Talk:Cuisine of Britain and Ireland

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Britain not especially known for its cheeses?[edit]

I thought it was. Maybe not as much as France, but there are quite a few excellent English cheeses. Cheddar may be the most famous, but there are many others, including Cheshire, double Gloucester, Stilton, and that's just off the top of my head. I consider England an excellent country for cheese. I'm much less familiar with other nations in the British Isles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:01, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Well, I always think that in the States, cheddar is the standard if you buy cheese, at least of the British types. But by all means we should include all the important kinds of cheeses; just that cheddar is the one everyone knows.
When it comes to cheeses, I think Switzerland and Italy are so well known for their cheeses. Really, though, most of the western European countries have good cheeses. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:42, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
I agree. France is also extremely well-known for its cheeses, but yeah, Europe is full of good cheese. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:46, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
I think that it's a lot to do with the fact that, in Asia, many people don't consume dairy products at all. Otherwise, I think cheese would have been more widespread around the world. As it is, cheese is really a European/North American thing. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:50, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
Depends where. Dairy products are very widespread in the Middle East, Central Asia, South Asia, and places like Mongolia and Tibet. Where they're rare is Southeast Asia and most of East Asia.
By the way, head to England when you can. You'll love the variety and quality of cheeses you can get in your local supermarket, without even going to a cheesemonger. And that's far from the only really enjoyable thing about a visit. I've only been to London once so far, but it was a 2-week trip and I loved it! I had a side trip to Belfast, too, and enjoyed that visit as well.
One point that should be made about British food is that it had a bad reputation as bland and not that tasty, but that's a pretty outdated view, not just because of the taste for spicy food like curries and peri-peri chicken (which was popular in a local, well, they don't call them diners there - luncheonette? - that was not presented as anything but English) but also because the traditional food itself is often of a high standard, or at least, that was my experience.
I would have thought that the Sunday roast was already mentioned in the United Kingdom article, or perhaps England. Is it? Sunday roasts are really fun. And of course there's tea, and fish & chips can be great if you know where to go (and usually quite acceptable if you don't). Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:57, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
One of my best friends is a native Scot who is loath to waste an opportunity to bash his home country's cuisine. A few years ago, for our own edification but also to prove him wrong, my wife and I embarked on a little project of compiling recipes for, and cooking, traditional British foods that looked tasty to us. Suffice it to say I now have a real appreciation for the cuisine. Traditional Sunday roast with onion gravy and Yorkshire pudding is one of my favorite dinners, especially when the weather starts to get cold. Cock-a-leekie soup, too, preferably with the prunes grated into the broth rather than added whole. I even love Marmite! -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:22, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

I have been thinking of starting this article for months now, and am glad SelfieCity has taken the plunge. I'm also glad that Ikan and Andre both appreciate British cuisine, hopefully you will translate your experiences and enthusiasm into the article (and also tell your friends!)

This one will be on my watchlist for sure, and when I've finally got the York article to the level it needs, it will no doubt be on my to-do list with much to add.

It's not for me to judge how well-known British cheeses are elsewhere, but I can point you to my own contributions at Cheese#England and the delightfully punny British Cheese Board for further information on this. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:20, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm far from an expert on the cuisine of the region, but it was on WV:RA and I thought I might as well start it, since at least I know something. It's great to see others improve the article.
I'll probably continue to add information from related articles if you guys don't mind. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:05, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Sources[edit]

United Kingdom#Eat has quite a bit of information

England#Eat has useful information

Scotland#Eat is quite useful

Wales#Eat has a bit of information

Ireland#Eat is interesting

Northern Ireland#Eat has just a bit of information

No reason to reinvent the wheel - there's much more there (especially in the UK article) than there is here. And then the question is how much of it to move here and how much to leave there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:25, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Also, note Cheese#England and Cheese#Wales Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:26, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
I've added quite a lot of information about specific meals from United Kingdom#Eat, and it has brought this cuisine article up to usable status already. It's now around 16,000 bytes in all. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:36, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
Thanks! Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:49, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, sure. Just want to check that I haven't removed too much from the original section or anything like that. However, I think what we've done here by moving content from eat sections to a separate cuisine article could be done for more countries — almost all of the Malaysian cuisine article came from Malaysia#Eat and similar "eat" sections, originally. One way to deal with bloated article sections is to create cuisine articles. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 02:17, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

High tea[edit]

One of the great British traditions is high tea, and this has spread beyond Britain to pretty much the whole of the former British Empire. I was just wandering which would be the most appropriate section to put this under. And if you ever go to London, I'd say having high tea at the Ritz or Savoy is a must. The dog2 (talk) 20:31, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

