which is that this is an article about Western food in Asia, not Overseas Chinese food, American-Chinese food or whatever, though on chicken tikka masala, I seem to remember seeing it in Delhi in 1977, and if my memory is correct, it would be an example of Indian-based cuisine invented abroad by an Indian chef and returned to India, although anyone's much more recent experience in India and Pakistan would supersede this kind of dim, possibly unreliable memory from me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:49, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: With regards to sweet and sour pork, the version you tried is probably the Shanghainese version. The Cantonese version is slightly different. In Singapore, because the Cantonese community is larger than the Shanghainese community, when we have sweet and sour pork, it is usually the Cantonese version. This is of course just a stereotype, but we generally regard sweet and sour pork as a dish primarily for young children and white people. The dog2 (talk) 01:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

I've had the Shanghainese version, too, and it was similar to that, but this was seemingly a Beijing-style version. But what are you saying about Cantonese-style sweet and sour pork? That it was developed in Guangdong for foreigners? Wikipedia seems to disagree. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:14, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I'm not an expert, so I may be wrong on the actual origin, but the popular belief in Singapore is that it was developed in Guangdong specifically for white people. The dog2 (talk) 01:26, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

And the popular belief in the U.S. is that the Chinese takeout version here was developed for white people here. But we're not dealing with folk origin stories, I don't think, and besides, if it was developed in Singapore, it's an adaptation of Chinese cuisine for Westerners, which is basically the reverse of what this article is about, namely adaptations of Western cuisine either for locals, though I could see where this could be a gray area like Anglo-Indian food, which though developed for the Brits became a local cuisine, too. But then I'd go back to this being an apparent origin myth for sweet and sour. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:42, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

On ice cream, read w:Ice cream. This is most relevant:

[undent] The origins of frozen desserts are unknown, though there are several often repeated legends dated as early as the 3rd millenium BCE in ancient China. According to one legendary origin myth, the Roman Emperor Nero had ice collected from the Apennine Mountains to produce the first sorbet mixed with honey and wine.[4][5] Other legends say ice cream originated in the Mongolian empire and first spread to China during its expansion.[6]

Its spread throughout Europe is sometimes attributed to Arab traders, but more often to Marco Polo. Though it's not mentioned in any of his writings, Polo is often credited with introducing sorbet-style desserts to Italy after learning of it during his travels to China.[5][4][7] The Italian duchess Catherine de' Medici is said to have introduced flavored sorbet ices to France when she brought some Italian chefs with her to France upon marrying the Duke of Orléans (Henry II of France) in 1533.[8][5] One hundred years later, Charles I of England was reportedly so impressed by the "frozen snow" that he offered his own ice cream maker a lifetime pension in return for keeping the formula secret, so that ice cream could be a royal prerogative.[9] There is no evidence to support any of these legends.[4][6]

Snow was used to cool drinks in Greece around 500 BC and Hippocrates is known to have criticized chilled drinks for causing "fluxes of the stomach".[7] Snow collected from the lower slopes of mountains was unsanitary and iced drinks were believed to cause convulsions, colic and a host of other ailments.[10][4] Seneca criticized the extravagant costs associated with iced desserts in an era without refrigeration.[7]

Despite this, ice and snow were prized ingredients in ancient cuisines including Japanese, Chinese, Greek and Roman cuisines.[10] Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs show a snow-filled vessel next to fruit juice.[5] There are Tang dynasty records of a chilled dessert made with flour, camphor and water buffalo milk and recipes for snow-chilled sweets are included in a 1st-century Roman recipe book. There are Persian records from the 2nd century AD for sweetened chilled drinks with ice made by freezing water in the desert at night.[6]

Ice cream was made possible only by the discovery of the endothermic effect. Prior to this, cream could only be chilled but not frozen. It was the addition of salt, that lowered the melting point of ice, which had the effect of drawing heat from the cream and allowing it to freeze. The first known record of this comes from the Indian poem Pancatantra, dating to the 4th century AD.[5] The earliest written description of the process is known not from culinary texts, but the 13th-century writings of Ibn Abu Usaybia concerning medicine. The technique of "freezing" is not known from any European sources prior to the 16th century.[10]

Note the sentence "There is no evidence to support any of these legends." We need to tread carefully. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:48, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

When I lived in China i was told that sweet-and-sour was originally a Shanghai dish, later adopted by Cantonese & others. Also that chillis were introduced to Sichuan by missionnairies from Goa, which w:Chili_pepper#Distribution_to_Asia supports. Pashley (talk) 10:21, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

All of that makes sense. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:40, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Milk tea

w:Masala chai seems to indicate that adding milk to tea is indeed a British innovation in the then-British India and Ceylon. If we're sure about that, we should unambiguously state this, because masala chai is ubiquitous in the Indian Subcontinent. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:32, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Outline?

This is still tagged as outline & I'd say it is Usable now.

I do not think it is Guide yet. The Eat section lacks anything on Indonesia & Drink does not yet have anything about alcohol. Pashley (talk) 05:56, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm fine with upgrading it to usable if everybody else agrees. The dog2 (talk) 15:25, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

I believe it's usable.

On Indonesia, there is w:Rijsttafel, but note the following:

[undent] Although the dishes served are undoubtedly Indonesian, the rijsttafel’s origins were colonial. The Dutch introduced the rice table not only so they could enjoy a wide array of dishes at a single sitting but also to impress visitors with the exotic abundance of their colony.[2][...]

Despite its popularity in the Netherlands and abroad, the rijsttafel is rarely found in Indonesia.[...]

Today only a handful of dining establishments in Indonesia ceremoniously serve elaborate colonial-style rijsttafel. Rijsttafel is commonly found only in select upscale Indonesian restaurants, mainly the ones in Jakarta. In July 2011, the airline Garuda Indonesia launched Indonesian rijsttafel in Executive Class as its signature in-flight service.[4] This Indonesian signature dining was meant to introduce the passenger to a wide array of Indonesian cuisine in a single setting as part of Garuda Indonesia experience. This in-flight Indonesian rijsttafel includes Indonesian signature dishes; choices of nasi kuning or regular steamed rice, accompanied with choices of dishes such as satay, rendang, gado-gado grilled chicken rica, red snapper in yellow acar sauce, fried shrimp in sambal, potato perkedel and tempeh, also with kerupuk or rempeyek crackers.[5][6]

So considering that all the dishes in a rijsttafel are Indonesian and we're really merely talking about an elaborate small-plate presentation that's currently much more relevant to Dutch than Indonesian cuisine, is it even worth a mention? Maybe, if those upscale restaurants still exist in Jakarta. Because some travelers will be interested in experiencing aspects of colonial indulgence in the former colony, rather than only in the former mother country or other formerly Dutch-ruled countries where rijsttafel is available. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:15, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

I bumped it to Usable & think it is getting close to Guide. Pashley (talk) 04:26, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Crepes

Re: this edit: My experience in France is that crepes are not formal dining, though they can be delicious. Typically, in my experience, you go into a parlor, stand on line and order from a menu on the wall or one given to you that has various fillings for "Crèpes salées" (salty — in other words, savory — crepes} and "Crèpes sucrées" (sweet, ergo dessert crepes). Your savory crepe comes with a fresh side salad, and you can order drinks with it, such as hard cider, beer, eau minérale, some kind of soda, etc. Then you sit outside and either are called to get your order when it's ready or they bring it to you. I guess during wintertime, you'd have to sit inside, but I have yet to see crepes served at any high-end restaurant in France; usually, crepes are served by crepe specialists. If you have a really hearty appetite, you may have a savory crepe and then a dessert crepe, which might be with caramelized sugar, flambeed with grand marnier and topped with whipped cream, with chocolate, with Nutella and fresh berries, etc. So though I haven't had crepes in Japan, it really doesn't sound like their social context is vastly different from the French one, except inasmuch as French crepes aren't IMO particularly marketed to youths, as opposed to anyone else, and I don't know what the price comparison would be (an excellent creperie in Vieux Nice was not cheap when I was there as a student in the summers of 1992 and '93). Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:28, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

I based my edit on some online research, which says that crepes are haute cuisine in France but street food in Japan. I've never been to France so that was all I had to go by, but if anyone knows better, go ahead and change it. I tried French-style crepes at creperies in Australia and Canada though, and they're generally served on a plate, and the presentation certificate comes across as very refined. If you go to Harajuku, crepe is sold at crepe stands there, usually in a cone shape, and there are many fillings to choose from. Usually, there will be a generous amount of whipped cream, different kinds of syrup and fresh fruit like strawberries or bananas. They have savoury crepes in Japan too, though I haven't tried them. Here's an example of a Harajuku crepe stand, and here's a blog post about the crepes. The dog2 (talk) 14:01, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

The fact that food is served on a plate in no way makes it haute cuisine! What do you mean by "very refined" in terms of presentation? The crepe is on the plate and the salad is next to it, and sure, they make the presentation attractive, but it's nothing that special-looking. To me, "haute cuisine" in France is formal Michelin-starred dining, not a creperie. Creperies are for fun, everyday but tasty eating that's a little more involved than a sandwich but not really comparable to a multi-course economical prix fixe menu at an unstarred restaurant such as the one I went to in the Place Ste. Reparata in the center (more or less) of Vieux Nice. And that wasn't haute cuisine, either - more like good traditional Nicoise cuisine.