I would think of going to the Ritz or the Savoy for afternoon tea, but to a basic cafe for high tea. To me, high tea is eaten about 6pm and consists of a hot dish (shepherd's pie, fish and chips etc) followed by bread and cakes with loads of hot tea. For example see this cafe in Glasgow. AlasdairW (talk) 22:38, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
OK, interesting. I always thought of high tea as a particularly posh and expensive form of afternoon tea like what you get at the Ritz or the Savoy. At least in Singapore, the Raffles Hotel calls that high tea. The dog2 (talk) 23:04, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Guide status?[edit]

According to WV:Travel topic status, if we had "a listing of relevant destinations", this could become a guide status article. Do we need this for a cuisine article? If so, what destinations should be included? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:42, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

This is an important question, because in addition to resolving the issue of whether this article in particular deserves Guide status, it will also resolve that of how to ensure that these "cuisine" articles are truly travel-oriented, rather than being too encyclopedic. Pinging Ikan Kekek, Hobbitschuster, and JuliasTravels, who were the ones who still had some lingering doubts about the current status quo, which as far as I can tell hasn't changed all that much since the discussion at Talk:Food and drink petered out. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:36, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
At this point, I think that the Japanese cuisine article stands out as a good one that's relevant to travelers. Does this one stand up to that one in explaining what to expect in different kinds of eateries? Not quite, I think. One type of eatery I don't see much mention of is the kind of informal, maybe it's called a luncheonette, but it struck me as being like a diner. It was a neighborhood place with regulars and opened quite early in the morning, maybe 6 AM (my girlfriend and I went there early on our jetlagged first full day in London), it was inexpensive, and it served a lot of egg dishes and things like bangers & mash or ham and beans. It also served good periperi chicken, which my girlfriend and I would sometimes get for a quick lunch. I imagine these kinds of places are common and may be a good, convenient choice for a quality inexpensive meal for low-budget tourists.
Also, there's a thread at Talk:Japanese cuisine about whether that article is a Guide yet. Here's the key point:
I think more is needed on Japanese table manners and dining etiquette. You expect to find detailed information on how to eat and drink in a travel guide, in contrast to an encyclopedia article. Issues like how to hold your chopsticks, are you allowed to eat certain things with your hands, chewing your food noisily and slurping, eating the last grain of rice, how to conduct yourself in tea ceremonies, should you pour drinks for others before your own, etc.
By analogy, there should probably be at least a bit about expected dining etiquette at different kinds of eateries in this article.
I do also think that there might be more specifics in terms of places to seek out for x and y. Should "United Kingdom" be covered in one fell swoop, or should there be clearer delineation between regional styles? Same question in regard to Ireland. And are there any specialities of outlying islands like the Channel Islands, Isle of Man or the Shetlands that merit mention? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:58, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
I think that there are a few things that should probably be added:
      • A description of each meal typically eaten, and when. At the moment only afternoon tea is covered.
      • A description of different types of place to eat, and a list of the common chains of each type (so that traveller's don't mistake a chain for a local independent).
      • Etiquette should be covered although it is fairly similar to other English speaking countries - should mention tipping.
      • Could have more on what is available in supermarkets and other food shops.
I would avoid listing very specific places to eat - no "eat sticky-toffee pudding in Cartmel", but "eat vension in the Scottish Highlands" might be ok. AlasdairW (talk) 10:36, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
I do not know much about this earlier debate, but if we can make one cuisine article travel-related, I would think we can make all of them travel-related. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:38, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
Doing so requires specific local knowledge, to be able to tell people where to go for x, y and z speciality. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:16, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
You live in the U.S. I live in the U.S. Many other users of Wikivoyage live in the U.S. I think we should be able to write a pretty good article about American cuisine, but I haven't looked through the Japanese cuisine article, so I can't say for sure. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:30, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
The U.S. is big and varied, so we need editors who have expertise on every distinct (or at least notable) culinary region in the country. But that's a topic for Talk:American cuisine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:08, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────All these different cuisine articles and their various talk pages are confusing me. This is British and Irish cuisine. I expect TT could add some information, but he's often busy. There's a new contributor from London that could be a help, but so far they've only made minor changes for information. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:33, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

I've been adding information, and there is plenty more I want to contribute. But for now, my WV time is focused on York and admin duties. Fortunately, other users are also knowledgeable about the topic, and it's getting better all the time.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:47, 7 January 2019 (UTC)