I think the contrast is that Japanese crepes may be given wrapped with paper on a cone like ice cream, not necessarily served on a plate. If there are other specific distinctions that can be made, please do, but I repeat that it's a huge stretch to call French crepes "haute cuisine". Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:43, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Crêpes, particularly sweet ones, are served as street food on paper plates, disposable napkins or in little cardboard cones all over France and indeed elsewhere in Europe. I'm therefore not sure that they qualify as a western food item modified in Asia, unless there are distinct Japanese flavours or fillings.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:09, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

@ThunderingTyphoons!: By the way, how much whipped cream do they add to authentic French crepes? I remember the Japanese ones have a very generous amount of whipped cream. When I tried the sweet French-style ones, I remember that there wasn't that much whipped cream, and instead there was also other stuff like orange sauce and chocolate sauce, and the focus was more on balancing the flavours. The dog2 (talk) 00:41, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

They add quite a nice helping of whipped cream in France, in my experience. Here are some examples. More, more. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:14, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

I know in Japan, crepes can have ice cream as a filling. Do they do that in France? And also there is the mille crepe cake, which is basically many layers of crepes separated by cream, so it becomes like a cake. That is a Japanese invention using crepes. The dog2 (talk) 03:19, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

(a) Yes. (b) I never thought of mille crepes as a Japanese invention, but according to this site, they were introduced to the U.S. by a French-trained Japanese woman in New York. If you read this carefully, it doesn't say she invented them: "Crêpes took on further life in the U.S. starting around 2001, when Emy Wada, a Japanese pastry chef who’d studied in France, introduced a mille crepe cake at her New York City bakery, Lady M Boutique. Mille crêpe literally translates to “thousand crêpes” though the cake tops out around 20 crêpes layered with pastry cream." Have you found a reliable source stating clearly that mille crepes didn't exist in France before it existed in Japan? I doubt that, because in France, mille crepes are just like a bunch of traditional French crepes on top of each other. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:41, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ For some reason, I always thought the mille crepe cake was a Japanese thing. I didn't realise they were invented in New York. So I guess then, the only unique thing about crepes in Japan is that you can have Japanese fillings like matcha and azuki, or sometimes peach. Here are some blogs showing the different flavours ( and ). I'm no expert on these, but there just seems to be something distinctly Japanese about the way the crepes are served. It does give a different vibe from the creperies that I went to in Melbourne and Quebec City. The dog2 (talk) 04:29, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Let's be careful: I don't think they were invented in New York. I think they were introduced to the U.S. in New York. I wouldn't assume that peaches couldn't be used in French crepes, though I don't specifically remember them being used in them. But yes, that's right about specifically Japanese fillings. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:59, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Western fast food in China

@Mx. Granger: I've added what I know but for obvious reasons, I don't normally go to McDonald's or KFC when I visit China. Do you mind checking to ensure that the information is accurate, and perhaps expand if you think it's necessary? The dog2 (talk) 18:01, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

It looks right as far as I know, but I don't normally go to those restaurants when I'm in China either. I added this to the Chinese cuisine article (excuse the misspelled "taro"), which might be of interest. Starbucks and Luckin Coffee might be worth mentioning too. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:09, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Black burgers?

Burger King Japan Is Selling Burgers With Black Buns And Cheese Pashley (talk) 06:34, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Meh... you could write an entire long wiki page just listing the special menu items that fast food restaurants in Asia have. I see announcements of some limited-time item like once every few months. --Bigpeteb (talk) 03:43, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Restaurant names

I think it's fine to mention names of restaurants that are known for Western food, but I think it's a problem to also include their native names and a transliteration. This makes the text very cluttered; the section on China is particularly bad. Moreover, if these restaurants are good enough to recommend to travellers, they ought to be described in the appropriate country/region/city/district article. Those articles are the appropriate place to give the local name and transliteration. I think we should check all the restaurants named in this article, and if they aren't in a destination article, add them there and prune any unneeded details from this article. --Bigpeteb (talk) 20:56, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Agree, but also wonder whether it really is a good idea to pick out individual restaurants in an article that covers half a continent (I say "half", because there hasn't been anything done on the Middle East or any of the 'Stans, but they would still qualify per the title), especially several restaurants in a single city like Shanghai.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:12, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm fine with Bigpeteb's proposed solution as well. And with regards to the Middle East, I have no problem including them, and I in fact added a small bit about milk tea in Yemen, which is similar to Indian masala chai, since I had it in a Yemeni restaurant, but unfortunately, I don't know much about Middle Eastern food. The dog2 (talk) 18:10, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Tea?

Coffee is okay in the article, but tea is rather Asian food in the West, not the other way.--Hnishy63 (talk) 06:27, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd say the recent deletion of the entire Tea section was a blunder. Other opinions?

Yes, tea originated in Asia. So did curry but we mention Japanese curries. The tea in much of Asia is not at all what a Western tea-drinker is used to, & some of the differences should be described in this article. Pashley (talk) 03:00, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Curry was introduced to Japan in the 1870's by sailors (military and civilian) who went to Western countries. So it is recognized as a yoshoku (Western style) dish. Original (Indian) style curry came to Japan much later - the first Indian restaurant in Japan, Nair's, opened in 1949. On the other hand, tea in Japan has about 12 centuries of history (and at least 20 centuries in China). Very different.--Hnishy63 (talk) 08:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Hnishy63. Tea is a more common beverage in many Asian countries as opposed to the west. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 03:06, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Tea originated in China, but milk tea specifically was a Western invention. In China and Japan, tea was traditionally drunk neat without any milk or sugar, and the concept of adding milk to tea came about due to contact with the West. So in that context, I think it's appropriate. The dog2 (talk) 02:45, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

In that case, we'd have many more cases of Asian food being listed here because of some Western invention being included. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 02:49, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Many parts of Asia now have their own local styles of milk tea that can be hard to find in the West, even though the practice of adding milk to tea originated in the West. It is just one of those things. Tea made its way to the West from China, and in the West a new way of drinking it was invented, which was the addition of milk. And milk tea then made its way back to Asia from the West, and underwent its own evolutions in Asia. The dog2 (talk) 04:16, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't notice my deletion was reverted. Just adding an optional ingredient is not enough to call it Western. And "adding milk to tea originated in the West" is doubtful. Mongols had both milk and tea centuries before Europeans. --Hnishy63 (talk) 21:37, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the reversion, but would not have done it myself without consensus here.

I do not think where milk tea was invented matters at all. I wrote above "The tea in much of Asia is not at all what a Western tea-drinker is used to"; that is certainly true & to me it justifies keeping the section. Pashley (talk) 08:12, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

On the other hand, moving much of the text to Tea and just having one line here with a link would do as well. Pashley (talk) 08:34, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

As per policy, status quo bias applies in the absence of a consensus. What I know for sure is that in places like Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand and Myanmar, milk tea was introduced by the British. Yes, all these places have Chinese tea that was introduced by Chinese immigrants, and Myanmar also has its own local Burmese tea, but milk tea specifically was a result of British influences. The main differences is that British people usually add fresh milk and sugar to their tea, while people in Singapore, Malaysia or Hong Kong usually add evaporated milk and sugar or condensed milk, because it was cheaper than using fresh milk. And the practice of tea drinking was most certainly popularised in India by the British, who originally brought the plant over from China. And of course, Indian innovation resulted in the development of masala chai from British milk tea. The dog2 (talk) 22:21, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Then, the section's title should be say "British milk tea" with a much shorter text. Currently the bulk of the section describes tea in Asia without Western influence.--Hnishy63 (talk) 23:29, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Being fair also means that we have to mention that tea originally came from China. But I'm happy to consider a re-write that places more emphasis on how British milk tea was adapted in many places. I've been to Japan so I know that Japanese tea is traditionally drunk without milk and sugar. Milk tea in Japan almost certainly came about through contact with the British even though Japan was not a British colony. And Taiwanese bubble tea is a 20th century invention, so it was most certainly inspired by Western practices. Taiwan in the 2nd half of the 20th century was strongly influenced by American culture. The dog2 (talk) 00:03, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, please emphasise the British bit. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 01:20, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

We could certainly rename the section to "milk tea". Tentatively, I have removed the mention of tea-growing regions in China given that Chinese tea plantations pre-date European contact, but tea growing was introduced to India, Sri Lanka and Malaysia by the British, so those should stay. The dog2 (talk) 14:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)